1925-25 Buick Standard, rear axle keyway broken

[Buick Downunder]

Hi All

I have finally had time to get back to look at the Buick. It has been about 3 months since it broke down. On inspection, it appears that I have blown a key in the keyway for the outer LH Hub/axle. Can anyone tell me if it is a common failing and if I should be worried about breaking a key off? Everything else looks OK.

Also, I am chasing a replacement inner band (handbrake) locater screw and clip, as well as the spring which connects to this (left hand side). Mine has been rubbing between the wheel and drum and has now broken the spring.

Regards

Ben

[Leif Holmberg]

Ben.Never heard about that before.The nut must have been loose.

Leif in Sweden.

[Mark Shaw]

Ben,

I had a similar problem with my 13 Buick. My axle cracked at the top of the keyway; I think it was because the key was not seated all the way into the keyway.

I may have the parts you need, but will need you to post photos to be sure...

Edited November 24, 2013 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[trp3141592]

Hi,

Keys are not hardened--for this exact reason. They are supposed to shear before damaging the axle or hub.

I am not sure if your hub is a taper-fit to the axle or not. If it is the taper-type axle, do NOT use any oil or never-Seize on the taper when reassembling. De-grease the two parts before reassembling. A lubricant in this location will allow unintended movement between the hub and axle, resulting in a sheared key.

--Tom

[ROD W]

Ben

The key should be a tight fit in the axle and and into the hub . The axle nut needs to be done up tightly, pulling the hub tightly onto the tapered axle, I this is loose it will create wear in the hub and a broken key. When the axle nut is done up, there should be no play in the wheel . There is also a lock ring with tabs to prevent the nut comming loose. On

a car I had, the hub was very worn. unable to get it tight on the axle. so I wrapped a thin piece of metal around the axle, then it could be pulled tight. How did you go with your

clutch.

Rod

[Buick Downunder]

Ben,

I had a similar problem with my 13 Buick. My axle cracked at the top of the keyway; I think it was because the key was not seated all the way into the keyway.

I may have the parts you need, but will need you to post photos to be sure...

Hi Mark

Thanks for this. The parts I am trying to locate is the screw, spring and flat retainer. I'll try to attach a photo.

[Buick Downunder]

Hi Rod

I haven't looked at the clutch as yet! That will be next.

Regards

Ben

[Brian_Heil]

As Mark Shaw can attest, I had an axle / hub joint loosen up on the BCA Pre War Division After Tour this past Summer. In my case, I could feel this joint slip as I pulled away from a stop, like a bad universal joint ‘slip then catch’ feeling in the seat of your pants.<O:p></O:p>

Upon inspection after Lunch (important to eat first on Tours), we found the large axle nut loose and the tapered hub/shaft joint very greasy. We cleaned everything up and could see that the shaft had been welded up years ago and then the taper and keyway re-cut. So, not the first time this joint had gotten loose in the life of my car. Also, the taper machining looked pretty poor and we guessed it did not match the hub taper very well. More on that next.<O:p></O:p>

With things clean, Mark fabricated a soft aluminum shim out of a soft drink can to help with the tapers matching, wrapping the taper but not the key with a single piece of the can. My key and keyways still looked OK (I caught the issue very quickly) although not great due to what I would guess as 60 year old welding and machining repairs. We tightened the nut with a huge breaker bar and me standing on it. Also important is the star eared washer under the head of this nut, with the locking ears you turn up, which was missing on my car. My thanks to Bill McLaughlin for donating one to the cause out of his magic trunk of parts he carries (I believe I still owe him several cocktails, OK, one for Mr. Shaw too).<O:p></O:p>

Another day of Touring, a 180 mile blast home from the Tour, and a Summer of touring and the joint is still tight. Also important is that this happened on a Tour with more good help then you could buy. Just look at this Tour Help List:

Several Supervisors (very important) and they can create shade if you position them properly

Picnic Table Movers to create a workbench

Soft Drink Can donator

Shim Fabricator

Cleaning Rag donator

Huge Breaker Bar lender

Huge Socket lender

Locking Washer donator

Hand Cleaner donator

My thanks again to all who helped!

