Where to get judged

[danleblanc]

I'm new to the AACA and judging in general. I've judged for the Cadillac Lasalle Club before but this seems to be a whole kettle of fish.

Anyhow, I had my 61 Fleetwood at Hershey this year where I received a 2nd place in my category trying for a junior badge. I've requested the judging summary to see what I need to correct to hopefully get my First Junior. Before I haul the car all the way back to PA next year, I'm just wondering if there's anywhere much closer to me where I could show the car and get judged for a First Junior. I'm in Southern New Brunswick, Canada, about 20 minutes away from the Maine border at Calais.

[jscheib]

I think the spring event in 2014 (double check the AACA web site or the magazine to be sure) is in Buffalo, NY, not a whole lot closer for you. There have been spring meets in VT, but generally they are in western NY and PA.

John

[ex98thdrill]

Hershey is a tough place to win. Your car may have had the points, but with AACA you have the 10 point spread. You could've easily had a car well into the 380's, but if you had a 400 point car in your class, you could pull a Second Junior with 389 points.

With AACA, if you're going for a First Junior or a Senior, you have to be at or above the required points, but still remain within 10 points of the best car in class. I judged at Hershey (not your class) and I know for a fact that there was one car in our class that scored a 400. The car was absolutely gorgeous, but it really put a hurting on the other cars in class.

Buffalo should be a smaller meet than Hershey, so with smaller meets, you most likely have fewer cars to compete against. If you make the corrections with your car and take it to Buffalo, you should be okay.

You already know that your car pulled a Second Junior. In either case you might've missed First Junior by one point, or you may have missed it by 10 points. You could've missed your award by something as small as a headlight bulb or a cap on your valve stems.

Edited October 28, 2013 by ex98thdrill (see edit history)

[danleblanc]

I know exactly what you mean. The whole 10 point thing is a hard nut to crack. Especially where I'm trying to compete against restored cars with a 19000mi unrestored car. The paint has some very minor cracking in spots but still shines like a mirror, the chrome isn't as bright as a fresh replate job, but at the end of the day, the car is original except for maintenance items and some authenticity issues that needed to be corrected (previous owner's injustices).

To get any badges, I've come to the conclusion that it likely won't happen at Hershey with an unrestored car. I'm also not about to replace a beautiful original paint job to score a junior badge. I do need to exercise some common sense and preserve this car, not restore it. It's about as authentic as it's going to get. So from an authenticity standpoint, it's a high-scoring car. From a standpoint of competing against restored cars, not so much. Basically the car looks like a 3 or 4 year old used car.

AACA judging was a wake-up call to say the least. I'm used to the Cadillac-Lasalle club judging competing against a scoresheet rather than other cars. Next year, with the issues that I addressed before Hershey, the improved version of this car will be a first place winner at the CLC level.

[ex98thdrill]

I know exactly what you mean. The whole 10 point thing is a hard nut to crack. Especially where I'm trying to compete against restored cars with a 19000mi unrestored car. The paint has some very minor cracking in spots but still shines like a mirror, the chrome isn't as bright as a fresh replate job, but at the end of the day, the car is original except for maintenance items and some authenticity issues that needed to be corrected (previous owner's injustices).

To get any badges, I've come to the conclusion that it likely won't happen at Hershey with an unrestored car. I'm also not about to replace a beautiful original paint job to score a junior badge. I do need to exercise some common sense and preserve this car, not restore it. It's about as authentic as it's going to get. So from an authenticity standpoint, it's a high-scoring car. From a standpoint of competing against restored cars, not so much. Basically the car looks like a 3 or 4 year old used car.

AACA judging was a wake-up call to say the least. I'm used to the Cadillac-Lasalle club judging competing against a scoresheet rather than other cars. Next year, with the issues that I addressed before Hershey, the improved version of this car will be a first place winner at the CLC level.

WOW

To have a 50 year old car from the north with that low of mileage, in that condition is incredible. The sad part is that you'll have people who will want to tell you to put it in HPOF, but if I was in your shoes, I'd do the same.

I've shown in Early Ford V8. They have a 1,000 point judging system, but with them you have to get the points and you know where the points are taken. With Early Ford V8, the required point needed to win an award drops as you progress through the awards system where AACA gets harder.

I've lost points at Early Ford V8 for not having the correct key in the switch and not the correct brand of windshield wiper arms and wiper blades. Personally I think it's anal, but at least you know. With AACA you don't know if you're wrong or if you've been misjudged.

There are things that I don't agree with in AACA Judging, there are things in Early Ford V8 that I don't like, but when you look at the whole picture, each system has their pros and cons.

