Lacquer versus single stage paint?

[Guest dgriff8923]

I am doing a little poll on what type of paint to use on my 18 Cadillac. Does it diminish or hurt the value of this car to use the more modern types of paint, as long as color matches. The original lacquer will look great at first but I don't believe it will age as well as the newer types of paint. Thanks in advance for your feedback, Dan

[Bhigdog]

Single stage with hardener color sanded and buffed will mimic lacquer very well and hold up much better. Please don't do base clear...................Bob

[atlbluz]

You are able top find lacquer? Sherwin Williams only had single stage enamel to sell to me. I have never painted with enamel, so I am going to have to retrain myself. But I agree with Bob, don't use a 2 stage paint. Greg

[trimacar]

I have a 1938 Packard, lacquer paint job in 1975, and it still looks good..yes, if you get very close you can see a few hairline cracks in paint here and there, but that's going on 40 year old paint....so I think lacquer, properly done, will hold up.....

That said, of course in today's world I think single stage enamel is best. My Pierce is painted with Glasurit, a paint that doesn't quite have the depth of lacquer, but is a very nice finish that holds up well and is relatively easy to touch up, which is what I wanted for driving. The look of Glasurit, at least on my car, is almost a porcelain look, not deep but rich, if that makes sense.

[Durant Mike]

I was wondering what the professional restorers use? The shop that has painted some of my frame parts etc says he does all his customers cars in Base coat/clear coat finishes and he uses a brand that begins with "R" don't recall the full name of the paint. Some people I talk to only swear by PPG base coat/clear coat. I'll be having a shop paint my body soon but don't know which way to go. I'm leaning towards PPG base coat/clear coat as they have a good reputation. Any thoughts on this?

[Guest dgriff8923]

I'm in the same boat as you. Still gathering info as to which way to go. Lots of opinions out there. Good luck, Dan Griffith

[Restorer32]

Every year I say we're going to prepare several 12"x12" paint samples, one being lacquer, one single stage and one base /clear and display them at Hershey and have folks guess which is which. I believe that a properly wet sanded and buffed base/clear paint job closely mimics lacquer. Maybe this year I'll do it. Anyone in the restoration business any length of time has had the experience at a show of overhearing someone tell his buddy "now that's what a good lacquer job looks like" knowing full well it's base/clear. It's all in how you wet sand and buff. We still spray lacquer when the customer wants it, mostly to repair a car that already has lacquer.

[trimacar]

Do it! Do it! Have a voting box to see if people can a) tell which is which and which they think is the nicest looking finish.

I'd like to see further testing, too.

-Do the three samples and put them outside for a year in a place that they get the most sunlight, then compare (I think lacquer would lose this test)

-do the three samples, let them cure, then scratch each one on half its surface. Repair each (not a total repaint). This, I think lacquer would win.

As to the wet sand an buff, that's very true of lacquer too, although a proper job requires numerous coats and numerous sandings, so it's not friendly from a labor standpoint. I helped a guy paint my 1931 Chevrolet in 1966, 15 coats of lacquer......spray three, wet sand, spray three more, wet sand.....5 times....then wet sand and buff the end result. The paint's peeling off here and there now, but for a long, long time, the paint job was beautiful....

[Restorer32]

I can tell you modern paints do last. Years ago when we were spraying Centari with a hardener. We had a bit of paint left in the gun so we sprayed my toddler Son's tricycle with the remainder. When Son outgrew the trike it ended up in our horse barn where it eventually become covered with straw, manure and whatever else accumulates around horses. Maybe 8 years later we were cleaning out the barn and unearthed the trike and the shine was at least 90% what it was the day we sprayed it. You are correct that hardened paints are difficult to repair. With base/clear it is usually necessary to clear an entire fender to touch up one chip.

[barry22]

I believe lacquer can be made to last without chipping or cracking if sprayed following certain application procedures. I would also expect the type of primer or undercoat to have an influence on the longevity of lacquer paint. Maybe some type of additive mixed with lacquer paint would make it just a little less hard while still allowing it to buff to a high gloss.