[DonMicheletti]

Ben,

Jeff Kearny has the reproduced springs. He has posted on this site. As to the screw and plate, I had to make those myself for my '18 -E45. I am not aware of anyone reproducing those.

Getting that spring in is fun. On the '18 it is in the back against the backing plate.

Don

[Buick Downunder]

Thanks Brian and Don. That gives me plenty of background to go on - unless someone knows the size of the key (I'll use the other side as a clue). It might be best to clean it up also.

I can certainly sources a screw and salvage the existing retaining clip, but the spring was the main issue. I'll chase this up and see if they are still available.

Many thanks fellow pre-war Buick fans.

Regards

Ben

[Buick Downunder]

Unfortunately the brake springs for sale with Jeff Kearney are for MASTER. I am on the hunt for one for the STANDARD if anyone has a spare?

Regards

Ben

[Mark Shaw]

Ben,

I have a spare rear axle assembly from a 1925 Buick Master. The parts are buried in my heavy parts closet, but I can dig them out when I get some help.

Are you sure the master and standard brake parts you need are not the same?

[dibarlaw]

Mark:

I would have jumped in sooner on Ben's dilemma But he already contacted Jeff Kearney. I asked Jeff the same question about this spring. Since I have yet to redo the brakes on the drivers side of my 25-25. The spring on the passenger side was a bit worn but useable. So I thought a set to have on hand was advisable. Jeff indicated that his springs would not fit. I have learned that other than a few nuts and bolts NOTHING interchanges between the Master and Standards!!

[Mark Shaw]

Does anybody know if a 23 Standard is the same? I have two local Buick buddies with 23 parts cars.

[Leif Holmberg]

There are no Std. in 1923 , there are 4 cyl.Ser.30 and "Master" Ser.40 and 50,that has a copletely different rear axle than Std and 4 cyl.models .And as Larry say nothing will fit between Master and Standard, and nothing will fit between Master and 4 cyl.models ,and nothing will fit between Standard and 4 cyl.models,exept from some small skrews and nuts .

But a lot of parts will fit between 1925 Std.and up to 1928 114,5".

Leif in Sweden

[Buick Downunder]

Thanks Leif and Larry. I am on holidays now and will have a better look over the coming week for a replacement. I'll have a look at later 114,5" as Leif has said, as well as some modern equivalents.

Regards

Ben

[Fred Rawling]

I have the screw and the crescent shaped clip if you still need them. I may have a used spring but chances are that it will break when you put it on. Let me know at fred.rawlilng@live.com

Fred

[Hubert_25-25]

So now I am back to square 1 with my 1925 Standard.  I have been waiting 7 months after paying for 2 rear axles from a 1925 Buick Standard listed on Craigslist.  I had to file a claim with Paypal to get the seller to finally ship them.  They finally arrive, and both axles are cracked.   The photos look similar, but are not the same axle, The long cracks run parallel to the key slot  on each axle.  One cracked looking clockwise from the end of the axle, the other cracked looking counter clockwise.  The first one is cracked almost 90 degrees from the keyslot, the other about 45 degrees around.  There is also heavy stress on the edge of the keyslot. 

On my car, the axle I am wanting to replace is on the left side of the car.  It is the one that was repaired.  A previous owner milled the slot in the axle wider ( maybe a little deeper) and installed a T shaped hub key.  This is the 3rd picture.  

- Given the cracks, do I keep looking for more axle shafts, and hope for the best.  Maybe require the seller to give some inspection to the keyslot prior to packing. 

- The seller did not have a puller, so I am not sure how he separated the hub from the shaft.  Could not using a puller have caused this damage?  (Correction - he said he did use a puller.)

- I saw in another post that Mark Shaw had a new axle made from 4140 steel.  How expensive is it to do this, and is it worth the price?  How good is that steel versus what was used originally?

- Is using the T key a bad idea?  It looks like a decent fix, but I don't want to loose a hub because of a bad axle.  

- 1925 shafts are square drive and 1926 & 27 shafts are splined.  Not interchangeable, but if you use multiple parts like including the spiders, can you make an upgrade?   I would be willing to try if anyone has any parts, and will pay shipping both ways if it won't work, or purchase the parts if it does.