I know I'll get crucified when I say this, but I would love to see an HPOF certified car be able to go for a First Junior and higher awards. Keep the 10 point spread for the restored cars, but if a car owner wants to point judge an original car, they get their HPOF, and then put them in class judging, and then from there all they have to do is get their points and not lose to a restored car.

HPOF has its' purpose in which I like, but often it is a shame to have a beautifully preserved original car parked in with a barn find.

Please understand that I like seeing the barn finds, but I hate seeing an original car that has the points to be a Senior car that loses awards only because of the 10 point spread.

[llskis]

I also have an issue with the AACA judging system. I attended the G/N at Moline this year and got a "second" place award missing the first place award

by a very few points. (Got to be 5 points from the top car) I went up against a bunch of "overrestored cars" in class 36B. My car was restored to be original=

nothing more nothing less. I got docked points because my car was a little different from the overrestored ones. My car BTW is a Jerry MacNeish certified

69 Camaro. IMHO the overrestored cars should have been docked not mine. It is my opinion that the judges did not know what a 69 Camaro should look

like. Will show example: Below is three pictures. #1 is a picture of a stone stock 69 Camaro from the file of CRG (Camaro Research Group). #2 is mine as

both mine and the 1st picture show a factory overspray found in all Camaro latches. (Some vary the amount but all have them) #3 is picture of an overrestored

Camoro. Just like the ones at Moline; of course they sailed right through judging. OK; made my statement--Larry

[R W Burgess]

Looks like some trunk paint chips around the trunk rubber seal in the first picture????

[paul455]

danleblanc's

Please call Lynn at National Headquarters, She has some info about your award

Check the update meet results from the Hershey Fall Meet

[MCHinson]

Dan,

In case you have not checked the updated Meet Results, here is what I see...

Class 27D

First Junior

1961 Cadillac.....................Dan LeBlanc, St. George, NB

It looks like you were wrong about being able to earn a First Junior with an original car. It looks like you have a First Junior on the way.

Call Lynn at Headquarters as instructed by Paul455.

While any system with human beings involved has the potential for errors, AACA does a good job of correcting occasional errors. The system works. Congratulations on your First Junior.

[danleblanc]

OMG. I'll be calling Lynn tomorrow.

[danleblanc]

This is the Fleetwood we're talking about:

Totally unrestored

[llskis]

Looks like some trunk paint chips around the trunk rubber seal in the first picture????

Yes it does but this is a untouched original. Picture shows how an original Camaro trunk looks as far as overspray; that being

said it still has wear and tear on it after over 40 years of being made. Larry

[danleblanc]

What untouched original car is perfect? Mine isn't either.

[Belvedere]

danleblanc, congrats on the "updated" 1st Junior. I recall seeing your Caddy @ Hershey. It's not the first time a well-preserved original has received a 1st Junior. I also agree with the comment about beautiful well-preserved vehicles in HPOF among "barn-finds". For several "first-timers" in HPOF this year @ Hershey, I asked myself "Why did the owner not try class judging first?" A few of those unrestored cars may have achieved a 1st Junior. You never know if you don't try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If the vehicle does not achieve the desired 1st, the owner can then move to HPOF.

[danleblanc]

I thought that once entered in a certain class you were there for 10 years. Please excuse my ignorance on the subject. It's all very new to me.

[Belvedere]

Right. Now that your Caddy was awarded the 1st Junior, you are considered in that judging class (for at least 10 years) now competing for your Senior Award, and then Preservation and repeat Preservations. That's an honor, by the way. For those unrestored vehicles who haven't achieved a 1st Junior in class judging, the owner may choose to compete for HPOF certification. Once that vehicle has been certified HPOF, it must remain in that class unless significantly restored.

[paul455]

The rule is, one class change in 10 years. Dan has a 1st Junior, if he wishes he can send back the 1st Junior badge and compete in HPOF or DPC. If he switches to HPOF or DPC he must remain there for 10 years. This is all new for 2013. I haven't had anyone send back a 1st Junior badge, don't know why they would, however I have had HPOF badges come back so the vehicle could be placed in class Judging.

Lynn Gawel

Edited October 29, 2013 by paul455
spelling (see edit history)

[Belvedere]

Thanks for clearing that up Lynn. I knew I got that muddled after I posted. My point was some beautiful unrestored vehicles could successfully compete in class judging as this fellow found out. If the original vehicle does not receive a 1st Junior, it can then move freely into HPOF for possible certification. Correct? This is what I did many years ago. My largely original car was not successful in class judging, so I moved to HPOF and was certified.

