Lead fuel additive

[Bob56]

How many use a lead fuel additive? Is it necessary? Recently bought a 56 Chevy (stock 265) and it's time for a fill up. Also looking for a 30's vintage car

[Guest]

It's illegal to use in my state, except in aircraft. I wonder why the aircraft industry is exempt?

D.

[avgwarhawk]

There is lead substitute.

[scot]

I use about 1 gallon of diesel to a tank of gas in my 40 olds 8 cylinder. Slows down the evaporation of the gas and I would guess adds lubrication which is what lead was for.

[ply33]

How many use a lead fuel additive? Is it necessary? Recently bought a 56 Chevy (stock 265) and it's time for a fill up. Also looking for a 30's vintage car

Don't know about '50s engines as they were designed after leaded gasoline became common. But for the '30s cars you are also looking for you probably don't need it: Regular gas back then was either no lead or low lead. And if that '30s car you are looking for is a Chrysler product, then very likely it came with hardened exhaust valve seat inserts from the factory anyway.

Even for the '50s cars, it seems that the problems with unleaded gas are when the engine is run at high temperatures under heavy load. If you're going to be towing a trailer with that 265 for long distances in the summer heat you might have an issue. If you are driving it like most of us drive our collector cars it probably won't be a problem.

I'm more concerned with the additives already in modern gas: Many of them are not kind to older rubber components. So unless you've done things like rebuild the fuel pump with modern materials, etc. you could develop and issue there.

I use about 1 gallon of diesel to a tank of gas in my 40 olds 8 cylinder. Slows down the evaporation of the gas and I would guess adds lubrication which is what lead was for.

Actually lead was put into gas to raise the octane rating. Any help with preventing valve seat recession was purely an unexpected side effect.

Since all modern (last 20 years or so) cars use ported fuel injection the refiners seem to not care as much about volatility as much as in the days of carburetor equipped engines. Seems like heat related issues are more of a problem and perhaps the addition of diesel, in small quantities, might help. But that is a separate issue from whether the engine requires lead.

[Guest Water Jacket]

The above gents are right about the dearth of lead being a non-issue in most collector cars driven lightly,

especially if you have tall gearing or an overdrive,

and aren't pulling a lotta weight, a car full of porkers, in the mountains on a hot day.

But Red Line Lead Substitute is a vetted product, available at many auto parts emporiums, and will provide inexpensive piece of mind, protection.

[Guest Bill Miller]

Actual tetraethyl lead additive used to be available from Jack Podoll who sold it in quart containers or by the case. I bought a couple of cases from him several years back and he may still have the stuff. Also I used to add diesel fuel to my gasoline in my older vehicles to lower the fuel volativity and make them resistent to vapor lock. Then I found out that really old cars don't like diesel fuel because of the sulfur content which attacks and corrodes any yellow metal like copper and brass, so I quit using it on several cars and instead started adding 2-cycle engine oil you can buy at Walmart. Works just great and adds some lubrication where it probably helps. And if your car smokes a little you can just tell people it's the oil you add to your tank.

Bill

[Guest Water Jacket]

The above's good info, but tetraethyl lead's foul, foul stuff, causes brain damage, cokes up your exhaust system and if you've ever seen the oil pan of an old car from 50 or more years ago, the inch-deep clay-like deposit of lead,

you or your car won't miss it in the least.

Lead cushioned the momentary, nano-second "weld" of exhaust valve against seat. Red Line Lead Substitute uses sodium as the dissimilar metal. Potassium was tried in Europe but doesn't work as well.

I leave gasoline additives beyond Red Line to others,

but i always toss in 4 oz. Marvel Mystery Oil per 10 gallons gas in my Packard, as well as use an Ampco top cylinder oiler, to further protect the engine's heat/wear zone. These things really work. The British equivalent of the SAE tore down a fleet of London taxis and lorries in the '50s so equipped, and found only half the engine wear in vehicles so equipped.

[Guest]

The above's good info, but tetraethyl lead's foul, foul stuff, causes brain damage, cokes up your exhaust system and if you've ever seen the oil pan of an old car from 50 or more years ago, the inch-deep clay-like deposit of lead,

you or your car won't miss it in the least.

Lead cushioned the momentary, nano-second "weld" of exhaust valve against seat. Red Line Lead Substitute uses sodium as the dissimilar metal. Potassium was tried in Europe but doesn't work as well.

I leave gasoline additives beyond Red Line to others,

but i always toss in 4 oz. Marvel Mystery Oil per 10 gallons gas in my Packard, as well as use an Ampco top cylinder oiler, to further protect the engine's heat/wear zone. These things really work. The British equivalent of the SAE tore down a fleet of London taxis and lorries in the '50s so equipped, and found only half the engine wear in vehicles so equipped.