[Guest]

I believe lacquer can be made to last without chipping or cracking if sprayed following certain application procedures. I would also expect the type of primer or undercoat to have an influence on the longevity of lacquer paint. Maybe some type of additive mixed with lacquer paint would make it just a little less hard while still allowing it to buff to a high gloss.

Well possibly but try to find lacquer paint. Try to spray that paint legally in some states. The nice thing about lacquer is if it starts to oxidize you can rub it out with products like Meguiars M-80 or if too far gone you can wet sand it to bring it back providing the painter left you enough paint on the car. Single stage paint can be done in the same manor, but two stage is another story and when the clear coat starts to go it's all over and time to do the whole car.

Some of my cars all lacquer paint, first picture, a 1965 1200 "A" sedan ( former standard model) VW 111 Beetle I shot in my driveway in 1973, as the paint started to oxidize a couple of years back the only thing that would waken the paint up was M-80, See the link;

http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20834/images/img_0137_edited_1.jpg

2nd picture, my 1969 Pontiac LeMans I shot in my driveway in 1992. The car has never been waxed, but gets a polish every six months with 3M's Imperial hand glaze. See the link;

http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20937/images/p1020752.jpg

Third picture, my 1976 Oldsmobile with original factory lacquer paint...from new every six months would get Mothers wax, when retired from daily driver a six month polish of 3M's Imperial hand glaze from now on. See the link;

http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20832/images/img_0124.jpg

One piece of advise. If you do lacquer read the directions. I had painted for years with lacquer and the VW you see is no exception. The VW was painted over a period of about two months with original VW lacquer, a series of building coats. When I did the LeMans I used PPG and started the process the same way. Big mistake because as I installed the first coat on the hood and rear decklid I set them aside for the next coat which was a week later....no problem when the rest of the car got it's first coat I hit the hood and rear decklid for it's 2nd coat and the paint checked big time before my eyes. I immediately went across the street to my buddy who was a PPG rep. who told me that I needed to give the car multiple coats ( ten to be exact) all at once to avoid this checking, in other words just keep walking around and around laying it on.

Read the label as paint has and does change.

Edited February 13, 2014 by helfen (see edit history)

[barry22]

helfen, based on your second to the last paragraph, your recommendation is to spray all 10 coats of lacquer at one sitting, in other words, you did not wet-sand between multiple coats, which is contrary to what some painters say is best. Would you say wet-sanding between coats of lacquer to achieve maximum gloss and depth of finish is a waste of time?

[Joseph P. Indusi]

I would go along with Bhigdog, single stage urethane. Very durable and easy to touch-up. I think it is pretty close to the old lacquer in appearance.

Joe, BCA 33493

[Guest]

helfen, based on your second to the last paragraph, your recommendation is to spray all 10 coats of lacquer at one sitting, in other words, you did not wet-sand between multiple coats, which is contrary to what some painters say is best. Would you say wet-sanding between coats of lacquer to achieve maximum gloss and depth of finish is a waste of time?

No, the rep said keep going around and around the car and so did the instructions on the can. I didn't read those instructions because I had done lacquer paint so many times before and didn't realize the rules had changed.

[Guest SBOhio]

Every year I say we're going to prepare several 12"x12" paint samples, one being lacquer, one single stage and one base /clear and display them at Hershey and have folks guess which is which. I believe that a properly wet sanded and buffed base/clear paint job closely mimics lacquer. Maybe this year I'll do it. Anyone in the restoration business any length of time has had the experience at a show of overhearing someone tell his buddy "now that's what a good lacquer job looks like" knowing full well it's base/clear. It's all in how you wet sand and buff. We still spray lacquer when the customer wants it, mostly to repair a car that already has lacquer.

New to the forum. I'm restoring an 1890's sulkey/ cart made by Collins Mfg. in Jackson, Mich.. This rolled into the Jackson Automobile Co.. New to restoration and using this as a learning process. Everything Glass beaded, and will epoxy prime. I would like to display this on my covered porch so I wanted to go with something durable. I've purchased a black base coat clear coat. Still would like to maintain an age appropriate look. Can you elaborate on how to sand and buff to achieve an age appropiate look?