[paul455]

Anytime a vehicle changes classes it is best if the owner contacts HQ so we can explain what happens to any past awards and all options. The 10 year was put into place to keep cars from flip-flopping from class to class. The option to turn in a 1st Junior was new this year.

[ex98thdrill]

Dan,

In case you have not checked the updated Meet Results, here is what I see...

Class 27D

First Junior

1961 Cadillac.....................Dan LeBlanc, St. George, NB

It looks like you were wrong about being able to earn a First Junior with an original car. It looks like you have a First Junior on the way.

Call Lynn at Headquarters as instructed by Paul455.

While any system with human beings involved has the potential for errors, AACA does a good job of correcting occasional errors. The system works. Congratulations on your First Junior.

Congratulations Dan!!

It's nice to see things work out, but it's also rewarding to reiterate the fact that AACA does make things right.

The best way to promote AACA is to tell others how they made it right. When AACA makes a mistake, everyone complains, but when they don't, very seldom does the positive words travel as well as the negative words.

[ex98thdrill]

I also have an issue with the AACA judging system. I attended the G/N at Moline this year and got a "second" place award missing the first place award

by a very few points. (Got to be 5 points from the top car) I went up against a bunch of "overrestored cars" in class 36B. My car was restored to be original=

nothing more nothing less. I got docked points because my car was a little different from the overrestored ones. IMHO the overrestored cars should have been docked not mine. It is my opinion that the judges did not know what a 69 Camaro should look.

AACA doesn't deduct for overrestoration, but they also don't judge one vehicle against the other. I understand your point, but bear in mind that no judge will know about all of the details about every car in every class.

Unlike the marque clubs, our judges don't know, nor do they deduct for too much overspray, not enough overspray, what direction the cotter pins are bent, etc. When the judges only have roughly 10 minutes per vehicle (if that) they can't get that in depth with each vehicle. They also can't crawl underneath each car to inspect the chassis.

Depending on the make up of the vehicles in your class, if a judge is well versed with a Chevy but doesn't know Fords, he/she could judge the Chevy harder than they would the Ford because they know what's wrong with the Chevy, and not on the Ford. On the flip side, the Ford owner could be misjudged because they think that things on the Ford should be done the same way as they are the Chevy.

All I can say is that I encourage you to get involved with judging, start judging and share your knowledge with others. If you don't, that isn't the fault of the judging system. Also bear in mind that my strong points are fire engines and pickup trucks, but if I get stuck judging an Austin Healey, you might as well send me to the moon. A lot of times judges aren't always judging a class in their areas of expertise.

I haven't been able to judge a fire engine since our truck won a First Grand National. Even though I never judge when our fire truck is on the show field, I haven't judged a fire truck in almost six years even though that is always my first choice.

[danleblanc]

I'm very pleased with the AACA at the moment. Heck. I was pleased with my second place. This is just icing on the cake.

Now getting a senior badge may be a bit of a stretch but I won't know unless I try. Ok. I'm hooked now. Lol.

[llskis]

AACA doesn't deduct for overrestoration, but they also don't judge one vehicle against the other. I understand your point, but bear in mind that no judge will know about all of the details about every car in every class.

ex98thdrill: Just a couple of quick comments on your comments; BTW: Thanks for your response.

1)"AACA doesn't deduct for overrestoration" IMHO: They should for incorrect overrestoration.

2)"they also don't judge one vehicle against the other" This has been discussed before. Here is my view. You line up 5 overrestored cars

in a row and then one that is based on originality as delivered that car will certainly take a hit in points. Judges are only human and this

will happen.

3)"nor do they deduct for too much overspray, not enough overspray" Mine did as shown on my scoring review sheet sent to me. I'm sure the

judge just thought it was a sloppy restoration paint job after seeing all the "letter perfect" latches of the overrestored cars.

Anyway that just another point of view. Just will have to adjust in the fact that AACA judging is a lot different that other organizations. Thanks Again;Larry

Edited October 30, 2013 by llskis (see edit history)

[danleblanc]

The Cadillac Lasalle club leans the opposite way. I was recounted a story recently where someone brought an all original 1960 Coupe to a Grand National. He drove it there in the rain and was cleaning it up on the show field when a tractor trailer shows up and four men in white coats and gloves push out a 1959 Cadillac fresh out of a six-figure restoration job. This gentleman figures I may as well stop cleaning and head home. The "doctors" were wiping invisible dust off the car.

