Bud Tierney

LeRoi 2C Engine (4cyl 31/8x41/2) in Lafayette/Nash/Ajax??

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Found the following listing in a 1950 Fitzgerald gasket catalog:

"LA FAYETTE (SEE NASH) 4...........REFER LEROI 2C (FITZ NO. 96)".

The "4" in this catalog would be 4cyl (correct for the 2C); the "refer" is used in this catalog when the vehicle has an "industrial" engine (Buda, Cont, Herc etc). The "96" is the correct head gskt for the 2C per it's listing in the LeRoi section of that catalog. This engine is NOT listed in the Nash engine section in that catalog.

Std Cat shows Nash's LaFayette 1921-24 was only an 8, and would've been too large/heavy for the 2C; my catalogs show the resurrected LaFayette 1934 etc to've been all 6s. The several other LaFayetts mentioned were either too early or never in production. None of my catalogs show a 4cyl 31/8 under Nash.

The LeRoi 2C was a highly popular Ag/Ind'l engine used in cars, trucks, tractors and all kinds of Ag/Ind'l installations; it doesn't show in a 1917 ring catalog but I have listings as early as 1915 models (Denby 3/4 Ton 1915-16).

It was Wendels "...ever popular LeRoi..." mentioned in his Ency of US farm tractors.

Does anyone here have a Nash history that mentions this or any LeRoi engine, or know if this engine was considered/used by Nash in anything???

Any comments appreciated; many thxx!!! Bud

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Old thread, but was the LeRoi 2C ever used in early Service Trucks(Wabash)? Thanks

post-31787-143143052717_thumb.jpg

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Ahhh, the site's notification of replies still working...

Eyeballing a couple of my old catalogs just lists various Budas for Service, but my old catalogs are weak in the 'teens-early 20s, and old parts catalogs are notoriously incomplete....

Mroz mentions an early Service (1911-12) "...model A delivery vehicle..." (implying something like 1/2 to 3/4 ton) with an unidentified small 4 cyl, then goes to 1917 when the company was building 1 to 5 tonners, probably too heavy for a 2C...but it doesn't say whether the

"delivery" was produced to 1916, possibly withing the 2C period, IF the 2C was available that early...

I've never verified the 1915 or so Denby 3/4 ton with the 2C, but it's in a 1930 McCord gasket catalog, which should be fairly reliable, which makes the early Service "delivery" a possibility...

A 1917 ring catalog lists various Service models, the smallest engine being 31/2 bore, while the 2C is 31/8...

I'll eyeball a few other catalogs; while the 2C was primarily an Ag etc engine, it did get into a very few small trucks and one car, if I recall correctly...

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Didn't have time to do any more digging but did find, misfiled in the LeRoi section of an old catalog, a page of 2C uses I'd apparently made up earlier...

There were a number of cars, incl the Partin-Palmer #20 1914-17. Std Cat lists it 1915-17 as a 20HP, while Mroz listed the early Service 4 as a 22HP...close, but there were a number of small 4s built for "cyclecars" and "light cars" that could've been used...

Other car, truck, tractor, Clark Eqpmt listings ran from 1915 to at least mid-20s, but most listings often omit any years (catalogs checked for the original list up thru 1933---some later catalogs apparently not checked, so may've been sold much later)...

So it appears possible that the 2C might've been used in the "delivery" model; while one catalog listing for the Stewart 6-11/611 model 1919-21 with the 2C listed it as 3/4-11/2ton, I believe that a misprint as all other truck listings, including other Stewart listings, that specified tonnage, were all 1/2 to 3/4 ton...

Was there some particular point that raised the possibility of your Service having a 2C???

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Posted (edited)

Nash did build and sell a four in the early 1920s but it was 3 3/8 x 5 and had overhead valves. The Ajax was a 3" x 4" side valve six. I think they may have built a line of light trucks just after WW1 to follow on from the Quad but I don't know what they were powered by. The few shown here - http://southernclassic.tripod.com/id21.html - look to big for the 138 cid of the 2C Le Roi.

Edited by nzcarnerd (see edit history)

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Posted (edited)

Bud Tierney said:
Was there some particular point that raised the possibility of your Service having a 2C???

