cool57

Vin numbers, carb tag, engine numbers

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5 minutes ago, Rivman said:

 

Tom, I know you don't like it when "secret" info gets out!

 

Would they start with zero at the beginning of production, or, could the dates just be Julian dates?

 

I thought if the numbers were above 365 they were started at the beginning of one year and continued into the next year? I'm sure there was a system but what might it have been?

 

The one I have that I can verify has a 398 engine, a 453 Transmission, and a build date of April. Meaning the engine was built early February, and the trani was built late March, so, kind of just before the car was built. Is that not how it worked for the most part? 

In one of the letters tbat Sean posted, it states that "Note: This planned method should have bee started on August 13, 1962." Could this be the start date for the "1963 production year?"  

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6 hours ago, Rivman said:

 

Tom, I know you don't like it when "secret" info gets out!

 

Would they start with zero at the beginning of production, or, could the dates just be Julian dates?

 

I thought if the numbers were above 365 they were started at the beginning of one year and continued into the next year? I'm sure there was a system but what might it have been?

 

The one I have that I can verify has a 398 engine, a 453 Transmission, and a build date of April. Meaning the engine was built early February, and the trani was built late March, so, kind of just before the car was built. Is that not how it worked for the most part? 

Randall,

  Not quite a secret as Ed mentioned it in post #3 above...and that was 5 years ago! I`m sure I mentioned it and the service bulletin on this forum which is most likely where Ed`s reference came from.

Tom

Edited by 1965rivgs (see edit history)

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7 hours ago, Rivman said:

 

Tom, I know you don't like it when "secret" info gets out!

 

Would they start with zero at the beginning of production, or, could the dates just be Julian dates?

 

I thought if the numbers were above 365 they were started at the beginning of one year and continued into the next year? I'm sure there was a system but what might it have been?

 

The one I have that I can verify has a 398 engine, a 453 Transmission, and a build date of April. Meaning the engine was built early February, and the trani was built late March, so, kind of just before the car was built. Is that not how it worked for the most part? 

Sean has wisely chosen  production numbers which are OVER 730...lol, again, great research Sean!

Tom

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8 hours ago, RivNut said:

Sean,

 

Is there a date on the page where all of the engine production codes are listed?  If so, I'm curious as to how far it precedes the actual production of the first known 425.  Or was a 425 availabe in the Wildcat and/or Electra before it was availablle in the Riviera (Dec. 1962).  Has anyone seen a JX engine - low compression 425 as shown on the list?

 

In the September 1962 edition of Motor Trend, Tom McCahill tests a 1963 Riviera and in the article it states that the car tested is equipped with a 425.  Has anyone ever figured that one out if that engine wasn't made public until December of that year?

 

Ed,

  The 425 was always intended for the Riviera but for some reason did not make the start of production. My `63 assembly manual is dated June 29th, 1962 and specifically mentions the 425 being intended for the Wildcat and Riviera models...but not the Electra models.

  The page Sean has displayed is different compared to my page so it is likely an addition to the original assembly manual. Typically when revisions were made the original page was to be removed and the new page substituted for the original. The page Sean has displayed is obviously after August 13, 1962 so is most likely an addition to the original manual. Very often when pages were substituted the employee would initial the page and date it, at least that is what I have found, so there may very well be an exact date for the revision.

  A low compression version of the 425 would be intended for export. The `63 Daily Car Reports should provide an answer. Unfortunately, I dont think I have that report...but I will check. Great question, I would guess production would be very, very low.

  Perhaps the McCahill test car was a pilot car and not a regular production model?

  Tom

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Tom,

 

Thanks for the info, it makes sense.

 

Now, tell me where I can get a copy of an assembly manual. PLEASE ☺

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The assembly manual I got from ebay, it is mostly y-body (Skylark).  The dealer letter I found on-line.  The date on the assembly manual page is August 14, 1963.  I've updated the scan in my previous post with a scan of the entire page.

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18 hours ago, RivNut said:

The Holy Grail-

 

Where did you come up with a 1963 assembly manual?  Does it have a section that specifically covers the Riviera? 

 

I want one!  (I'd also take ones for 1964 and 1965)

 

Ed

Ed,

 

  There were copies of the assembly manuals distributed to the departments responsible for assembling the cars. There were very few copies distributed, I would guess less than 10 per point of assembly? Gordon Wolfgang may have more insight into this as he was involved with GM assembly, although later than this time period. One thing is for sure, they are not often seen. Generally, there were 2 versions of the assembly manuals, one for the small cars and another for the big cars. The Riviera was included in the big car version.