Anyhow, judging takes place and at the awards banquet, the results were announced. The original car took first, the restored took second. Immediately following the awards ceremony, the owner is ready to rip the chief judge a new one. The chief judge knew this was going to happen. After the owner finished his song and dance, the chief judge looks him in the eye and tells him that his car is shiny in places where it shouldn't be shiny and that is not how the car was presented when new and that he received several points deductions for it. On the other hand, the winning 1960 coupe was original down to the tires and that the preservation received the top honours and not the restoration.

I've read the description of several of the awards and the first two words are "outstanding restoration." Obviously, there is more of an emphasis on restoration than preservation. Makes a guy like me wonder where I fit in with an original car. Then the first junior happened and realized there is hope.

[Guest billybird]

Congratulations on your First Jr. I'll offer a word of encouragement. Sometimes the Sr. comes easier than the Jr. Usually not as many going for Sr. as Jr. Plus, your car having won is probably right. Granted, the minimum score goes to 375 { still stuck with the 10 point spread } but as I said , usually not as many going for Sr.

[danleblanc]

Never looked at it that way before.

[Belvedere]

But, remember ALL of those going for Senior and better than 2/3's of those going for 1st Junior. Find out where your deductions were by requesting your Hershey judging sheet and correct those areas while still maintaining that factory originality. It's in the details. It'll be tricky, but you CAN compete!

[danleblanc]

Already requested it last week.

[ex98thdrill]

1)"AACA doesn't deduct for overrestoration" IMHO: They should for incorrect overrestoration.

I'll be the first to admit that every one of our cars is overrestored, but my question to you is where do you draw the line? My next question is once you've drawn the line, how do you spell it out in the rulebook and then train everyone to standard??

2)"they also don't judge one vehicle against the other" This has been discussed before. Here is my view. You line up 5 overrestored cars in a row and then one that is based on originality as delivered that car will certainly take a hit in points. Judges are only human and this will happen.

You are correct, and my answer to that is the only way to correct that is to get involved in judging, and train others. Until you do, that is just as much your fault as it is anyone else's.

3)"nor do they deduct for too much overspray, not enough overspray" Mine did as shown on my scoring review sheet sent to me. I'm sure the judge just thought it was a sloppy restoration paint job after seeing all the "letter perfect" latches of the overrestored cars.

Again you are correct, and again that is a training issue.

3Anyway that just another point of view. Just will have to adjust in the fact that AACA judging is a lot different that other organizations.

Yes it is, but that is not a bad thing.

My father and I have put 11 different vehicles on the show field over the last 12 years, and we have one more that's ready for the show field, and another one that should be ready for the show field next year. I can relate to everything that you say, and I will tell you that most of those 11 vehicles are over restored.

1. We have an '87 Mustang that is all original, it was bought new and the paint job is horrible, but it is what it was. It will be going for an HPOF in Buffalo.

2. Most of our cars were painted basecoat/clearcoat instead of lacquer. You can't get lacquer, if you can it's extremely expensive, it's tough to match, it doesn't look as nice and as it ages it cracks like an eggshell. Can you justify paying more money to paint a vehicle that is going to look like crap in a couple of years?? If you allow basecoat/basecoat on any car you've already thrown the issue of overrestoration out the window.

3. We have a '42 Ford fire truck that is a Senior Grand National winner, it has been nominated for an AACA award on three occasions as well as a Dearborn Winner in Early Ford V8. Early Ford V8 nailed us for not having the correct brand of key in the switch, as well as the incorrect brand of windshield wiper arm and wiper blade. Are you saying that the AACA judges need to start nailing car owners of AAMCO versus Trico, or for having an aftermarket key blank in the switch??

4. That same fire truck has a frame that is painted red. The truck left Dearborn with the frame painted black, but when it left American LaFrance it was painted red. When the truck was torn apart it was discovered that the frame was painted black, it was also painted red, and there were areas where the frame was painted black but had red overspray on it. We painted the entire frame on that truck red, and put the parts on that frame one piece at a time after we painted each piece. Is it overrestoration?? YES IT IS!! But at least no one is telling us that we have too much or too little overspray. When you get into overspray, I know if the painter at the factory ran out of paint, he wasn't going to put more paint in the gun because the car was short on overspray, so there is no expert going to tell anyone that they know for a fact that there is too much or too little overspray. On this same restoration, it was also discovered that the firewall and the floorboards were painted olive drab and the firewall was painted black with a brush. There were areas where someone at the factory missed some of it when they painted the firewall. So rather than replicate where someone missed, we painted the entire floorboard red and the entire firewall black.

