52 Olds timing marks

[Guest Oldsoldie]

I bought a 52 Super 88, and I can't get it started. Seller told me that it had been driven within the last 3 months. Fuel pump is not working and float bowls of the carb were dry so I hooked up a gravity feed to it. I'm getting spark and it seems like it should run. I decided I would check to see if the valve timing had jumped, pulled the valve cover off the driver's side and proceeded to bring it up to top dead center but I'm unsure where that is. The crank pulley appears to have two notches in it at what appears to be 180 degrees from each other. Is one of these the timing mark? Or should there be some other kind of mark. It appears that a considerable amount of work has been done on this buggy. Carb looks rebuilt as does the generator. Also looks like the water pump has been rebuilt and that non working fuel pump looks like it has just been replaced. Also someone has put numbers on the plug wires with painters tape. Any ideas guys? I'm gettin pretty frustrated at this point...... thanks, oldsoldie

[Larry W]

Ignition timing shouldn't be much of an issue in a no-start condition, if only off a few degrees either way. I may be wrong, but I suspect that the engine is worn out to the point that it will no longer start and run. When you crank the engine with the valve covers removed, do you witness a robust action of the rocker arms, or just a lackluster movement? If the cam lobes are worn down sufficiently enough, it will cause backfire through the carburetor, and lead you to suspect that you have an ignition timing problem. Along with this, you'll probably have low and uneven compression readings and low oil pressure. Try starting the engine by pouring about one teaspoon of gas down the carburetor, keeping a fire extinguisher handy. If the engine starts, make note of the oil pressure, and look for signs of lubrication reaching the rocker arms. I may be wrong, but your engine may be in need of a complete overhaul. Good luck! Larry W.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Larry W (see edit history)

[PONTIAC1953]

remove number one spark plug, when you feel compression building up (coil wire removed, and someone bumping the starter over to turn the crank) then you'll know which mark on the harmonic balancer that's getting close to the pointer, to paint bright yellow.

[PONTIAC1953]

once you have the mark painted and it meets the pointer, you're either at top dead center, or you're at the end of the exhaust stroke.

[Guest Old Codger]

Oldsoldie,,,,Try starting at the beginning...Do you have spark or no? No spark?...Why?...Good place to start is take the distributor cap off, and see if the points are opening and closing...Is there a spark across the points? But you say you have spark..Correct?

If you've got spark, then it will at least cough and bark even if it might be out of time....

If it has sat for any length of time, then ten cookies to a donut, the fuel bowl in the carb is empty...Either prime it a bit by pouring a few table spoons of gas down the carb...Don't go overboard, or a back fire just might singe your hair and more!!!!! If the previous owner said he had it running three months ago, then I'd go with the fule pump is ok, and that the fuel bowl had just drained...Mine does, if I let it set...I know, I know...It shouldn't but they do.

As far as timing goes...You'll see the cut out in the pulley...the book called for it to be centered to be in time, but with my 52, I've found that the leading edge of that notch is what mine likes best. Standing in front of the radiator, the engine turns counter clockwise...That might help to remember which way the timing marks will turn...There's only one notch..not two

I doubt if it's that far out of timing...Points...maybe....set them with a dwell meter....28 to 32 degrees....initial setting with feeler gauge at .16 will get you started.

Remember..the 52 is 6 volt..neg ground.

Keep us informed as to your progress, so we can see if we do know what we're talking about!!!!!!!

Old Codger

[Tedd Thompson]

Yes to all the above, one other thing that may have gone bad is the harmonic balance rubber, it may have slipped on the shaft because of its old age and it will keep changing the timing no mater what you do...Tedd

[DonMicheletti]

If it did run and nothing was changed it should run - without fooling with anything other than the points.

Points can oxidize to the point that, even though they are opening and closing, they will not conduct electricity. File the points with a fine file or fine sandpaper.

Good luck

[Larry W]

If it did run and nothing was changed it should run - without fooling with anything other than the points.

Points can oxidize to the point that, even though they are opening and closing, they will not conduct electricity. File the points with a fine file or fine sandpaper.

Good luck

True, but he says he's getting spark.

[DonMicheletti]

I missed that. I had an experience where, when I checked for spark using a plug, the plug sparked. However apparently under compression it wouldnt. Replacing the coil fixed the problem. A true long shot.

