bepnewt

I want an "original" carb -- 1964 Riviera

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Hello, all. I bought my '64 Riv with an aftermarket carb and I've decided to replace it with something a little more original. Attached are 2 photos of my current Carter AFB.

The information I'm looking for is what numbered carbs will be close to original for my '64 425? I've been able to find what numbered carbs belong in the 2x4 setup, but I haven't seen what is a correct number for the 1x4.

I said "close to original" in the above paragraph because of my reasons for doing the change. I'd like to do the the change for 2 specific reasons:

1) I want to be able to come here if I have issues and you guys be familiar with my carb

2) I want to attempt a rebuild to learn about it

So, if I can get my hands on a correct carb from a '63, '65, etc. with linkage and other parts that will work for my A/C '64, that's good enough for me. Also, if there's one that has more CFM than the others, that's always a bonus. I've been eyeing that 2x4 setup on eBay and forcing myself not to bid. Start small, Newt, start small. You're a software engineer, not an auto engineer.

The Buick guy in Tulsa has a few carbs sitting on his shelf so I'd like to go to him with numbers and see if he has one for me. He also has a 2x4 manifold lying on the floor that I'd like to get from him someday...

-BEPNewt

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Brian,

Here's the scoop from my '64 chassis manual - Section 3-2 Specifications.

401 w/ auto transmission AFB 3633S

425 w/ auto transmission AFB 3665S

There are some slight differences in the sizes of the:

low speed jet #65 v. #68

secondary metering jet 120-158 v. 120-159

& metering rod 16-219 v. 16-167

I'm running a #3633S on my '64 and it runs fine.

The major thing you want to be looking at is the linkage - it needs to have the correct linkage to activate the kickdown for your ST400 transmission.

Jon at The Carburetor Shop in Eldon, MO shows one of each on his Carburetors for Sale page

http://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Carbsale.htm

Ed

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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Thanks, Ed. When you said "low speed jet #65 v. #68", did you mean

"low speed jet #65 v. #63"

or

"low speed jet #63 v. #65"

or did you mean what you typed? If you did mean "#68", which is the #68? Is it safe to assume the carb for the 401 has less cfm?

And, do the numbers on the metering jets and rods indicate a size or are they part numbers? Or something else?

If I can't get a used carb from the local Buick guy, I'll broaden my search. I'd like to build a good rapport with the guy semi-close to me if I can. If that doesn't pan out, I'll start with local junk yards and go from there. I don't want to get one that's ready to install because I want to do a rebuild and get some knowledge out of the deal.

I'll call Jon at the link you provided if local doesn't work for me to see if he has a non-rebuilt one. Thanks for all the info.

I'll check out the chassis manual soon to see what I can learn from it.

I'd also like to thank Jim Cannon for already assisting me with my carb issue(s) and giving me some things to think about.

-BEPNewt

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Everything I copied from the chassis manual is in the format of 401 v 425.

Take a look at Jon's entire website; he's very knowledgeable about old carbs up through 1975. I think he's out two years on rebuilds / restorations so what he's listed for sale probably falls into the to-be-rebuilt category. Tell him you're an ROA member. I had invited him to the Branson event last summer, but his dad is in bad health and he didn't want to leave his dad for an extended time.

I know for a fact that a '63 carb wouldn't have the correct linkage, nor would a '66. The '63 uses a rod attached directly to the Dynaflow trans, and the '66 has a different switch set up from the '64 (I have a complete example of each of the '63, '64 and '66 units) What I don't know is if the '65 carb has the same kickdown linkage as the '64 or the '66. The '65 has the variable pitch torque converter so it might use the same linkage as a '66. Someone else will have to answer that one for you.

Ed

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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You have no choke actuator in the pictures you posted. That would explain your hard start.

You could temporarily put a manual choke cable on it.

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Brian,

Try checking with Tom T. If he doesn't have what you are looking for he'll get it or provide excellent guidance for you on your search.

Careful buying used carbs unless they are of known condition. Just one example is if the housing is worn where the throttle shafts rotate, they will need bushed for best performance.

Tom Telesco

Classic and Muscle Automotive

465 Glenbrook Rd

Stamford, CT 06906-1820

Day Phone 203-324-6045 ET

NailHead Mini-Starters '53-'66

Adjustable Roller Tip Rocker Arms - All NailHeads

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You have no choke actuator in the pictures you posted. That would explain your hard start.

You could temporarily put a manual choke cable on it.

I got the #s off of the carb ( 9605S ) and found a pic of what it's _supposed_ to look like. You were right in what you guessed might be true when I talked to you, Jim. It's an electric choke. Well, it is when the actuator exists.