5. Currently we have a '52 Willys M38 Army Jeep that is up for a National Award for the second year in a row. I'll be the first to tell you that it's too shiny. The paint is correct, but the reason why it is too shiny is because we wet sanded the body when it was in primer before we painted it. Because the Jeep was smooth before it was painted, it came out shiny. We thought it was too shiny so we roughed it up, painted it again and it came out shinier than the first paint job. We also have a trailer to pull with that Jeep and that has the correct finish on it. The reason why the trailer has the correct finish on it is because when we painted the Jeep the second time, we had paint left in the gun so rather than throw it away, we sprayed the trailer. When you look at the Jeep and the trailer the two paint jobs don't even look like cousins let alone something that came out of the same paint can. The trailer shows pits in the metal from where the rust was, the Jeep does not because we sanded the pits out. Next year we're going to bring the Jeep and the trailer to Buffalo, because until we show people, no one will ever believe us. The paint job on that Jeep is still horrible because there are dry spots, runs, orange peel etc. because they were never rubbed out at the factory. It shines because the surface underneath was prepared before it was painted. I can show you vintage pictures of Army Jeeps with chrome bumpers and whitewall tires.

Now that the Jeep is done, now you have idiots out there that tell us it's wrong, yet when it was painted, those idiots weren't in our shop to tell us that we were doing it wrong, nor were they there to see what caused the end result to be what it is. If the people who know as much as they think they know restored one, they'd know what happened.

My question to you is where do you draw the line where it's fair for every vehicle, how do you write it in the rules, and how do you train the judges on what to deduct and what not to deduct??

You may not like it, but AACA is not a marque club and they don't have the means nor the resources to spell everything out in the rules and train each judge to the standard. In the Marque clubs (NCRS, WPC, Early Ford V8, etc.) it's easy to do because that's all they do.

In years past I can remember at a meet or two where they brought in a brand new car for the judges to practice judging on. There were people that came up with scores in the 390's when it should've been a 400 because it was a brand new car as it left the factory. The one time when I was there when that happened, it sunk in to me and I've never forgotten it. You also have some judges that are set in their ways and will never change. The problem is that you don't have enough new blood to replace those who are like that so what is the club supposed to do??

A lot of the other car clubs have knitpicked some of the car owners to the point where they've upset them and they're on a sinking ship, AACA isn't as bad as some of the others, but the problem is that you have to take the time to understand it.

[llskis]

ex98thdrill: Thanks much for such a wonderfull reply. I think we are on the same page. OK now my reply to you:

Where do I draw the line? I think that the AACA Judging system could be vastly improved will just a little tweeking. As long as there will be

overrestored cars and original cars in the same class let's drop the rule where cars have to be within so many points on the top car. No body

else does this AFAIK. Let's judge the car against your own car when it came out of the factory. Bloomington/NCRS/Camaro Asoc/Mopar/ all

do this. As long as the car meets the minimum points for the certain award. eg. 370 to 380 Third Place--381 to 390 Second Place and 391 to

400 First Place. My points are just example and could be redone however they want. But don't forget an overrestored car should have points

deducted if the restoration is incorrect. As it stands now the correct original car gets hit in the points two ways. It gets deducted points for

when judges compare the overrestored cars to original type cars and by not deducting points off the overrestored incorrect cars the "spread" points

are increased. When dealing for example with 5 points at a G/N it don't take much to be out of the picture. I don't expect the judges to be

experts on every model but at least ask the owner for some input if anything is in question rather than just taking off points. Of all the meets

I have attended it is rare that a judge even ask me for anything. Another point that I don't understand is why the judges can not give you a

quick 60 seconds on the rundown of points that where taken off. A lot of things could be corrected right there and then. This is done with all

the other org. as everthing is fresh in the mind of everbody concerned. Thanks and comments are welcomed. Larry

Edited October 31, 2013 by llskis (see edit history)

[Guest billybird]

Already requested it last week.

To each his own; but I never requested a highlighted judging sheet as long as I won. You know, the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" rule. I know people who have got those sheets and placed LOWER than the previous try. Even in a win, someone could have deducted for something that was correct. So you get the sheet, "fix" that and make it wrong. As I said; as long as I'm winning...........But again to each his own.

[danleblanc]

To each his own; but I never requested a highlighted judging sheet as long as I won. You know, the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" rule. I know people who have got those sheets and placed LOWER than the previous try. Even in a win, someone could have deducted for something that was correct. So you get the sheet, "fix" that and make it wrong. As I said; as long as I'm winning...........But again to each his own.