Try one quart of Dexron 3 to twenty gallons of fuel. It's cheaper and does the same thing. Carboned combustion chambers that contribute to detonation are a thing of the past.

D.

[Rusty_OToole]

If you are concerned about your valves you can add some upper cylinder lubricant to the gas. Redex, Bardahl, Marvel Mystery Oil are traditional but there are more modern brands from Lucas, Duralube and others.

Your compression ratio is low enough that you do not need any lead for knock suppression. Today's regular is about the same octane as when your car was built.

[D Yaros]

The, as far as I know, ONLY company that made actual TEL which was sold in quarts ceased operations a few years ago. The product was called Octane Supreme. While there was an abortive restart, and talk of a 2nd restart of the company, nothing has come of it and TEL is not available for purchase to my knowledge.

[Guest buick1956]

Octane Supreme's name has changed, Command 130 has a new name too. It is available for off road use. I own a '61 fuelie that needs lead or anti-perculation fuel. The spider gets warm and perculates the fuel casuing very poor idle conditions. Off Idle is OK. Also, all conversation is on valves, do not forget that the carb used lead for lubrication. Where this eco based crap turns carb floats, fuel pumps and likes to junk.

I found a gas station that sells non ethinol gas, add lead substitute and a little marvel, idle problem improved greatly. For those who remember Rochester Injection it was touchy even with old gas. Valves are not a problem ETHINOL and today crap eco gas is not good for MPG and older cars.

[Dave@Moon]

It may be of academic interest at best to a lot of people, but it should be said that since 1996 it's been a $10,000 fine to use leaded fuel in a licensed, on-road vehicle. Be careful who knows you're using this stuff!

Also the MSDS for TEL containing additives is a pretty scary thing to read, including Octane Supreme's ( http://www.hi-flow.com/HP-015OtherProds/OS%20-%20MSDS.pdf ). Handle this stuff carefully, it is decidedly not STP!:eek:

In addition that additive generally sells for $21.00/bottle (plus shipping if not available locally) ( Octane Supreme 130 Fuel Additive Octane Boost Booster | eBay ), and it takes about 2 bottles to raise a 20 gal. tank from 93 to 101 octane. Racing fuels, the unleaded version of which are still perfectly legal, are likely a more economic alternative for 12:1 engines that need octane that high ( Racing Fuel Prices ).

[D Yaros]

2 Bottles to a tank? The folks I heard of using it use ounces to the tank, not bottles?

[Guest Skyking]

It's illegal to use in my state, except in aircraft. I wonder why the aircraft industry is exempt?

D.

Did you ever look up to the sky on a clear day? I think lead would be an improvement for what they are spraying up there now.

[MarrsCars]

FYI most of the older cars from Mercedes-Benz, at the very least during the 60's if not further back, already hardened their valve seats making use of lead substitutes unnecessary. There are reports on the Benz forums from members who have run their vintage cars for 25+ years on unleaded with no additives and they have shown no unusual wear. I'd be curious to find out if any other manufacturers did this as well, it would save those owners lots of money each year in additives.

[R W Burgess]

It may be of academic interest at best to a lot of people, but it should be said that since 1996 it's been a $10,000 fine to use leaded fuel in a licensed, on-road vehicle. Be careful who knows you're using this stuff!

Thankfully, the State of Virginia has no such law! There are gas stations around the state that dispenses legal leaded gasoline. Unfortunate for me, I did not put any into two of my seldom used small engines. Both now have "mucked up" carburators.

Edited March 25, 2013 by R W Burgess
spelling error (see edit history)

[Guest buick1956]

Dave@Moon, Note I did not mention putting in my tank!!! Again it is not bottles, but ozs. I Do not have 11:1 compression becasue of the new gas, I run 10:1. All of the comments on lead for valves is true, it is the system lubrication that is important. High octane fuel burns slower, so adding Marvel oil, Diesel fuel all slow down the burn rate, thus increasing the octane from the chamber explosion point of view.

Problem with Rochester Fuel injection is the spider that at idle absorbs heat, creating what we used to call vapor lock. The pressure at idle is around .5 to 1 psi. Also, the 6 oz of fuel in the bowl and the fuel in the line to the injection from the pump are also absorbing the heat, so it takes a lot of fuel to get the perculation problem to go away.

The only reason I mention the injection (Buick did not have mechanical fuel injection in the 50's-60's) is that lead substitute has other advantages of lubrication in the fuel system and the old injection system is a good place to evaluate different approaches.

