Guest landtortise Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Well while pulling the battery out to put in my truck that decided to smoke (literally) the alternator I figured out what came apart it was the ac compressor. So that rules out the HB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Do you ever get an Electrical Problem or Electrical Communications Problem warning on the IPC or CRT when any of this is happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 The SES light flash but too rapidly for me to count I need to just drive it around and when it acts up hook up the reader to it idk if read anything but might be worth a shot. Also when the problem happens the temperature warning light flashes the temp doesn't come up or get hot or anything Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 That bit of info about the temp light may be important. That is another piece of information gathered by the BCM that is passed to the ECM. I think there is an intermittent comm problem between the ECM and BCM. Should set a warning light or message, but not a trouble code though. Should not stall engine either, which leads me to lean towards a problem with the ECM as the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 could a faulty Ignition switch be to blame? Although it never fails to start (other than when it stalls) and i still have power to everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 could a faulty Ignition switch be to blame? Although it never fails to start (other than when it stalls) and i still have power to everything.Doubt it, everything would go black. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 OK, may have a way to see if BCM or ECM is where the trouble is using that new bit of info about the temp.Both the speed sensor and the coolant sensor report to the ECM which passes the info to the BCM which then reports that info to the IPC to display or trip the temp warning light.You can't eavesdrop on the speed info, but you can on the temp data.Hopefully you can use diagnostics quickly enough while the temp warning light comes on to look at ED04 to see what the ECM sees from the sensor, then to BD21 to see what the BCM thinks the temp is. If the ECM reports a bogus number (-40 or 151) then the problem is in the ECM. If the ECM reports a good number, but the BCM shows a bogus number then the problem is with it. Since the speedo shows a bad number as well, problem is not likely with either sensor, but in one of the computers.I really am suspicious of the ECM, because if the BCM didn't get a value for these from the ECM I would expect and electrical problem warning to show. That makes me think the ECM is corrupting this data yet still passing it on to the BCM for display.What does the CRT gauge screen report for the temp when this is happening? That should correspond to BD21 I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 ok you have to simplify it alittle more for me. what is the ED04 and BD21and how would I check the temp data? and what is hte CRT? The temp guage reads around 185-195 when the car acts up on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Mike you forgot. He does not have a Reatta. He has a Buick Park Avenue. He should be able to use a scanner to get codes though. After all it is an OBD2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 no it's not obd2 it's GM2 which while it is a predacessor it's no where near as acurate or informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Yes, Oldzheimer's rears its ugly head again. Now you know what to do when you get an 89 Reatta to solve your problem.In the meantime, get yourself a new or rebuilt ECM, swap in your PROM, and install.Came across a very telling diagram in the 91 FSM:That's your two gauge sensors that go honky, talking to the ECM which then talks to the BCM which talks to the IPC. Don't imagine your PA is much different in practice than a Reatta in this respect. Even if the BCM was inoperative, your engine should still run just off the ECM. So I'm now very sure your problem is with the ECM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 Yes, Oldzheimer's rears its ugly head again. Frequently happens to me. That is the reason I requested he add the model and other info about his car to his signature line a few posts back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I really don't wanna shotgun a ECM at the car they aren't cheap. although probably no more expensive than the other stuff I've shot gunned at it already. I may have the wife drive it while it tap on the ecm see if it gives me fits. idk it just seems like an expensive thing to shotgun at the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 5, 2014 Share Posted May 5, 2014 I think you should go back to square one with basic no-start troubleshooting. The very first thing you need to know when troubleshooting a no-start condition is are the spark plugs getting fire. Can you answer that question for certain when the engine will not start? If not you should find the answer to that question before moving on to anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Yes I have verified it with an old plug outta my truck across a ground when it has quit me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Yes I have verified it with an old plug outta my truck across a ground when it has quit meOK, if the engine is getting spark when it will not start you have eliminated several components as being the reason for the engine not starting and you can cross them off your list.X-Crankshaft Position SensorX-Harmonic BalancerX-Ignition Control ModuleX-Coil PackNow, the next basic step in troubleshooting a no-start condition is to check fuel pressure when the engine will not start. Do you know for certain that you have at least 35psi at the fuel rail when the engine won't