I requested the sheet when I thought I had a second and not a first.

[R W Burgess]

....................... I don't expect the judges to be

experts on every model but at least ask the owner for some input if anything is in question rather than just taking off points. Of all the meets

I have attended it is rare that a judge even ask me for anything. Another point that I don't understand is why the judges can not give you a

quick 60 seconds on the rundown of points that where taken off. A lot of things could be corrected right there and then. This is done with all

the other org. as everthing is fresh in the mind of everbody concerned. Thanks and comments are welcomed. Larry

Larry, you really need to go through our judging school system to learn more about how we do things. We can explain it all day, but you'll never truly understand our system until you participate in it.

Wayne

[danleblanc]

Overrestored cars are ok if that's your thing. The end result is a car that is very pleasant to look at and is more spectacular than those who built it or designed it thought it could ever be. To that however, there is a negative where you end up with examples that no longer preserve and historically document what the car was when it left the factory.

Those who have done a factory accurate restoration will tell you that it is way more challenging to basically re-create the assembly line processes in your own garage than it is to paint and restore individual pieces and bolt them back on the car and having them look better than factory new. There was a TV show here in Canada a few years back and the shop featured in the show specialized in Concours quality restorations and factory accurate restorations. On average, the factory accurate restoration cost 20% more because of the time to research, the time to recreate factory processes, and the additional materials required to restore back to factory specifications.

The over-restored cars, as a newcomer to the club, are a plague to those of us with wonderfully preserved original cars. Some look showroom new and some look like they're a couple years old. The catch 22 comes when you try to compete against a restored, or even over-restored cars and you end up missing out on a meaningful award with a wonderful car. Many people have told me to not enter my car in HPOF, that the award has lost it's meaning, and that they're handed out like lollipops. If I was to paint my car to have a perfect, laser straight paint job that's nice to look at, for example, not only would I be out the cost of the paint job, I'd also be out on the hit in value my car would take because it's no longer original. There are buyers out there who will pay a premium for an unrestored, excellently preserved original car over the price of an over-restored car.

I've been told by some folks in the know when it comes to all things Cadillac before I bought my car was to take the value for a #1 car and add $3-5000 to it for my car as it sits. Am I about to throw that out the window to win an award in class judging? That would be blasphemous. I think the compromise is to have the same rules apply from class judging to HPOF where the car is judged to be correct and well preserved in order to earn the award, not being X% original.

[llskis]

Larry, you really need to go through our judging school system to learn more about how we do things. We can explain it all day, but you'll never truly understand our system until you participate in it.

Wayne

Wayne; Thanks much for your comments; always like to see what you think. I'm too involved now with other organizations like I mentioned. I have been to your

judging seminairs at the meets and understand your system. Your judging system is very unique and doesn't follow any of the others mentioned. My philosophy

just does not co-in-side with AACA. My philosophy is factory original cars;you guys seem to be getting away from that. No dealer add on's period w/o points deducted. When they started that and changed the rule

book; that turned me off. Thanks again; Larry

[ex98thdrill]

ex98thdrill: Thanks much for such a wonderfull reply. I think we are on the same page. OK now my reply to you:

Where do I draw the line? I think that the AACA Judging system could be vastly improved will just a little tweeking. As long as there will be

overrestored cars and original cars in the same class less drop the rule where cars have to be within so many points on the top car. No body

else does this AFAIK. Let's judge the car against your own car when it came out of the factory. Bloomington/NCRS/Camaro Asoc/Mopar/ all

do this. As long as the car meets the minimum points for the certain award. eg. 370 to 380 Third Place--381 to 390 Second Place and 391 to

400 First Place. My points are just example and could be redone however they want. But don't forget an overrestored car should have points

deducted if the restoration is incorrect. As it stands now the correct original car gets hit in the points two ways. It gets deducted points for

when judges compare the overrestored cars to original type cars and by not deducting points off the overrestored incorrect cars the "spread" points

are increased. When dealing for example with 5 points at a G/N it don't take much to be out of the picture. I don't expect the judges to be

experts on every model but at least ask the owner for some input if anything is in question rather than just taking off points. Of all the meets

I have attended it is rare that a judge even ask me for anything. Another point that I don't understand is why the judges can not give you a

quick 60 seconds on the rundown of points that where taken off. A lot of things could be corrected right there and then. This is done with all

the other org. as everthing is fresh in the mind of everbody concerned. Thanks and comments are welcomed. Larry

Larry,

I can live with that, but you and I are only two people. We hauled that fire truck all the way to Topeka, Kansas for a Grand National and I had to compete against two other trucks. When you factor the 5 point spread, the sphincter tends to pucker up. The end result was that my father and I beat the other two trucks by more than 5 points, so we took the First Grand National and the other two took second.