Bruce

[Dave@Moon]

Thankfully, the State of Virginia has no such law! There are gas stations around the state that dispenses legal leaded gasoline.

It's a Federal law, Wayne, the Clean Air Act of 1990. It's actually part of the law, not a regulation stemming from it. If your local gas station selling leaded gas doesn't have a sign on it somewhere reading (to the effect) "For Off Road Use Only", they're facing a really bad time with the Feds someday. That's why it's written on the Octane Supreme bottles.

[Guest]

It's a Federal law, Wayne, the Clean Air Act of 1990. It's actually part of the law, not a regulation stemming from it. If your local gas station selling leaded gas doesn't have a sign on it somewhere reading (to the effect) "For Off Road Use Only", they're facing a really bad time with the Feds someday. That's why it's written on the Octane Supreme bottles.

Any thoughts on why the aircraft industry is exempt from this law?

[R W Burgess]

Dave, the State of Virginia is beginning to ignore some of the federal laws (see Affordable Healthcare). The pumps do not have off road written on them anywhere.

Ok Dave. I'm messing with you. I do not know how the pump in question is listed. I will get someone nearby to check it out this week.

It's a Federal law, Wayne, the Clean Air Act of 1990. It's actually part of the law, not a regulation stemming from it. If your local gas station selling leaded gas doesn't have a sign on it somewhere reading (to the effect) "For Off Road Use Only", they're facing a really bad time with the Feds someday. That's why it's written on the Octane Supreme bottles.

Edited March 25, 2013 by R W Burgess (see edit history)

[Dave@Moon]

Again it is not bottles, but ozs.

--Octane Supreme 130 - Octane Supreme is a Tetraethyl Lead TEL gasoline treatment / octane booster

This is Kemco's own application chart for Octane Supreme 130. Note the fine print line 3rd from the bottom. It reads: "Make 93 octane gas into 101 octane by adding 3 ounces of OS-130* per gallon fuel.". (*abbreviation for Octane Supreme 130). 20 gallon tank treatment = 60 ounces, approximately 2 32 ounce/$21.00 bottles.

If you're using substantially less, you're hardly doing anything at all for your fuel, and you've probably never needed the stuff in the first place.

[John Byrd]

There are 4 stations here with-in 5 miles of my house that sell regular leaded fuel. There is no "off-road only" signs on any of them, in fact one of the stations has a large banner and has added a second pump. The banner speaks of the advantages of using this gas. I imagine that boats have always been exempt also, along with planes and other things, but apparently it is not a " set in concrete" law to not sell or use it, at least here.

[Dave@Moon]

Any thoughts on why the aircraft industry is exempt from this law?

Volume, volume, volume! They were able to make a persuasive argment in 1990 that far less fuel is burned in airplanes than in cars. It's a VERY similar argument WE should be making regarding special status fuels for antique cars to avoid eventual problems with e15/e20/etc.

[Dave@Moon]

There are 4 stations here with-in 5 miles of my house that sell regular leaded fuel. There is no "off-road only" signs on any of them, in fact one of the stations has a large banner and has added a second pump. The banner speaks of the advantages of using this gas. I imagine that boats have always been exempt also, along with planes and other things, but apparently it is not a " set in concrete" law to not sell or use it, at least here.

It is VERY set in 17 year old concrete! Marinas fall into the same class as the aircraft fuels just discussed.

[Dave@Moon]

Some Very Important News re. Users of TEL Products/Fuel:

I just found this article in the well-respected newspaper The Independent (UK) dated 1/14/2013. I never heard of any of this, and given that I keep well up on antique car and environmental news that should give a very good perspective how far out of the mainstream use of leaded fuel has become.

Made in Britain: The toxic tetraethyl lead used in fuel sold to world's poorest - Home News - UK - The Independent

Environmental groups today called on the Government to ban Innospec Ltd, which claims to be the world's only producer of tetraethyl lead (TEL), from further exports of the substance. TEL is banned from use on Britain's roads but remains legal in six impoverished nations. The company, which is American owned but maintains much of its manufacturing in the UK, had intended to stop production and sales of TEL at the end of 2012 but has now set a new deadline of the end of this year to halt all dealings in the chemical, from which it has generated large profits.

Start your hoarding now guys!

Edited March 25, 2013 by Dave@Moon
Can't type "independent"! (see edit history)

[D Yaros]

But for the sequester, we might have soon had FBI guys working the classic car shows demanding fuel samples for testing! Then again, we may have such precisely because of the sequester, in order to raise revenue?