Any thoughts are appreciated.  I do know that the shafts I need for my car are 1922-24 4 cylinder and 1925 Standard.  

Hugh

Edited November 5, 2017 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

I ran on a similar key repair in my 1930 Dodge Brothers 8 for a good number of years. Eventually I replaced the axle because the bearing was turning on it, meaning the axle was worn at the bearing mounting point, which allowed the axle to move around. If it is working, why change it?

 

I diagnosed the problem when it went "clonk" on just starting to back out of the garage, i.e. on a change in direction.

[Bob Engle]

Restoration Supply has a brake spring for internal band brakes.  It fit my 1917 D45.    3.3" overall length, 2.07 coil length, .470 OD, PN FAS060.  I don't know if they will fit your needs.

 

Bob Engle

[raydurr]

It appears that the used axles have had a rough life. The keyway has either been wallowed out or were cut poorly without the correct machining process. The cracks make me think the axle may have been welded then machined to a taper at some point in its life. I think due to the nature of the repairs shown , these parts are subject to fail if used very much.  There should be a member on here that could direct you to a qualified machine shop that could duplicate your axle shafts. If going with new axles you may want the machine shop to inspect your hubs. If your hub keyways are worn , perhaps they can go up to the next size eliminating the worn areas.

[Mark Shaw]

I priced the axle stock at less than $50.  It is the machine shop labor that will run it up to $6-800.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[Thriller]

I don't recall for certain, but I may have received an axle or two with my 1923. I will try to remember to look when I'm out there (possibly Monday). 

 

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 1:05 AM, Hubert_25-25 said:

So now I am back to square 1 with my 1925 Standard.  I have been waiting 7 months after paying for 2 rear axles from a 1925 Buick Standard listed on Craigslist.  I had to file a claim with Paypal to get the seller to finally ship them.  They finally arrive, and both axles are cracked.   The photos look similar, but are not the same axle, The long cracks run parallel to the key slot  on each axle.  One cracked looking clockwise from the end of the axle, the other cracked looking counter clockwise.  The first one is cracked almost 90 degrees from the keyslot, the other about 45 degrees around.  There is also heavy stress on the edge of the keyslot. 

On my car, the axle I am wanting to replace is on the left side of the car.  It is the one that was repaired.  A previous owner milled the slot in the axle wider ( maybe a little deeper) and installed a T shaped hub key.  This is the 3rd picture.  

- Given the cracks, do I keep looking for more axle shafts, and hope for the best.  Maybe require the seller to give some inspection to the keyslot prior to packing. 

- The seller did not have a puller, so I am not sure how he separated the hub from the shaft.  Could not using a puller have caused this damage? 

- I saw in another post that Mark Shaw had a new axle made from 4140 steel.  How expensive is it to do this, and is it worth the price?  How good is that steel versus what was used originally?

- Is using the T key a bad idea?  It looks like a decent fix, but I don't want to loose a hub because of a bad axle.  

- 1925 shafts are square drive and 1926 & 27 shafts are splined.  Not interchangeable, but if you use multiple parts like including the spiders, can you make an upgrade?   I would be willing to try if anyone has any parts, and will pay shipping both ways if it won't work, or purchase the parts if it does.

Any thoughts are appreciated.  I do know that the shafts I need for my car are 1922-24 4 cylinder and 1925 Standard.  

Hugh

 

Hugh, 

 

Do your self a favor and don't spend good money after bad.  I know it is painful but have TWO NEW axles make  I have been there done that. I like Mark Shaw was loading my 1915 Buick truck on the trailer one day and I heard a Ping and the truck rolled backwards.  Broke an axle.  To only take the axle apart once, I had two new axles made.  Best money that I spent.  I do not have to worry any more about breaking an axle. 

 

I do not think that using a wheel puller or not would have made any difference in the condition of the axle.

 

Also the metallurgy today is far superior compared to in the day.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[JerryVan]

Using a "T" shaped key is not necessarily a bad repair. Such keys are sold for exactly that purpose. However, it was done very poorly on your axle. When they widened the key slot, they only removed material from one side of the key slot. This has the effect of moving the key slot location off the center of the axle. I would be unhappy to see that on an axle in my car. Look for good used axles or have 2 new ones made. It's the safety of yourself, your passengers and other drivers at stake. Get it right.