I like the 400 point judging system, but when I went to Early Ford V8, I liked knowing the exact score, and I liked the fact that I knew where they took the points and how many. What I also liked about early Ford V8 is that as you progress through the awards, your required points drop where AACA gets harder as you progress.

The bottom line is that AACA is my club of choice. There are things I like about the judging system, and there are things that I don't like, but in the end, I accept it and I live with it. Most of what I've seen gone wrong has been a case where you had a judge who didn't know as much as they thought they knew, but AACA does a pretty good job policing it. What I've found is that no club is going to satisfy everyone in every way, so you learn to adapt.

As for your complaint about overrestoration, with the way materials and times change, that is a very tough nut to crack. I'd never paint a car in lacquer, but in the interest of keeping things the way they were when they left the factory, basecoat/clearcoat is the first thing you see, so if you ignore that, then you should ignore the other details. I appreciate someone who gets everything exact, but I also appreciate the car owners who take the time with the details to get their car neat. I know our cars are better now than they ever were, and we've put a lot of time to get them that way, but as a judge I also know that quality wasn't always there, so you don't crucify a car that isn't perfect, because it wasn't perfect when it was new.

AACA may not deduct for overrestoration, but they also don't worry about meaningless things like key blanks and wiper blades either.

You're talking about a guy who put over 40 hours of work just in the ladder of a fire engine, but when it was all done, I left the smoke stained rope on it. The ladder has a beautiful finish on it, but it also has marks in the wood and smoke stains on the rope. Those are battle scars that I'm proud of.

The end result of the whole story is that no car club is perfect. For everything one club does well, they very well might do something else that isn't well. All I can do is to encourage you to get involved and take the time to learn the system. I do feel that a person who judges that is also car owner who has restored their own car has a better ability to relate to the cars and the car owner, while the people who knitpick often are the same people who don't have a car that is nearly as nice as yours.

[danleblanc]

You see, with CLC, factory supplied, Cadillac accessories are approved. My original dealer installed mats are ok.

Any option on a Cadillac with the exception of power locks and trunk and main windows could also be added at the dealer in 1961. Some factory installed options such as cruise control could be factory installed or dealer installed. It would never appear on a data plate if installed at the factory. Only on the build sheet. So, what happens if you have a genuine Cadillac correct for your year dealer installed cruise control? Do you remove it from the car? After all, it didn't leave the factory that way. If your car is an over restored car, do you remove your gloss black inner fenders and replace them with the 80% gloss ones that it would've left the factory with?

You see, to say the car has to be the way it left the factory but at the same time accepting an over restored car is oxymoronic. So to not allow OE dealer installed floor mats but to allow cars to be shiny where they are supposed to be dull (for example) defeats the whole purpose.

What car had triple plated show quality chrome when it left the factory?

There is a need to separate the over restored cars from those that are restored to be authentic or significantly well preserved. That's what concours is for.

[ex98thdrill]

You see, with CLC, factory supplied, Cadillac accessories are approved. My original dealer installed mats are ok.

Yes they are.

Any option on a Cadillac with the exception of power locks and trunk and main windows could also be added at the dealer in 1961. Some factory installed options such as cruise control could be factory installed or dealer installed. It would never appear on a data plate if installed at the factory. Only on the build sheet. So, what happens if you have a genuine Cadillac correct for your year dealer installed cruise control? Do you remove it from the car? After all, it didn't leave the factory that way.

If you read the rulebook, as long as you have factory documentation to show that those options were available in your car at that given year, you're fine.

If your car is an over restored car, do you remove your gloss black inner fenders and replace them with the 80% gloss ones that it would've left the factory with?.

No we don't because overrestored is not a deduction, nor is it a bonus in points. The overrestored car does not get extra points for appearance. AACA does not have a means to measure the gloss, so if your inner fenders are 79% instead of 80%, you won't lose points for it as long as the color is correct.

You see, to say the car has to be the way it left the factory but at the same time accepting an over restored car is oxymoronic. So to not allow OE dealer installed floor mats but to allow cars to be shiny where they are supposed to be dull (for example) defeats the whole purpose.

Again, if you have the documentation, leave the mats in, if you don't take them out, you lose points. If the floor mats are reproduction, they don't take points, so if a car is repainted in the factory correct color using new paints, that is also accepted.