[MarrsCars]

Any thoughts on why the aircraft industry is exempt from this law?

"Lead - in the form of Tetra Ethyl Lead (TEL) - was initially developed for use in aircraft engines as a means of gaining large increases in power output without destroying the engines through detonation or pre-ignition (pinking). When the leaded fuel was made available for road use, it was soon found that vehicles using Ethyl petrol did not need their valve clearances adjusting as much as those running on normal petrol did."

Info (and LOTS more) found here: A guide to unleaded additives - Classic Car How To Guides and Articles | Classic Motoring Magazine

[ply33]

. . . I never heard of any of this, and given that I keep well up on antique car and environmental news . . .

What part of that had you not heard of? The correlation between environmental lead levels due to TEL treated gas and crime rates about 30 years later? There is enough medical and scientific data behind the effects of lead on the nervous system, especially that of exposure in early childhood, that it is very, very likely to be a cause->effect relationship? That has been on my radar for for a number of years now.

If one is really compelled to get TEL additive for their collector cars, despite the fact that most cars don't need it, I hope they are aware that it is a very potent poison. And they should not allow anyone, especially small children, anywhere near where fumes might be present.

My only surprise on reading the article is that TEL was still being manufactured and that the plant was in the UK.

[ply33]

"Lead - in the form of Tetra Ethyl Lead (TEL) - was initially developed for use in aircraft engines"

I guess it would have been used in aircraft engines from day one as they are always looking for better power to weight ratios, but I had thought that Kettering and company were working in the automotive industry and looking at anti-knock additive for cars.

[Dave@Moon]

What part of that had you not heard of?

That the last place on earth that still makes TEL is being voluntarily shut down this year.

The unforgivable continuing use of lead fuels in a few impoverished countries was and has been the last controversy re. TEL that I was aware of. That the "off road" uses of this stuff is going by the wayside as well can only be a good thing.

[jdome]

Aviation fuel is actually "Low Lead Aviation Fuel" that only contains 1/10th gram of lead per gallon. The old leaded auto & avaition fuels used to contain 4 grams so it now has less than 3% of the lead it used to have. That appears to be the amount the FAA believes will protect the valves. The fuel has other additives (not ethanol) for octane boosters. If there is fuel in certain states being sold at the pumps as "leaded" I am sure it contains no more than 1/10th gram and it is not the primary octane booster. All crude oil naturally contains trace amounts of lead and other metalics in various amounts, depending on the mineral deposits of the ground it is pumped from. It is not practical to remove all of the lead during the refinning process so something like 1/100 or 1/1000 of a gram is permitted in unleaded fuel.

Real "marine gas" does not contain lead, but it also does not contain ethanol. Not all marinas in my state sell true no-E marine gas. "Marine gas" has the same Federal Fuel tax (road tx) built into the pump price as road gas sold anywhere in the US. My state of Ohio also taxes gas the same whether it is sold on the street or on a dock. It is NOT illegal to buy or sell "marine gas" for street use in Ohio but I don't know if that is true in other state.

IMO, avaition and boat owners are able to have their special fuels because they have the FAA and Coast Guard in their camp: other government agencies that are able to pull rank over the EPA.

[jdome]

But for the sequester, we might have soon had FBI guys working the classic car shows demanding fuel samples for testing! Then again, we may have such precisely because of the sequester, in order to raise revenue?

They will use the same new IRS agents hired to make sure we have health care to search through our receipts looking for lead additive purchases. DON'T turn in lead additive as an expense.

[jdome]

This is a real rant and Rave but it is something that I feel very strongly about. To suggest actually using TEL in ANY car is morally unconscionable and you should be ashamed of even thinking of doing it. Let us hope that our kids growing up without TEL are smarter than the old guys (such as myself) who's brains are so damaged by TEL that they think it is still a good idea to use it.

BTW, it was the incompatibility of catalytic converters with leaded fuel that started the ball rolling for getting lead out of gas. Kind of a back door approach but the vested interests in TEL was very strong.

Airplanes cannot pull over to the shoulder if engine problems develop.

To begin with, I have no shame, but why pick on me. I am not suggesting to anyone to use TEL. I have no use for the stuff myself. Did You read any of the several previous posts of others I was responding to before you targeted me with went your rant? I was responding to someone who incorectly assumed that high octane aviation fuel still contained high levels of lead (TEL). It no longer does. Another poster said that leaded fuel is banned for road use but another post said that it is still available in his state. I don't believe that it is but if it is, it would have to be low content, similar to modern, low-lead aviation fuel which only has 3% of what it used to have; just enough to maintain valve seats. TEL is no longer used to boost octane in AV-gas.