[Hubert_25-25]

Jerry, 

     You are very observant.  I didn't even notice that the keyway was offset as well.  I was not planning on using this axleshaft.   Hugh

[JerryVan]

Hope you get to enjoy your car very soon. It'll all be worth it!

[raydurr]

Look at ebay item 263309506403. I am not sure if the chassis shown will have parts you may need.

[tonybuick]

hi all here is a picture of a 1925 and 26 axial the gears are the same size but the 26 is splined the length is the same they fit the housing but the tapper is fatter you would need to machine the tapper down to fit the 25 wheels or fit the 26 hubs to the wheels the axial is fatter over its length so they do look stronger  

my understanding is they went to splines because the gears on the square shaft were cracking on the corners

also hugh if you still need measurements of the pump coupling let me know I could dig one out thanks tony

[Larry Schramm]

I think the square shafts would give more noise than the spline shaft.  I think I read that somewhere but do not remember where.

[Hubert_25-25]

Hi Tony, 

      I appreciate your photo and comments.  Do you have a 1926 shaft out, or a wheel off,  that you can provide some dimensions?  This is what I have on the taper on my 1925.  Also wondering if the hubcap is still brass for a 1926, or is 1926 the first year for aluminum.  At any rate, do they fit the same thread?  The OD of  my hubcap thread is 2.800 

 

By the way, dimensions on a coupling would be nice as well, as I am sure that to find one, it will be in someone's coffee cans and no one knows what it comes out of.  

Hugh

 

 

 

[Hubert_25-25]

Kevin was able to gather the taper dimensions from a 1926 Standard rear axle.  I do have a 1926 Bevel gear with the splines, and this does fit in the differential housing the same as the 1925 bevel gear as Tony pointed out.  The taper is a slight different angle, so yes, I would need to put this axle in a lathe and recut the taper to make this replacement axle work.  The 1926 Hub takes a larger hubcap, so I need to stay with my 1925 hubs.  Hugh

 

.  

[JerryVan]

I don't even know who's thread this is anymore... Ben? Hugh? Tony?

 

I'll address Hugh. If you need an axle shaft for a 1925 Buick Standard, then find, make, or have someone make, an axle for a 1925 Buick Standard. Making over axles from other cars, or other years, will make more work in the long run, and may not even work, for reasons unforeseen.  Additionally, cutting an accurate taper is a must. I don't know your skill level as a machinist, but if you're not really good at this, you won't like the result. Also, are you able to recut the keyway if you do decide to recut the taper?

[Hubert_25-25]

Jerry, 

     Thank you for the comments.  I piggybacked onto this thread because it shows that there is a bit of a history of problems with the design of the tapered shaft and keyway.    This is probably ultimately due to improper reinstallation of the rear wheel at one time.  Could also be metallurgy issues.  

 

Plan A - The easiest and least expensive option is locating a 1922-1924 4 cylinder, or 1925 standard axle shaft.   I received 2 bad ones that should have been thrown out.  I am still looking for an axle shaft.  

 

Plan B - Another option is to have an entire shaft made, and I will likely walk out for $500-600 if I am lucky.  I will also still have the square drive end, unless I make a hybrid shaft using the newer style spline on the bevel gear.

 

Plan C - So my other option is to acquire a later model shaft, and recut the taper end and recut the key way deeper.  This is half of the machining of a new shaft.  I don't run a lathe, so I will have to ask the machinists opinion.  If he says he would rather make a new shaft, I will have a spare later model axle laying around if someone needs it.   

Hugh 

 

  

[Larry Schramm]

Been there done that on the axle.  Just have a new axle made and it is one and done.

 

Todays metallurgy is far superior to the original axle steel.

[Larry Schramm]

PS:  Make TWO new axles,(both sides) not just one.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[sligermachine]

one hr cut tapper 5 to cut splines  1 hr cut key  for one.    but to make 2 is 4 hr less in set up time for mill I think Hue that would be probably around 11 hr to make both at same time you would save a lot of time for 2