[Guest SBOhio]

Any thoughts out there? How can you finish Basecoat/Clearcoat to mimic 1890's lacquer on a carriage chassis? Is it possible? New to painting and trying to decide which way to go.

[nickelroadster]

Basecoat clearcoat is not going to mimic 1890s lacquer no matter what you do with it. I would use single stage urethane to best approximate the look of lacquer.

[ply33]

Curious about this.

The original poster asked about a 1918 Cadillac and this more recent poster asked about an 1890s carriage. Wouldn't both of those have been "coach painted" with multiple brush applied coats smoothed down between each coat with pumice?

So instead of asking if a modern paint system would mimic the look of lacquer (first used on cars in the mid-1920s), shouldn't the question be on a way to use modern paint systems to mimic the coach painted look?

[Luv2Wrench]

Curious about this.

The original poster asked about a 1918 Cadillac and this more recent poster asked about an 1890s carriage. Wouldn't both of those have been "coach painted" with multiple brush applied coats smoothed down between each coat with pumice?

So instead of asking if a modern paint system would mimic the look of lacquer (first used on cars in the mid-1920s), shouldn't the question be on a way to use modern paint systems to mimic the coach painted look?

I'm very curious about this as well. I have a 1913 Metz that (hopefully) I will be painting one day. I wonder if my car was painted by brush and then smoothed with pumice? I like the super-shiny-amazing-see-yourself-from-100-yards type finish but I only like it on a modern car/hot rod/custom ride, etc.

I've got some old wood on the car where it is clear that (at least at some time) it was painted with a brush. The surface that I'm looking at would have not been visible so maybe this was just a technique used in those areas.

[Guest SBOhio]

Every year I say we're going to prepare several 12"x12" paint samples, one being lacquer, one single stage and one base /clear and display them at Hershey and have folks guess which is which. I believe that a properly wet sanded and buffed base/clear paint job closely mimics lacquer. Maybe this year I'll do it. Anyone in the restoration business any length of time has had the experience at a show of overhearing someone tell his buddy "now that's what a good lacquer job looks like" knowing full well it's base/clear. It's all in how you wet sand and buff. We still spray lacquer when the customer wants it, mostly to repair a car that already has lacquer.

Restorer as a Judge and Restorer are you saying BC/CC would not hurt the value of a turn of the century restoration?

[Restorer32]

Assuming the quality of the work is the same, there may be someone who can consistently tell just by looking whether paint is lacquer or something else but I have yet to actually meet that person. Those "dipped in plastic" street rods you see excepted. We are doing an extremely rare 1909 vehicle for judging and it will be base/clear when the time comes.

[Luv2Wrench]

So what gives it the "dipped in plastic" look?

[Restorer32]

I am told it's many many coats of clear. It's funny, you hear some folks say "you can tell lacquer by the deep clear reflections" while others say "that mile deep look is a sure tip off to it being something other than lacquer". I maintain that it's the preparation, application, sanding and buffing that determines the look of whatever paint you use but I certainly stand to be corrected.

[Luv2Wrench]

Restorer32, many thanks for the replies. I'm very interested to hear what the professionals have to say. I'm really hoping to avoid the dipped look when I finish my car.

I very much agree with you views on the look coming from the technique more than the paint. I've done quite a bit of woodworking and have had a chance to see the work of some real masters. One of the traits of very well finished pieces are edges that are sharp but not too sharp... just right. The finish is deep, but it isn't thick (which would seem to be a contradiction). Someone that applies too much clear and sands with lack of regard to contours usually ends up with a very rounded look. Maybe that is the "dipped in plastic" look.... the lack of "crisp lines".

[Restorer32]

YES! You've got it. I refer to a properly prepped, applied and buffed paint job as looking "tight", as if it is part of the underlying metal rather than being a "skin". Hard to define but there is no sensation of the paint being "thick".

[Luv2Wrench]

This makes a lot more sense now and, as always, it looks like it is the painter and not the paint.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Interesting thread. Is there a preferred paint/primer finishing method to prep wood for paint that will ultimately want to match painted sheetmetal - or aluminum actually (repro fenders, hood, etc. new ). This is for the exposed wood "body" & sheetmetal parts to be done in the same color on the '14 Speedster. Or put another way, what recomendations would you guys have for a novice painter in terms of prepping/priming/painting the wood? Looking to acheive some look as Jeff and others note above.