However, If someone has already fiddled with the engine there is no telling what might have been done.

An Olds jumping cam timing on its own is virtually unheard of.

How many miles on the car?

[Guest Old Codger]

Yes to all the above, one other thing that may have gone bad is the harmonic balance rubber, it may have slipped on the shaft because of its old age and it will keep changing the timing no mater what you do...Tedd

The 52 Olds 303 does not have a rubber centered harmonic balance. It is a solid one piece.

.

The single groove is for a engine without power steering. The two groove is for for power steering...the inner grove is for the generator belt. The outer belt is for the power steering.

In 53, the ones with a/c there are three grooves, because the early a/c took two belts to drive it, needing the 3 groove pulley balancer.

If it has spark, then I go back to, the carb leaks down if it has been sitting for any length of time, the 4 bbl Rochester especially..They do need to be primed...or else grind and grind on the starter, and pump the gas pedal.

If there is spark, even if it is out of time, it will either cough back thru the carb, or back thru the exhaust, trying to fire.

When you click on the single pulley and enlarge it, notice those two (I'll call them bumps) Those are the timing marks....When the harmonic balancer (pulley) is placed on the engine, looking down at those two "bumps" are the timing mark....As the engine turns the left bump is the "Leading" mark or advance location. If the engine is timed with the timing mark pointing at the leading mark, then that is about 5 degrees advance....Dead center, Between the two "Bumps" is about 2 1/2 degrees advanced.

Old Codger

Edited January 10, 2015 by Old Codger (see edit history)

[Larry W]

The 52 Olds 303 does not have a rubber centered harmonic balance. It is a solid one piece.

If there is spark, even if it is out of time, it will either cough back thru the carb, or back thru the exhaust, trying to fire.

Old Codger

This is true unless there's little or no compression. Remember, you need fuel, spark, and compression in order to run.

[Guest Old Codger]

This is true unless there's little or no compression. Remember, you need fuel, spark, and compression in order to run.

That's true, a engine needs all three...But to have 8 dead cylinders????? It would run even it it only had 50 or 60#'s.... Even three dead cylinders, and the other 5 had some, it would start and run......Might not pull it's own weight out of a paper bag, but it would run.

If it's got compression, and spark, but out of time, it makes the starter getting past TDC on either side hard to crank over....No compression, the starter will turn like the spark plugs were removed.

So far it's got spark...compression...not known....But it still needs to have gas to make it go bang.

To me, it might be more beneficial for Oldsoldie to go back to the owner and get a little more info...Such as a little more detail on what was done to make it start, was the timing ever messed with, and how long ago? If so what exactly was done?.. How much gas is even in the gas tank. The car was so called started and run about 3 months ago...was it driven? Did the car have current lic plates on it when he bought it? That would tell if the car had been driven in the last year, or maybe the last year that it was driven.

Was it Slick Willy who sold the car..."Ran When Parked"......;)

Just where in the country is Oldoldie located? Maybe there is someone near that can give a lending hand. Doesn't necessarily have to be another Olds owner, but someone who knows the temperament of these older cars.

One more thing while I'm thinking of it...Are the plug wires on the right plugs? But there...even if two wires were crossed, it would still start.

Old Codger

Edited January 9, 2015 by Old Codger (see edit history)

[PONTIAC1953]

That's true, a engine needs all three...But to have 8 dead cylinders????? It would run even it it only had 50 or 60#'s.... Even three dead cylinders, and the other 5 had some, it would start and run......Might not pull it's own weight out of a paper bag, but it would run.

If it's got compression, and spark, but out of time, it makes the starter getting past TDC on either side hard to crank over....No compression, the starter will turn like the spark plugs were removed.

So far it's got spark...compression...not known....But it still needs to have gas to make it go bang.

To me, it might be more beneficial for Oldsoldie to go back to the owner and get a little more info...Such as a little more detail on what was done to make it start, was the timing ever messed with, and how long ago? If so what exactly was done?.. How much gas is even in the gas tank. The car was so called started and run about 3 months ago...was it driven? Did the car have current lic plates on it when he bought it? That would tell if the car had been driven in the last year, or maybe the last year that it was driven.