My first step is calling the places you guys have mentioned ( Jon, Tom, etc. ) to see if they know where I can get an actuator for this puppy. If I can't get one, I'll explore the manual choke cable route. I just need it to choke until I get the replacement carb in house and rebuilt.

Thanks again, all.

-BEPNewt

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Brian,

Those Carter Competition Series 9000 carburetors could be purchsed new with an electirc choke or with the manual choke like yours - the manual choke carbs were quite a bit less expensive. They were built identical to original Carter AFB's, as are the Edelbrock AFB's, except for the diameter of the neck - and all parts should interchange. Tom T suggests that to keep the original air cleaner on a new Edlebrock, just swap an original top plate for the Edlebrock plate.

If your local carb guy has an older AFB for parts, it's probable that you could install an automatic choke assembly from an original carb on your 9000 series carb. It could also be probable that the Edlebrock kit for their AFB would work on your Carter.

Edelbrock 1478 - Edelbrock Electric Choke Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com

I ran a 750 cfm 9000 series for a while on my '63 and ran a choke cable to a place under the dash. It worked fine, just like the old truck on the farm did with its manual choke. (I also had to run an aftermarket air cleaner.)

I sold that carb and another matching unit along with a 2x4 manifold to another Riviera guy some time ago. He's still running both carbs with progressive linkage on that manifold and using the manual choke on the rear of the two carbs (the front choke he's wired open on his '64. 1500 cfm's at WOT - Wheeeeee!

Good luck and keep us informed as to what you do.

Ed

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I just picked up a 64 to part out. It was last on the road in 73. My guess is that it still has the original Carb and linkages. The carb was rebuilt several years ago (1985) but will most likely need to be gone thru again. The car does run.

Vincent

VDonato@nycap.rr.com

518 765 3893 Home

518 227 2083 Cell

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I just picked up a 64 to part out. It was last on the road in 73. My guess is that it still has the original Carb and linkages. The carb was rebuilt several years ago (1985) but will most likely need to be gone thru again. The car does run.

Vincent

VDonato@nycap.rr.com

518 765 3893 Home

518 227 2083 Cell

Please make a thread about what you're willing to part with. I might need something but I don't want to clutter Bepnewt's thread.

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I just picked up a 64 to part out. It was last on the road in 73. My guess is that it still has the original Carb and linkages. The carb was rebuilt several years ago (1985) but will most likely need to be gone thru again. The car does run.

Thank you for the offer, Vincent. Dick Sweeney has a carb for me that I will be purchasing.

-BEPNewt

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Fast forward 4.5 years...

 

We had multiple life changes since my last post which kept me away from doing anything with my '64 Riv.  Things are back on track, now.

 

The carb I mentioned at the start of this thread starting spewing gas when I'd try to start 'er up so I decided to finally do something about the one I bought for rebuilding.  I took it to my local shop and had them disassemble it and dunk it overnight and then rebuild it.  A week later, they called and said it wasn't a rebuild candidate.  When I went to pick it up, he showed me where there was scale on the inside of the carb and he was worried there was deterioration in places that we couldn't see and he wasn't comfortable restoring this carb.  He dunked it for a week, when he normally just dunks them over night.

 

So, now I am looking for a carb again.  I'm more interested in one that is ready to bolt on as opposed to one that is ready to be rebuilt.  If I can't find one that is ready to bolt on, then I'll go the route of a rebuild candidate.  I do want to stick with an original for my '64.

 

If you have one to sell, please let me know.

 

Thanks,

-BEP

 

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Contact Larry Daisey  at his "Rancho Riviera" and see what he has.  His ad is in the bottom left corner of the July/August Riview on page 26.

 

 

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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I'll see if the person I rebuilt a '64/425 carb. for his '64 Widcat is willing to sell it since he changed it out for another carb, just last year. I have already rebuilt/rebushed it & is ready to go. If he is willing to sell it ($$$$????) & I will go through it & install it on a car before shipping off to you. I can supply you will the CORRECT gasket &  stainless insulating plate.

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Thanks, Tom.  If he is willing to sell it, let me know his price, please.

 

I did send Larry Daisey an email asking if he had one and also asked him if he had a line on a dual-quad setup.  If he comes back with a dual-quad setup ( and all related pieces ) I will jump on that.  Else, I'm definitely interested in the one you rebuilt.