Initial plan is to prep/prime/paint wooden components home, I am on the fence on sheetmetal; half of me thinks I am ahead of the game prepping new parts, and I should take a shot at painting them; the other half thinks after investing in the new parts, maybe a pro will be the better pick to ensure the best results.

I have seen at least one recent advertisement in HMN indicating lacquer is indeed available - in NJ, I think. I have always heard it is the most forgiving approach for a novice?

What is easiest for a novice painter to use? Hopefully not too far afield from the OP questions, and may actually provide him additional info.

Any up to date book recomendations would be good also - I painted one body panel over 30 years ago that came out OK but that's it...

Thanks

Edited March 26, 2014 by Steve_Mack_CT
clarification (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

When working with wood there are a few steps that are pretty critical.

1) It needs to be dry. "Dry" is a measure of the moister content of the wood. It varies a bit depending on the weather.

2) The pores (grain) need to be filled. I used to prefer a paste filler but I recently found a liquid filler that dried very quickly and did a fantastic job. I can't remember what it was but if you need to know I can run out to the shop tomorrow.

3) Like metal, it should be flat.

4) Unlike metal, it has fibers. It can be sanded wonderfully smooth and then the moment it gets wet, it suddenly has 'fur'. Some people wet the wood slightly and then final sand. I prefer to use a hand scraper rather than sandpaper.

5) Edges should be every so slightly knocked down but not rounded off. It is a pretty fine line. A scraper rather than sandpaper helps.

It really took me a long time to get wood finishes looking correct. Looking back I would say that poor preparation and too much finish applied later (to make up for poor prep) were my main problems. Switching to a hand (cabinet) scraper was a big step for me. Sanding wood with sandpaper usually leaves a surface that just isn't flat. The density of the wood varies and it becomes difficult to evenly apply pressure and get the wood flat. A scraper allows one to slice of a layer of the wood and (with practice) leaves a much flatter surface.

Get the wood flat, seal the pores (grain) and you'll find that you only need a minimal amount of finish material to have a great looking finish. I think the key is that thin layer of finish over perfectly flat surface. The way the light reflects evenly across the surface without that dipped in plastic look.

[trimacar]

If you're down to bare wood, seal it with West System epoxy, that's what the wood boat guys use and it's a great aid in making the wood ready for fill and prime.....if it's new wood on wood wheels, and they were properly done (spokes dried to 2% moisture or less before assembly, so that they'd soak up water in atmosphere and get to normal 14% or so and thus tighten), wait a month or so after they're made to seal.....

[Restorer32]

2 thumbs up on the West System.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Thanks guys, Jeff next trip out to your shop would love to know if that is the same product David and Restorer speak of. I am off to a pretty good start as the gent who made the "body" is a talented woodworker, surfaces are in nice, undamaged shape as this thing sat in dry storage.

Going to post my progress in the Speedster section but in the planning/equipment purchasing stages now. Since my frame of reference on paint goes back to the 80s I have a lot to learn as I understand materials and techniques have changed drastically. I am also checking into a product called "Slick sand" to build up surface on some chassis components that still need painting and assembly - I hear that is easier to do these days? In any event, the more I can understand from folks with practical experience in addtiion to reading is really helpful.

If it comes out good enough I am hoping I may be able to slip in under the radar with the "real" brass cars!

Edited March 31, 2014 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[Guest Vince S]

On 2/12/2014 at 10:48 PM, Guest said:

Well possibly but try to find lacquer paint. Try to spray that paint legally in some states. The nice thing about lacquer is if it starts to oxidize you can rub it out with products like Meguiars M-80 or if too far gone you can wet sand it to bring it back providing the painter left you enough paint on the car. Single stage paint can be done in the same manor, but two stage is another story and when the clear coat starts to go it's all over and time to do the whole car.

Some of my cars all lacquer paint, first picture, a 1965 1200 "A" sedan ( former standard model) VW 111 Beetle I shot in my driveway in 1973, as the paint started to oxidize a couple of years back the only thing that would waken the paint up was M-80, See the link;

http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20834/images/img_0137_edited_1.jpg

2nd picture, my 1969 Pontiac LeMans I shot in my driveway in 1992. The car has never been waxed, but gets a polish every six months with 3M's Imperial hand glaze. See the link;

http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20937/images/p1020752.jpg

Third picture, my 1976 Oldsmobile with original factory lacquer paint...from new every six months would get Mothers wax, when retired from daily driver a six month polish of 3M's Imperial hand glaze from now on. See the link;

http://www.pismoderelicts.com/photogallery/new%20format%20832/images/img_0124.jpg

One piece of advise. If you do lacquer read the directions. I had painted for years with lacquer and the VW you see is no exception. The VW was painted over a period of about two months with original VW lacquer, a series of building coats. When I did the LeMans I used PPG and started the process the same way. Big mistake because as I installed the first coat on the hood and rear decklid I set them aside for the next coat which was a week later....no problem when the rest of the car got it's first coat I hit the hood and rear decklid for it's 2nd coat and the paint checked big time before my eyes. I immediately went across the street to my buddy who was a PPG rep. who told me that I needed to give the car multiple coats ( ten to be exact) all at once to avoid this checking, in other words just keep walking around and around laying it on.

Read the label as paint has and does change.

Will lacqer paint bypass clearcoat?  Not happy with clearcoat I see (flaking etc) My 72 ford original paint is fine?

[nickelroadster]

The clearcoats that you see are failing if they are peeling off.  Single stage paints can fail also.  Modern clearcoats will usually last longer than single stage paints but when paint fails, it fails regardless of whether it is single or two stage.  Any kind of paint will last a lot longer if it is waxed regularly.

[Janousek]

I'd go with base/clear or urethane SS.  Acrylic enamel would be 3rd. 

 

I would'nt bother with Laquer anymore.  PPG still sells Duracryl but I've had a lot of problems with it using it to repair 70/80's restorations.  I believe they removed the lead from the system and it's fussy as heck to whether it will lay down or crack instantly.  We never had problems with  Dupont lucite doing what this does now.  Maybe the cheap nitrocellulose laquer isn't fussy but it also doesn't last that long either.  

 

Restorer 32 -   8-10 years ago I made the paint samples your thinking about making.  I used Centari, Base/clear, laquer, Dupont premier SS and all were black.   I sanded and buffed each one.  I had car clubs come in the shop and nobody could tell what was what.  The laquer was usually picked last and the Centari was usually picked first.  It was all splitting hairs though and bet if I got them out and wiped the dust off them I couldn't tell which is which.    Our 31' Buick has base/cleared front and rear fenders and laquer on the body.  Everything is rubbed out and you can't tell the difference.  I still use it as an example to a blow hard that brags about the new paints looking fake.   Cut and buffed paint is cut and buffed paint.    

 

I'm painting two black cars in the shop right now and one is base/clear and one is Single stage.  The parts are hanging next to each other and look the same.  I went with SS on one because it is our car that will be a driver and I wanted to spray 4 coats of paint instead of the 7 it would take for base/clear.  The other car was having the belt mouldings a different color so I used base/clear.   SS can a be a little cheaper since your buying one paint and your spraying 1 paint instead of the extra coats of base.   SPI is what I use and I feel they have the best products available at any price.  

[JV Puleo]

On 3/12/2014 at 10:47 AM, Luv2Wrench said:

I'm very curious about this as well. I have a 1913 Metz that (hopefully) I will be painting one day. I wonder if my car was painted by brush and then smoothed with pumice? I like the super-shiny-amazing-see-yourself-from-100-yards type finish but I only like it on a modern car/hot rod/custom ride, etc.

I've got some old wood on the car where it is clear that (at least at some time) it was painted with a brush. The surface that I'm looking at would have not been visible so maybe this was just a technique used in those areas.

 

Sprayed lacquer finishes weren't available until the mid-20s. Until then, everything was coach painted so in the terms of the original question, a brass car or a buggy, none of the finishes mentioned are authentic. Coach paint is still available although I've not seen it in the US. It's readily available in the UK where it is still used in automobile restoration but more often on things like traction engines. But, the Europeans don't have a tradition of ferocious cosmetic competition. Some might say their standards aren't as high. I tend to think they are much more realistic - usually not trying to make things wildly better than they were originally, or at least not so cosmetically.