start? You should have a fuel pressure gauge in the car and be prepared to do a Fuel Pressure Test immediately while the engine will not start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 While I have not verified the precise pressure when it won't start it does have a fuel pressure consistant to that of when it will start. I have verified voltage at the green plug as well when it won't start. I have pulled the vacumm line off the regulator when it won't start no change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Ok, assuming you have fuel pressure of at least 35psi, you can cross the following components off your list of suspects:X-Fuel PumpX-Fuel Pressure RegulatorX-Fuel Pump RelayThe next test is to see if the ECM is commanding the fuel injectors to open when the engine will not start. To test that you will need to have a "Noid Light" on hand and be prepared to plug it into the electrical connector on a fuel injector as soon as the engine dies and will not start. A voltmeter will not take the place of the Noid light for testing the injectors. You should be able to get a loaner Noid Light from a local parts store like AutoZone.The Noid Light should flash as long as the starter is turning the engine each time the injector is opened. Does it flash? If not I would replace the ECM with a known good one. I agree with you about not shotgunning parts at it but this test will tell you if replacing the ECM is justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 I will have to borrow some tools from work again when i get it up and going again. I gotta replace the ac compressor or at least bypass it so i can run it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 If you engine is configured like the Reatta's this will help you: Belt To Bypass The AC Compressor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 89 Maui Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Been following this thread and I was experiencing the same symptons with the engine running then wanting to die. Let it sit for a couple of hours then it started right up, any sooner and it would stumble then sometimes stumble then seemed to run fine. I had an advantage of being at the national Buick show and had Farnelle and Jim Finn look at my engine and they basically, with no tools, checked out many of the associated parts that could cause this type of problem but to no aavail. It wasn't until the engine died on the way home on the interstate and found that the fuel pump died. The green fuel pump connector can show 12V with the pump running or when it dies. If the fuel pump pressure reads 35 lbs this says the pump is not running up to snuff and the pump might drop in fuel pressure then gain a little back which can give false indications of other components in the electrical system might be at fault.You can obtain the use of a fuel pressure guage at a local flaps, you basically have to pay a fee but when you return it the fee is returned to you. Just remember the fuel pump most probably is over 20 years old as mine was, they will not run forever.The rubber on the ground would be a totally different problem but adds to the symptons of a poorly running engine. Then possibly having a bad ECM only adds to the frustration of find answers.Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 thanks maui but my fuel pump is less than a week old and my fuel pressure seems to be on par while running however not sure when it dies seems to have plenty of fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Ronnie do you know if you have to change the routing or route it the same just skip the ac compressor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 Ronnie do you know if you have to change the routing or route it the same just skip the ac compressor?I have a bypass belt that I carry with me just in case I need it on the highway. I think you route it the same as the regular belt and just skip the compressor but it has been a while since I put mine on to verify it would work so I'm not positive about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 6, 2014 Share Posted May 6, 2014 ok i plan on trying it out till I get up to my parents again and hit the pick and pull that is near their house. thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-a-n-i-e-l Posted May 7, 2014 Share Posted May 7, 2014 OK so this is what I have gathered from all this.1, fuel pump is new.2, dies only when hot.3, some issue with the speedo (does this only happen when it dies or is it a separate issue?)My suggestion is go gram a ICM or two from your local yard. Then order a CPS from Rockauto They are like $20, and check your HB rings whole it is off. These are the most common issues when these engines die from a heat condition. I am only throwing this out there BC this thread has went on so long and it seems to be the same issue through out. Heats up and dies starts fine when it cools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 DANIEL thanks for the thought I have replace all parts suggested several times without a change in conditon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 After 8 days and 107 posts ample information has been provided on how to troubleshoot this problem. What is needed now is some hands on testing while the engine hot and will not start to isolate the component that is causing the problem. You were going through a step by step process to do that. It seems everything has came to a standstill due to the lack of a Noid light and a belt that are available at any auto parts store. That was two days ago, which is way beyond by attention span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 the belt and noid light are on hold till payday. since in the mean time I am having to drive my 3/4 ton ford truck. luckily that is tomorrow. I will let you know what I come up with