Was it Slick Willy who sold the car..."Ran When Parked"......;)

Just where in the country is Oldoldie located? Maybe there is someone near that can give a lending hand. Doesn't necessarily have to be another Olds owner, but someone who knows the temperament of these older cars.

One more thing while I'm thinking of it...Are the plug wires on the right plugs? But there...even if two wires were crossed, it would still start.

Old Codger

from personal experience, I would have to disagree with the first part of your post regarding low or no compression, one day I went to start my 1953 Pontiacs which I had driven just the day before, it would turn over and it wanted to start, but too much low compression and #8 cylinder was dead, numbers in the other 7 cylinders were like the numbers you mention. so it was time for a rebuilding of the engine.

Charles l. coker

1953 Pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

[Guest Old Codger]

from personal experience, I would have to disagree with the first part of your post regarding low or no compression, one day I went to start my 1953 Pontiacs which I had driven just the day before, it would turn over and it wanted to start, but too much low compression and #8 cylinder was dead, numbers in the other 7 cylinders were like the numbers you mention. so it was time for a rebuilding of the engine.

Charles l. coker

1953 Pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

Ya, but that's probably because you have a straight eight.!!!!!!!:D:D

Seriously, how many miles for yours to go that low? I've got 108,000 on my 52 olds and it's going great...I get some puffs of smoke from the right bank on start up if I've let mine set for any length of time. But I'll attribute that to one or more valve guides.

Old Codger

Edited January 10, 2015 by Old Codger (see edit history)

[Larry W]

....No compression, the starter will turn like the spark plugs were removed.

So far it's got spark...compression...not known....

Was it Slick Willy who sold the car..."Ran When Parked"......;)

Old Codger

Good point! If the engine spins over real free and easy, it could indicate eight equally worn out cylinders and piston rings. Also, consider that a lack of compression will equate to a proportional lack of vacuum, making it difficult to draw fuel into the cylinders. Hence, an extremely hard starting condition. I know Honest Larry would advertise a car......."Ran Good When New!" Edited May 15, 2015 by Larry W (see edit history)

[PONTIAC1953]

Ya, but that's probably because you have a straight eight.!!!!!!!:D:D

Seriously, how many miles for yours to go that low? I've got 108,000 on my 52 olds and it's going great...I get some puffs of smoke from the right bank on start up if I've let mine set for any length of time. But I'll attribute that to one or more valve guides.

Old Codger

the mileage was 133,000 , and being a straight eight or any other cylinder arrangement would make no difference as to if a engine with low compression would start or not old codger.

[PONTIAC1953]

and it would be worn valve stem seals causing your "puffs of smoke", not valve guides.

[rocketraider]

Disagree. Olds valve guides were generally knurled from factory for oil control but they do wear out along with the seals. 394 especially seemed to be bad about it.

Running a compression check sounds like a good starting point. Also- are you getting a shot of fuel thru the carb when you work the throttle? With this marvelous quality gasoline we have now the float may be stuck closed. Lightly tap the side of the carb; it may free up (and then get stuck full open).

[PONTIAC1953]

kurled valve stems or piston skirts, is a poor excuse for not having the proper size parts fitting in the block or cylinder heads. a valve guide is not meant to seal anything, the valve stem seals that are installed over the top of the valve guide is there to seal and control oil from getting through and past the valve guide.

charles l. coker

1953 Pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

[Larry W]

The OP has been conspicuously absent since the first post. I wonder if he ever got the car to run.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Larry W (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

Charles, argue the point with Mr Kettering, Mr Skinner, Mr Wolfram and Mr Burrell. I'm sure they had a good reason to knurl those valve guides considering the extra machining and expense involved with doing it.

I forgot to mention that worn valve guides can create vacuum issues which can also affect starting and performance.

[PONTIAC1953]

I'm not here to argue mr. Williamson, I will however express my opinion when it needs to be. as for mr. Charles f. kettering, if he were alive, I would ask him, what in the world were you thinking ?, the chevy series m copper-cooled flop. as for knurling expenses, I'm sure the bean counters at GM knew the savings were much greater than the expense. I would also ask mr. burrell, why such a poor intake manifold design ?, what were you thinking ?.

Charles L. Coker

1953 Pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci