Guest Corvanti Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 not that i know much about post-'85 cars, but since you are getting it to run after it stalls, and idles/runs somewhat with extra throttle, could it be a fuel injector problem? and, after reading a couple things on "search" - is there any gas now mixed with the oil. easy check pull the dipstick and smell... maybe i just think "out of the box" too much! on specific reatta problems i can only tell you what i've done since march. fuel pump & filter, crankshaft balancer and position sensor, maf, iac, oil pressure sensor, etc. etc. since i'm hoping to get the cast off my left arm tomorrow, i'm thinking i'll be able to start on more problems with my reatta and have more questions soon. sorry if anything i suggested sent you off on a "wild goose chase"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ol' yeller Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 On a previous Reatta I removed the MAF to clean it. There was a locating pin that I didn't get lined up with its matching hole upon reassembly. That left a huge vacuum leak & the same symptoms you describe. Just grabbing at straws to help you here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 thanks, will check that out, but stupid question, went out and started it let it idle for 10 minutes or so, put in gear stalled, noticed some smoke that looks like a valve cover leak in rear of engine, and low on coolant. added coolant, started it again(always restarts) put in gear, no stall, but could not drive tonight, car behind mine and person with keys for it not here, but my question is any connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Look closer and see if it is coolant coming from the head gasket or intake manifold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 will do tomorrow, smells like oil though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Have you tried the overide section in the diagnostics, specifically can you run the idle up and down with the IAC overide? Perhaps the IAC is clean but defective. The common thread seems to be a failure to idle under load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 2 Seater not sure haw to do that but will look it up and see what I can find out. What should readings be? Someone mentioned to check to ohms on the IAC, does anyone know what that should be?Thanks agaian to all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 BTW I am going to clean the EGR also but can't get to it until tonight are in the morning. Will let you know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 Well at same spot, idles, drive, stall, restarts, brake torque to keep it running. Ronnie, Does not look like coolant, think that is valve cover gasket. IAC readout ed22 is 52 at idle, override es09 is 28 at idle both go up giving gas. oxy sensor ed22 is .39 & up to .89. I have cleaned iac, maf changed coil pack and cam sensor. Agaian this morning, started, let idle for 10 minutes, drove around the block in sub, never got over 28mph, stalled when slowing down, restarted right away, had to brake torque to get in drive way, got home foot off gas, stalled, start, stall, start, idled. I need help!(in more way than one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVES89 Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I think it is your Mass Air Flow Sensor. Get known good one and try it. Also go back and recheck your MAF Sensor to be sure you have an O ring. If you don't have one or by mistake have Two it will run just as you describe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Dave's suggestion about the MAF sensor is a good one and you should try it.... IAC readout ed22 is 52 at idle, override es09 is 28 at idle both go up giving gas. oxy sensor ed22 is .39 & up to .89.... I need help!(in more way than one)Don, I hate to keep beating a dead horse but I don't think you have ruled out the IAC as being the cause of the problem from what I read in your post. The ES09 override is not intended to be a reading as much as a it is a tool that will allow you control the IAC to speed up and/or slow down the idle RPM by using the override buttons on the diagnostics screen (see photo below). Once you enter diagnostics, go to the ECM override section and select ES09. Then use the ^ (increase) and v (decrease) buttons on the screen to run the idle speed up and down. You should hear a definite change in the idle speed when you use those buttons. (Engine running, don't put your foot on the gas) If you can't tell the idle changes with the override buttons something is wrong with the IAC or there is a problem with the ECM.It's important that you do that test accurately to rule out a bad ICM as the cause of your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 Dave's suggestion about the MAF sensor is a good one and you should try it.Don, I hate to keep beating a dead horse but I don't think you have ruled out the IAC as being the cause of the problem from what I read in your post. The ES09 override is not intended to be a reading as much as a it is a tool that will allow you control the IAC to speed up and/or slow down the idle RPM by using the override buttons on the diagnostics screen (see photo below). Once you enter diagnostics, go to the ECM override section and select ES09. Then use the ^ (increase) and v (decrease) buttons on the screen to run the idle speed up and down. You should hear a definite change in the idle speed when you use those buttons. (Engine running, don't put your foot on the gas) If you can't tell the idle changes with the override buttons something is wrong with the IAC or there is a problem with the ECM.It's important that you do that test accurately to rule out a bad ICM as the cause of your problem.Ronnie thanks, I did not know how to do this, but now that I do, just when out and yess i can tell the idle changes, ehen moving up idles smoother when down almost stalled at 12. I also checked egr override es02 &03 rpm changed es04 it stalled. was going to clean it, saw the info on your site , but don't know haw the wires come off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 O2 sensor voltage range is indicating running rich. Should spend spend time below .4 volts in closed loop. You indicate it doesn't get below .39. Probably more of a symptom than a cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 anyway to check the maf, went online and they cost $150 and up, also they show the whole thing not just the 3 screw black sensor that I cleaned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 just saw older post on used maf, 88-90 buick "c" in vin correct?It did not throw code for maf sensor though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 the price for the maf sounds about right.now, a couple of my "silly" (as usual) questions: i just re-read the entire thread and you cleaned the maf sensor - did you use "maf sensor cleaner"?doubtful, but: have you checked for vacuum leaks? on a cool engine at idle, i usually use carb cleaner spray and hit dang near everywhere there could be a leak - hoses, egr, etc. if there's an increase in idle speed, there's a vac leak.the ecm/'puter experts are probably on the right track...i wish i could be more helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 yes used maf cleaner, have checked for vacuum leaks, have not found any, this is just strangest thing, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 new symptom, check pvc it is ok but while idling in driveway, about 5 minutes, started acting like it was not getting enough gas and stalled, now to restate have to keep giving it gas to run. if maf sensor was bad, wouldn't that throw a code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wws944 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Did you ever replace the fuel filter? You were musing about it way back at the beginning of the thread... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 no did not, after fuel pressure check ok seemed that that wasn't the cause, but cheap enough to try i guess, stranger things have happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I'm kinda lost in this long thread. I know the Crankshaft Position Sensor has been discussed. Has it been replaced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 no, it has not, always restarts with no cooling down time, it was stated earlier that with crank sensor would not restart right away, or so i thought, maybe should start a new tread, but wanted an answer to this one for anyone else following it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 I'm kinda lost in this long thread. I know the Crankshaft Position Sensor has been discussed. Has it been replaced?Ronnie, I am confused. I read your tutorial on how to check CSP but my car ALWAYS starts and restarts even after stalling, just have to keep giving it gas to keep it running after restarting after the stall. Could this be CSP still? Get always starts. would a bad o2 sensor do this? Still no codes. Just don't want to change parts if that's not the problem. I will if that's what is suggested but seems odd that with it always starting and restarting that CSP would be the culprit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 The test on my website you refer to is only for an engine that will not run. It won't help you until the car quits for good.The crankshaft position sensor should cost around $20. If I were in your shoes I would replace it just for the peace of mind of knowing it is not the cause of the problem. However, I don't know your mechanical abilities. If you would have to pay someone to change the sensor that might be a different story.Sometimes I do some unorthodox things when troubleshooting intermittent and random problems that are hard to track down like yours. In this case you need to know for sure if the ignition system if failing to supply a spark when the engine dies. Without the benefit of fancy diagnostic machines, here is what I would do; I would connect my timing light to a spark plug wire (any wire) put a plastic wire tie on the trigger so the light flashes all the time. Here is where it gets a little off the beaten path. Point the light at you, not the engine, where you can easily see the light flashing. Now do whatever you can to get the engine to stall while watching the timing light. If the light stops flashing at the same time the engine stalls you have an ignition problem. If it keeps flashing until the stops turning the problem is something else. In desperate situation I have been known to position the timing light outside near the windshield where I could see it flash while driving down the road. Yes I know this is shade tree mechanic work at its finest but sometimes you have to make do with what you have. Otherwise you have the option of taking the car to a GM dealer and the mechanic there will put it on a diagnostic machine (scope?) that will tell you the same thing. The difference is his way will cost about $80 to $100 per hour. My way is free.If the stalling begins as soon as you start the engine of the morning before it warms up then I don't think the O2 sensor would be the culprit. The ECM ignores the O2 sensor until the engine reaches about 140 degrees. If the stalling doesn't begin until the engine has warmed up the O2 sensor might be a possibility.Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 yes Ronnie it does, I am going to change cps first and see. Any tips as to how to change it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 if you don't already have one, get a "1988 Service Manual - Final Edition". here's my threads after i got my reatta, where i got responses when i was dealing w/the crank sensor: http://forums.aaca.org/f116/stumbling-problem-not-sure-where-start-325412.htmland: http://forums.aaca.org/f116/crank-balancer-crank-sensor-replacement-326832.htmlalso, "while you're there", be sure to check the front and especially the rear side of the crankshaft balancer for any missing or cuts in the rubber! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 thank Corvanti, I have everything undone but can't get balance off. I know it is not pressed on just wondering about any tricks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) Replacing the cps is not too hard. Sometimes the bolt holding the harmonic balance can be hard to break loose. A video on my website shows how to break the bolt loose using the starter.Once you have the balancer off, and before you remove the cps, take note of how everything fits together. Be careful not to lose the metal key that aligns the balancer on the crankshaft. As you can see in the photo of the backside of the harmonic balancer, there are two sheetmetal shutter rings with notches in them. Those rings fit into the two groves in the sensor shown in the photo on the right. The sensor mounts on a bracket (not shown) that bolts to the engine. Some parts stores sell the sensor already mounted on a new mounting bracket.The critical part of the whole procedure is getting the sensor adjusted so the shutter rings will pass through the two groves on the sensor without rubbing the sensor. If it rubs it will destroy the sensor. There is a tool made especially for aligning the sensor with the rings but it can be done without the tool. Some people do it by trial & error, fitting it sensor and adjusting until it doesn't touch when the balancer is turned. Others have reported good success by using a thin cardboard, like a matchbook cover, as a shim to align the sensor. Fold a small piece of the cardboard into one of the sensor slots. Then press it onto the corresponding shutter ring. Once you get the sensor aligned, remove the cardboard and tighten everything down. Carefully check that no rubbing can be detected when turning the balance with a wrench on the bolt. Edited August 12, 2012 by Ronnie (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 tthanks Ronnie that helps alot, now if i can get the balancer off , bolt trick from video is great, thaks so much for your site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 I'm glad that my website as well as myself are of assistance to you. The balancer must just be stuck from corrosion or something. The one on my '88 model just slid right off by hand. You should check the balancer once you get it off for dry-rot, cracks and chunks missing. Replace while you have it off if needed.I really hope the CPS will correct your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 thank Corvanti, I have everything undone but can't get balance off. I know it is not pressed on just wondering about any trickssuggest we all go over to your new thread about the CPS: http://forums.aaca.org/f116/crankshaft-position-sensor-help-334080.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 i think Ronnie is right that it is cps, but still can't get balancer off, bolt out, bb plaster used, won't budge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 After 72 posts full of intense troubleshooting this tread sure came to an abrupt halt 3 days ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2seater Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Yes, odd that it just came to a halt, or perhaps overload? My experience with a bad CPS is it just shuts off like the key was turned. Slowing, stumbling and stopping sounds more fuel related or a sensor/ECM that builds up bad information and just can't cope any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 At one point we should just grab all of the ED readouts, preferably while driving (copilot recording) - see "Snapshot". Might even be a bad coolant sensor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted August 18, 2012 Author Share Posted August 18, 2012 Ronnie, I will post finding, I had to take a few days off working on it, but I think you are right with the csp but still can't get balancer off. All bolts off just can't budge balancer. PB blaster uesed several times now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mc_Reatta Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) Tap the metal center of the balancer several times straight on with a metal hammer some decent hits to set up some vibrations that will break any corrosive bonds between the balancer and the crankshaft. No need to hit hard enough to dent anything, you just trying to set up vibrations in the metal. A few good licks and it should free right up. Edited August 18, 2012 by Mc_Reatta (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudd Posted September 8, 2012 Author Share Posted September 8, 2012 Sorry it has been so long, but due to things I can't control put this on hold til now. I finally changed the cps and it started but same thing happens, idles, stalls, restarts, runs rough, if giving gag will stay running but now seems like missing while giving gag but not driving. I thank all who have helped, mind is not where it should be, will recap , car was running fine, but had a code for cam sensor, drove it that way for a few weeks, that is when it started to stall whille driving, always restarted, changed the cam sensor, same thing, cleaned maf, changed crank sensor today, same thing is happening. I am getting smoke from the back side of moter, smells like oil burning but can't see anything leaking and also blue like smoke from tail pipe when cold. car idles fine till warm then starts to stall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Corvanti Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 with the smoke out the tail pipe and the oil smell, i think i'd do a compression check of all the cylinders - both cold & warm engine conditions. possible blown head gasket. and if oil is going thru the exhaust, it may clog up the cat and mess up the O2's. had a similar problem on a '88 beretta - the 2.8L V6 engine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
padgett Posted September 8, 2012 Share Posted September 8, 2012 My experience is that Chevvys (SBC or 2.8-3.1) tend to burn oil & is usually valve guides. Buicks don't at least not in first 150k or so. Smoke on startup is symptomatic of valve guides, smoke running is rings.Now is the smoke blue (oil) or black (gas) ? Have seen a bad coolant sensor make the car think it is very cold which results in an over rich mixture & stalling. MPG is also very bad then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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