 

  If you have a `64 or `65 version we could work out a trade! I have only seen one `65 assembly manual and never a `64. I could have purchased it but the catch was I had to also purchase $15 K worth of car and parts to obtain it. I seriously considered it! Then I came to my senses....the divorce would have been even more expensive!

 

Tom

 

PS If anyone reading this has a `64 or `65 assembly manual they would like to sell I am interested!

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Tom,

 

Presently, I'd prefer the 64 over the 63, so even if I had one I wouldn't want to trade. 😁

 

Is there a possibility that using yours, a CD could be made. Something likeJim Cannon did with the service bulletins? I'd be a buyer.  Probably lots of others out there too.

 

Ed

 

PS - I have  '70 Skylark assembly manual in a 3-ring binder if you'd be interested.

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49 minutes ago, RivNut said:

Tom,

 

Presently, I'd prefer the 64 over the 63, so even if I had one I wouldn't want to trade. 😁

 

Is there a possibility that using yours, a CD could be made. Something likeJim Cannon did with the service bulletins? I'd be a buyer.  Probably lots of others out there too.

 

Ed

 

PS - I have  '70 Skylark assembly manual in a 3-ring binder if you'd be interested.

Ed,

  Already available and much cheaper than I could ever get it done

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1963-Buick-Skylark-and-Special-Factory-Assembly-Manual-Exploded-Views-of-Parts/162617319604?hash=item25dcbf60b4:g:00wAAOSwzx9Z1SkC&vxp=mtr

 

Tom

 

 

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Tom, much of the documentation the assembly plants used in the 50's and 60's was very similar to the documentation used in the 70's and early 80's (in the mid 80's computers were much more prevalent and much of the documentation changed), so I probably can identify what it is and how it was used in the plant.  Then I could likely figure out how many copies there would be in the plant.  We had lots of different kinds of assembly manuals, from operation descriptions(OD's) to time studies.  They were all pretty restricted in distribution, and marked to identify the level of confidentiality.  For obvious reasons GM didn't want them to fall into the hands of their competitors.  There were lots of copies of most documents, especially if they could be produced on a Xerox machine (there weren't many copy machines in the 60's and 70's but you could get documents reproduced in the stationary stores department quite easily}.  

 

If you have a page or two of the document in question, send it to me or post it and I can probably identify it.  I don't need much to go on.

 

Rock On

 

gord

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Tom, I saw you posted a link to a Faxon copy of the document in question.  Can you post a page from the guts of it?  Like one of the detail pages.  From the cover and index page, it looks more like something that would be a high level document to get assembly concepts on paper to allow the assembly plant manufacturing  engineers and plant engineers design the actual assembly process and accommodations for the plant to make in order to actually build the model.  Or it could also a derivative of plant documentation to be used actually after it left the assembly plant.  Assembly plant documents were very detailed and this looks more like an overview, looking at the index.  In the former case your guess at 10 copies per plant would be pretty good.  Department Heads and the plant engineers working on change would get them, and they would be very tightly controlled, as they probably had new techniques and technologies discussed.

 

Rock On

 

gord

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35 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

Tom,

I saw  bunch of those last night when I looked, but they're all for the 4000, 4100, and 4300 series cars (Special/Skylark)

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On 10/13/2018 at 12:42 PM, msdminc said:

Tom, I saw you posted a link to a Faxon copy of the document in question.  Can you post a page from the guts of it?  Like one of the detail pages.  From the cover and index page, it looks more like something that would be a high level document to get assembly concepts on paper to allow the assembly plant manufacturing  engineers and plant engineers design the actual assembly process and accommodations for the plant to make in order to actually build the model.  Or it could also a derivative of plant documentation to be used actually after it left the assembly plant.  Assembly plant documents were very detailed and this looks more like an overview, looking at the index.  In the former case your guess at 10 copies per plant would be pretty good.  Department Heads and the plant engineers working on change would get them, and they would be very tightly controlled, as they probably had new techniques and technologies discussed.

 

Rock On

 

gord

Hi Gordon,

  The "assembly manuals" I have seen over the years appeared to be a guide for the persons involved to build the car. There are engineering drawings, just like those that appear in the shop manuals, alignment tool lists, etc...they are usually 3 or 4 inches thick.

  My point was that these manuals, no matter what their origin or specific purpose, are very unusual to find at swap meets, etc, and must have been produced in very limited quantities. Your posts have reaffirmed my assumption, thanks,

Tom

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