I didn't say but I believe the poster is not seeing leaded fuel advertised in his state. I think it is unleaded fuel that contains no ethanol similar to what is sold in Ohio at marinas along Lake Erie and other marinas in the state. This marine gas is legal for street use in Ohio. Let me be clear. The "Marine" gas sold in Ohio contains ZERO, NOT ANY, NONE, NO ADDED LEAD OR TEL. It contains ZERO, NOT ANY, NONE, NO ADDED ETHANOL. I will shamelessly recommend UNLEADED-UNETHANOLED fuel in our old cars until someone can show me why I should not.

[Guest buick1956]

1910_Anon needs to visit the woods and hug a few trees to relax!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Dave@Moon]

Regardless, the reality of today's situation is that finally worldwide in no more than 9 months nobody will be able to purchase and use any TEL anywhere for any reason, and it's happening because of simple human decency.

For once no direct government action was needed to force commerce to end a destructive practice.

[R W Burgess]

Jdome Not picking on you, I used your quote for the 4 g/gal number. That is a HUGE amount of lead to be spewing out. I am still awaiting a response from Burgess on this thread to see if he is confusing Ethanol with Ethyl Lead. .

Anon, my wife made me delete my last post, evidently, she did not agree with me.

At any rate, I will check the pump in question here in Virginia the first change that I get.

Oh, and let's keep the politics out of this discussion, please.

Wayne

[ply33]

Anon, my wife made me delete my last post, evidently, she did not agree with me. . .

The moderator has a moderator?

[Guest heftylefty]

Thankfully, the State of Virginia has no such law! There are gas stations around the state that dispenses legal leaded gasoline. Unfortunate for me, I did not put any into two of my seldom used small engines. Both now have "mucked up" carburators.

Although I feel any old engine should be given hardened valve seats and improved valves as a matter of common sense when rebuilding, if an engine is run for a while on leaded fuels the valves and seats are more or less permanently impregnated and there is no need for valve additives. However....

If you want lead, adding one part of 100LL aviation gas to 10 parts unleaded pump gas gives you a fuel that still has more lead than auto gas ever had and will raise its octane rating as well. I use 100LL mixed with a small amount of tricresyl phosphate antifouling additive in my small engines for yard work and never have any carb or fuel system issues.

I don't know if it's legal or not but the Fuel Police haven't been over to bother me and probably never will. A few airports are prickish about selling avgas but usually they don't care as long as you don't put it in a roadgoing vehicle on their property or tell them you do so for road tax reasons.

The small engine makers refuse to use alcohol proof fuel system components because it would add a few dollars to the build cost. I believe anyone restoring any old car, tractor or anything else that burns gasoline should use only alcoholproof lines, gaskets and floats as a matter of common sense, too, because we are going to be stuck with alcohol fuel for the rest of our lives. That's just a fact.

Leaded avgas has been on the chopping block since the seventies but I suspect that it will be available for the rest of my lifetime or at least until I'm too old to care.

[bhambulldog]

Although I feel any old engine should be given hardened valve seats and improved valves as a matter of common sense when rebuilding, if an engine is run for a while on leaded fuels the valves and seats are more or less permanently impregnated and there is no need for valve additives. However....

If you want lead, adding one part of 100LL aviation gas to 10 parts unleaded pump gas gives you a fuel that still has more lead than auto gas ever had and will raise its octane rating as well. I use 100LL mixed with a small amount of tricresyl phosphate antifouling additive in my small engines for yard work and never have any carb or fuel system issues.

I don't know if it's legal or not but the Fuel Police haven't been over to bother me and probably never will. A few airports are prickish about selling avgas but usually they don't care as long as you don't put it in a roadgoing vehicle on their property or tell them you do so for road tax reasons.

The small engine makers refuse to use alcohol proof fuel system components because it would add a few dollars to the build cost. I believe anyone restoring any old car, tractor or anything else that burns gasoline should use only alcoholproof lines, gaskets and floats as a matter of common sense, too, because we are going to be stuck with alcohol fuel for the rest of our lives. That's just a fact.

Leaded avgas has been on the chopping block since the seventies but I suspect that it will be available for the rest of my lifetime or at least until I'm too old to care.

Buick V8 engines '53 to '66 (264, 322, 364, 401, 425 nailheads) are NOT candidates for valve seat hardening. The water jacket for those engines are too close to the valve seats for further grinding.

I agree with earlier posts recommending Marvel Mystery Oil fuel additive for valve lubrication.

A high octane fuel of 91 (or higher) along with well set timing will cure detonation issues.

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