when I get some noid lights and a belt and do my testing. It has been a long and painful process but I do appriciate the opinions and thoughts given here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machiner 55 Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 It has been a long and painful process...Yah but, you (and Us) will have learned a lot and once you've got it running correctly you will have a great sense of satisfaction and pride.John F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 89 Maui Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I agree with John, going through the tough phase of frustration is how much money must be spent to find the problem and paydays don't happen everyday. Even though my better half keeps a log on how much I spend on my '89, I have to justify spending money on hunches to solve problems but once the problem is solved is the beauty of enjoying the satisfaction of success.Woody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 8, 2014 Share Posted May 8, 2014 I agree maui. It will certainly be satisfying when I get it fixed and running right. I truely enjoy driving the big ol car. It's comfy and powerful yet gets great mileage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 10, 2014 Share Posted May 10, 2014 Ok here's an update for the night I got my belt worked perfect and fired her up and let it run in the garage. Ran for a little over an hour and died noticed that when it died the cooling fan relay would click repeatedly I noticed this before and i changed the relay when it would click the fans would kick on and off even tho while it was running the fans would come on and go off and the temp didn't come up. I did have a fuel pressure gauge hooked up while it was running I had 42 psi and a noid light which flashed when I cranked the car over. Is my ECM thinking the car is overheated and shutting down to keep it from damage could the coolant sensor be having issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 So I let it run again today till it died and without even shutting the key off I threw the scanner in it it showed a 41 and a 21 which is cam sensor and tps voltage too high I know the tps is new and set correctly as per this thread. Any thoughts. I know a tps will shut them down my 96 windstar has done it twice on me. Thoughts please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-a-n-i-e-l Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 What year are we talking on the park ave? if it is 95 or prior then the tps will not shut the engine down. On the other hand the tps can warm up and allow the coil inside to short. This does cause an higher voltage output to the ecm, but only makes the ecm through more fuel until it go into limp mode. I have ran these engines with no TPS at all and the only end up running rich. Also a windstar is a ford. Not even comparable to a GM vehicle even knowing the sensors do the same thing the ECMs are most likely not programmed to function the same under identical conditions. As for the Cam sensor it will not produce a non-start or a shutdown, once again it can be disconnected and still run. I personnally think you have a ICM, HB, or CPS issue. Or the wiring between. Most likely the ICM with your issues. Here is an easy way to check both the ICM (my money is on it) and the CPS (a little harder to do), Run the car until it dies then poor cool water over it and start the car. This will cool it down quickly and let you know right away if it is the issue. do not use pressurized water. Also the water will not hurt the starting of the car (it is not a distributor).Just so we are clear the ICM is the plate where the flat wire harness plugs into just under the coils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasJohn55 Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 (edited) With multiple codes, check your schematic and see if those 2 sensors share a 5v supply or return. If either is shorted or open, it may affect all sensors that share. Remember that a return circuit is not necessarily common to ground, it is a return to the ECM. I am not certain on these but don't assume return is ground. ECMs commonly use the return circuit to monitor current flow (amperage) in some circuits. Edited May 12, 2014 by TexasJohn55 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I have replaced the icm, CPS multiple times with no change in the condition I will try your icm water trick but it doesn't explain the irratic speedo and spastic cooling fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 With multiple codes, check your schematic and see if those 2 sensors share a 5v supply or return. If either is shorted or open, it may affect all sensors that share. Remember that a return circuit is not necessarily common to ground, it is a return to the ECM. I am not certain on these but don't assume return is ground. ECMs commonly use the return circuit to monitor current flow (amperage) in some circuits.Very good critical thinking John from Texas! The coolant sensor and the TPS circuit do both use the 5 volt reference signal. But, the speed sensor and Cam sensor do not. Also, the intake air temp sensor (MAT) uses that same 5 volt reference signal and should set a code too, but apparently isn't since he says he's only getting the Cam sensor code and the TPS code.Sooner or later he will figure out what the only one piece of the puzzle is that is common to all of his stated symptoms and we can move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest landtortise Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 The only missing puzzle piece I can think of is my ECM at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 Go back and read these posts from 78 on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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