What car had triple plated show quality chrome when it left the factory?

I don't know, but chrome is chrome. The guy with the triple plated bumpers will not lose or gain any more points than any other car in the class. Chrome is chrome. Based on the rules, you might be able to powder coat your bumpers in a chrome finish and get away with it.

There is a need to separate the over restored cars from those that are restored to be authentic or significantly well preserved. That's what concours is for.

There already is, it's called HPOF for the original cars.

If you read the rulebook, you don't get judged against other cars. You get your points, and if you're the best or within the allowable points, you get your award.

You really need to quit complaining about the judging and go get your hands dirty. With exception of the Grand National, there is a judging school at every meet in 2014, as well as the Annual Meeting in Philadelphia. Complaining about judging on the Forum is not going to solve anything. As I said in an earlier post, every club has it's good and bad points, and AACA is no exception. If I go to Early Ford V8 expecting everything to be the same as AACA, I've gone into the wrong club. If you've come here expecting things to be the same as the Cadillac Club, you've done the same.

[danleblanc]

I guess the points I'm trying to make here are not being understood.

The first point is that you're already at a disadvantage if you're competing with an original against a restored car. Saying it belongs in HPOF is like saying it belongs on a used car lot. Several longtime AACA members have told me privately that getting an HPOF is like getting a lollipop from the doctor. They're handed out so freely that the meaning is diminished.

The second point is that things seem to be contradictory. Saying it has to be as produced but allowing for things to be better than produced is contradictory.

I'm not expecting AACA to be like the CLC. I know rules are different but judging should put everyone on a level playing field and rules should not be contradictory

[ex98thdrill]

I guess the points I'm trying to make here are not being understood.

No I understand what you're saying

The first point is that you're already at a disadvantage if you're competing with an original against a restored car. Saying it belongs in HPOF is like saying it belongs on a used car lot. Several longtime AACA members have told me privately that getting an HPOF is like getting a lollipop from the doctor. They're handed out so freely that the meaning is diminished.

You are correct, but you don't bash overrestoration. I have an '87 Mustang that is good enough for a First Junior but not good enough to withstand the 10 point spread, and not bad enough to justify a full restoration, so to have a 50 year old Cadillac is even more incredible.

My solution in order to satisfy you would be for you to lobby AACA where you could take an original car, get it HPOF certified, bring it back and get the HPOF original tab, and then put it in class Judging. Once you put it in class Judging, then you make it where all it has to go is get its' points. If I had an immaculate Rolls Royce parked in HPOF next to a Volkswagon, I'd have a problem with that too. I think the cars should be parked in with cars according with their class, but I also know that it's a real bear for the HPOF team to evaluate those cars.

The way to address your problem would be to treat the HPOF cars just like they'd treat the race cars. A car earns its' HPOF, it then earns its' original tab, and then you send it to the class that it belongs. Once the vehicle makes it back to the class that it belongs, it can still win a 1st Junior, Senior, Grand National but then you exempt those vehicles from the 10 point (or 5 point spread). That way the car can still win awards, but it won't hurt the restored cars, and the restored cars won't hurt it either.

The way for you to do this is to approach the Vice President of Class Judging and pitch your proposal to him. Your car obviously has the points, but the 10 point spread is what has the potential to hurt you.

Saying it has to be as produced but allowing for things to be better than produced is contradictory..

There is no way I'd ever spend $10,000 to paint a car in lacquer that will crack like an egg as it ages when I can go basecoat/clearcoat and not have that problem. Lacquer is not good for the environment, it doesn't last, it doesn't look as nice, and the list goes on. Once you've overlooked the style of paint, overspray and shine then become irrelevant. I'm thankful that many of these old cars get restored instead of customized. Every car that is on the showfield is a car that has been saved, so to thumb your nose at it for being too shiny is minor. Having the right color that is a little more shiny is better than having something containing metallic or metalflake paint is worse.

I'm glad your vehicle is as old as it is and it won its' First Junior. To win a First Junior at Hershey can be as tough or tougher than any other meet you'll ever go to. The problem is that there are very few cars out there that are that old that are kept that nice for that long. If that's what we had to depend on, the hobby would be dead.

There are several items in the rulebook that allow for change from what they were when they left the factory. Seatbelts and turn signals are not always correct, but those are rules you could live with. Better paint jobs and chrome won't kill you either.

From my vantagepoint it seems like you don't want to judge, you don't want to restore your car, you don't want to put the car in HPOF, you want to bash the people who have restored their cars get a trophy until you get yours, and when you don't you want to blame the club??