No, I was Grasping for Straws. I have since discovered that my Service Motor Truck #3155 is a 1917 model 130 and no doubt had a Buda engine, 4cyl 4-1/8" x 5-1/2", not sure which Buda model I should be looking for. Thanks    28-Sept-2016 update: looking for Buda model OU

 

Branham Serial pp2.jpg

Edited by dep5 (see edit history)

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Nice to stumble on to you guys.  Mostly a Hudson Motors historian but have some questions for you catalog guys.  I used peak at them myself a couple of decades ago.  In 1909 the 1st Hudson Model 20's had 3 3/4 x 4 1/2 B&S.  It was made by Indy's Atlas but their production demands added Buda.  I've lots of productions meeting minutes indicating problems with getting Buda up to speed.  The 4 1/2" stroke was used until the Continental started the '13  larger Model 37 fours.  

 

I've seen catalogs that called the '09-10 Model 20s as a Buda QU.  Then later with different sizes as QU.  

 

Anyone familiar with these?

 

Hudson made parts for WWI Nash Quad but haven't seen much on engine specs.  Certainly not Hudson.

 

I don't visit often so send me an email and post here for a thread.

 

DJ Kava

1755 Bandera 

Beaumont, Tx 77706

djksetx@yahoo.com

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Can't add anything definitive...interesting question...

I have very little that goes back that far...primarily a 1917 Burd Hi-Comp Ring Co catalog covering mainly 1914-17 but some older...it's set up by ring size/number, each size followed by cars/trucks/tractors/engines taking that size...

Hudson #20 1908-10 is listed with a 4cyl 33/4 bore with pistons taking 4 3/16" rings

1911=12 #33 shows 4cyl 4" bore taking 4 1/4" rings...not that many makes etc listed used 4 ring pistons...

1913 #37 4cyl and #54 6cyl show 41/8 bore first using 4 1/4" rings, then dropping to 3 rings, if I'm interpreting the listing correctly...

Conde's Hudson book refers to Buda without any specific dates, only saying engines were all Cont'l by late 1911...

Those bore/ring combinations were all popular combinations, listings including various Budas and other engines...

Interestingly, the 33/4-3/16 list includes Budas Q and QM 1913 as 4 rings (other Budas with three, the "standard")...

The 4"-1/4 list has no matching Buda, but does show Cont'ls A and M as 4 rings, but no years and no stroke in my Cont'l list, nor does anything I have show any purported introduction dates...

One other catalog (1933 Perf Circle rings) lists the QU as 1912-23. 33/4 with 4 3/16 rings, while two other catalogs list it as 1913--(no ring info) ...

The Q series seems to've run Q, QM, QM3, QU, a possible QU2, and a posible QQU, altho that could've been a misprint for "Q-QU" or "Q,QU", used to show both engines available or that the QU replaced the Q...

I only have one stroke, for the QU, as 51/2, pencilled into my list, source not noted...

It'd be interesting to see a Buda Q, QU or QM next to a Hudson...

Don't follow Hudson, but in my earlier years owned 36 4dr, 34 Terrapieces/Terriblepain 4dr with the axleflex and a 35 coupe, all sweet running cars...in later years my brother (gone on to his reward, if any) ran thru a 46 6, a 50 Commodore? 8 and two or three 53-54? 7Xs...

Had to watch the 36 in the winter; slush'd freeze the tie rod where it went thru the front axle stabilizers; the 7Xs seemed to need heavier u-joints, generally needed 2-3 sets before the cars smashed up in alcoholic exuberance...

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It has been a year since visiting this site to peddle a '65-66 AMC AM/FM radio leftover from my car rotation caused by lost hurricane storage. Back to Buda QU.  As far as I know it is ringer for the Atlas but will ding a few '09 guys to see if there were casting differences.  Atlas did the first ones and when sales/production out paced their shop added Buda.  It too was primitive in production methods and production meetings indicated they had constant visits with engineering part chaser to insure delivery.  They shifted to the bigger Continental for the new '12 models with a lingering few Model 20s.  Production was about 5,000 per year and to save shipping costs the managers in separate land deal sold the space next door to Continental. The thing I wanted to add was a president Chapin's comment about a complaint to the NYT about one of the their ads.  He mentioned that they designed them and suppliers were free to modify for commercial use.   Easy for manufacturers to change bore, harder on the stroke.  SIA decades ago had Continental history with all sorts of specs indicating something like the '14 6-40 Light Six was repeated for years.  I suspect the Buda QU is also one of these.

 

The 7Xs Hudson Stepdown showed the weakness in the cars.  On the race track first was braking wheels followed by an "severe usage" parts number sees. Generally the u-joints held up but what your brother may have had problems with is the bonded rubber mounted center support bearing bracket. Parts books actually have two durometer hardness numbers.  In the '60s I broke them a number of times in Texas but corrosion and could mess them up.  There is at least one '70s published account how a Chicago car at 60mph froze up and sliced a hole in the floor next to his standing kid!

 

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