 

-BEP

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Brian,

 

    Just to let you know I have rebuilt/re-bushed MANY carbs. for people on this site as well as V8Buick.com & others from all over the WORLD. As far as I know NO ONE has had ANY problems with what I've done other than taking more time than was originally planned because of looking for replacement parts or some sort of oddball repair. BUT this carb. will need NOTHING!!!  If some would like to make comments feel free. I run each carb. on a '64/425 Riv. that I have to make ABSOLUTELY SURE it works properly before shipping. The guy wanted $450.00  for it but after he & I talked we agreed that a fair value would be $350.00. I'm NOT making any $$$$ on this ( it's not ALL about the $$$$ ) as I feel I'm doing my best to help someone out & helping to keep these WONDERFUL 1st. gens on the road & running properly. Finding a good one yr. only carb. that is a BOLT-ON is getting MUCH MORE difficult as time marches on. After it's installed & you feel comfortable if you want to send me something a little extra for my effort it would be appreciated, BUT NOT mandatory. As far as I'm concerned for what he paid me to do this carb. it's a deal!!!   As I said I will go through it COMPLETELY AGAIN just to make SURE ALL is OK. With the carb., gasket, stainless plate & shipping ($$$???) would be about $450.00 total. IT IS the CORRECT ONE YR. ONLY CARB. for a '64/425 Riv.

   Will you also need the gasket & plate or have you blocked the exhaust holes in the manifold ??? Then the plate is NOT needed.

 

 

Tom T.

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Tom,

 

Larry is looking to see if he has the pieces for a dual-quad setup for me.  It's going to take him a few days or more, though.  He has to go to his storage unit and see what he can find.

 

While I'm waiting, however, I'll take the one you have.  If I end up getting a 2x4 from him, then it will still be a while before it will be ready to install.  The carbs will need to be rebuilt, etc. and I want my 'Riv back on the road ASAP.  

 

Quote

"Will you also need the gasket & plate or have you blocked the exhaust holes in the manifold ??? Then the plate is NOT needed."

 

I'm basically an idiot, so I don't know the answer to this.  The first post in this thread has 2 pics of the current carb that I'm replacing.  Can you tell by that picture?  If not you can try to walk me through what I need to do to get the answer.

 

I'll send you a private message to get the payment / shipping details worked out.

 

-BEP

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What you need 

46 minutes ago, bepnewt said:

 

 Can you tell by that picture?  If not you can try to walk me through what I need to do to get the answer.

 

 

-BEP

No, you can't tell by your picture.  Perhaps you can upon close inspection though.  I'll try to keep this as brief as possible.  The intake manifold for your engine has a "valley" in the carb mounting surface.  This "valley" allows hot exhaust gasses to warm the base of the carb.  To keep the exhaust gasses from corroding the aluminum body of the AFB carburetor, a heat shield is necessary.  The heat shield is made of stainless steel.  The exhaust gasses will heat, but not corrode, the stainless shield which in turn will heat the base of the carb.  You need a seal between the carb and the manifold.  So you install a fiber gasket on top of the manifold, put the stainless heat shield on top of the fiber gasket, then put the carb on top of the stainless gasket.  

 

When you take off the carb that's now on there, you'll be able to tell if it has the stainless gasket or not.  If not, you need to get one, if so and it appears to be in good shape, you're good to go.  

 

In the attached picture, you'll see a channel in the fiber gasket but not one in the stainless gasket.  The channel allow the heat from the exhaust gasses to reach the stainless but the stainless keeps those corrosive gasses from contacting the aluminum carburetor.

 

Buick nailhead 1957-1966 364-401-425 Carburetor heat plate baffle AFB shield

 

They're actually very inexpensive.  Probably worth the extra couple of $$ to have Tom ship you new ones along with the carb.  It's a heck of lot less expensive than ruining a new carb and starting from scratch again. 

 

Ed

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Thanks for the tech lesson, Ed.

 

3 minutes ago, RivNut said:

They're actually very inexpensive.  Probably worth the extra couple of $$ to have Tom ship you new ones along with the carb.  It's a heck of lot less expensive than ruining a new carb and starting from scratch again. 

 

Ed

 

I'm with Ed.  I'll skip the inspection of my car and just opt to go with the new gasket and plate.

 

-BEP

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Brian,

 

   I tried replying to the message 3 times now but get a failure notice each time so I will respond here.

 

   Yes, I CAN rebuild/re-bush (if nec.) those carbs. for you.

 

   The guy that has the carb. is on vacation. He will call me when he's back. May be a week or so. Then he will ship it to me.

 

   I WILL accept a personal check from you. Made out to myself & mailed to:

 

Classic & Muscle Automotive

C/O Tom Telesco

12 Cook St.

Norwalk, Ct. 06853-1601

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