 

The real problem is that applying coach paint is a skill that is largely unknown in the US. It is not, I believe, particularly difficult but you will have to do it yourself as I doubt any shop would likely want to try something completely unknown or understood. If you do a search on "coach paint" or "coach painting" you will find several UK suppliers. I will probably try doing it myself although painting my 1910 car is a very long way off.

Edited February 19, 2017 by JV Puleo
typo (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

Just in case you didn't know, that 72 Ford truck was factory acrylic enamel. Ford was not a lacquer user for long.

[Hubert_25-25]

I have painted single stage black and Base/clear black, and they look the same to me after wet sanding, cut and buff, and I am picky.  Different colors may produce different results.  The really deep finishes are lots of clear.  My choice these days is Acrylic Urethane.  I am not a big fan of Lacquer paint.  Too old school for me, even though I cut my teeth on it.  I am also painting my car in Glassurit Single stage Line 21.  Very expensive paint.  This color is Brewster Green.  A dark green, almost black.  There is a bright light used in these pictures to inspect the paint and mimic sunlight while wet sanding.  I have to be very careful with wet sanding.  If you sand thru the top layer of paint, you will get a different shade.  I have not had this happen before, so not sure if it is the color or this paint.  As an analogy, If you have a run or sag in your paint while painting a metallic paint, you have to sand it out and respray, because the flakes and solids settle.  It is the only way to fix it.  I talked to the Glassurit rep, and they told me that the best way to fix my paint was to paint it again with single stage Line 21, then follow it with their clear coat, so I have something to wet sand that will not go thru the top layer of color.  So much for single stage.  So here is how I think you should decide.  If you want to just paint your car, and accept some orange peel, use a single stage.  If you want to see an undistorted mirror reflection ( show finish), spray Base/Clear, and expect to sand off the top layer of a couple coats of clear.  

Hugh     

[Hubert_25-25]

Someone had a question on cutting and buffing.  Here is what I use.  You can get it all from Oreilly or Autozone. 

1. 2,000 sand Paper.  Wet sanding fixes a lot of minor mistakes.  Once the paint is hard, you can wet sand (Always with a hand block) using 2000 sand paper.  Fold the 9x11 sandpaper into 4 long strips, crease with your fingernail, and tear on the crease lines.

2. Use a bucket of water or water spray bottle.  Sand a little and wipe off the sanded paint with paper towel.  Only sand until you see small pin holes in the top finish.  Oversanding could lead to a repaint. 

3. 5,000 sanding pad.  Use this wet to remove some of the sanding scratches.  Dry with paper towel afterward.

         Polishing – Keep the polishing rags separate.  Use terry cloth or cotton T shirt rags.

4. #1 Meguiars Medium Cut Cleaner

5. #2 Meguiars Fine Cut Cleaner

6. #3 Meguiars Machine cut or you may prefer #9 Meguiars Swirl remover.

Hugh

[trimacar]

My '31 Pierce is painted with Glassurit single stage.  I really like it.  It's fairly easy to touch up, and it has a nice appearance.  It's not as "deep" as the old time lacquers, but it's very durable.  It almost has a porcelain look to it.

 

I'm not a fan of clear coat, but that's just personal, I like a good quality single stage.

 

As far as sanding, with a very fine grit you might be OK sanding with your hand behind the paper, but I've seen many a ripple caused by finger pressure on sandpaper.  One thinks it's "equal pressure" but it's not....so a sanding block is the way to go.

[Guest SaddleRider]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2014 at 9:53 AM, dgriff8923 said:

I . The original lacquer will look great ....

 

Wow " original lacquer" on a pre mid 1920's car ?     Not possible.   Elsewhere in this "thread" you can find explanations of how cars were painted prior to the invention of the lacquer spraying technique that started in the mid 1920's.

 

What to do these days ?  I agree with Restorer - take advantage of the vastly superior "look" and durability of modern paint chemistry.