Idle decent in Park, engine dies in Drive on '66 Toronado

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

I drove my '66 Toronado to a car show in Grand rapids, MN the other day... and every time I came to a stoplight, the engine started sputtering and coughing, and nearly died. I got into the habit of throwing it into neutral, and that seemed to work fine, untill I had to go again. It also idles relatively smooth in park, once it's warmed up.

Once I get up above 40-ish mph, all hesitation goes out the window and it runs smooth as silk. I know the last time I drove it, it did not have this issue... but that was over a month ago now. The only thing I've changed, is attatching the carburetor rod, dropping/repairing gas tank, and changed the oil.

Checked my trans fluid, all full.

In pursuit of repairing it, I replaced the distributor cap/rotor (I had them on hand anyway), with no effect.

I noticed the metal on the outside of the sparkplugs was white and chalky, which is a symptom of running lean, or burning coolant, correct? Many months ago, I had a very slight coolant leak. I put a quarter of a bottle of BarsLeak in the coolant system and it went away. I didn't change, or look at the plugs at that point, never occurred to me. So maybe they've been that way since then, but I don't remember them being white when I changed my spark-plug wires. (After fixing the coolant) Again, didn't pay much attention at the time.

So, I set about replacing spark plugs, and fuel filter... Car seems to idle in park more stable, but in drive it still dies... Also... I think I stripped the threads on the carb inlet... It just wouldn't stop dripping, and it was one more 10th of a turn at a time T.T

Pretty sure I got plenty of fuel. After turning off the engine, I removed the fuel line and it shot out all over the place. So I've got good fuel flow and pressure. With fuel, and spark out of the way, that should leave air... and the dreaded vacuum lines....

While fighting with the dripping fuel, I removed the vacuum line from right above the fuel inlet, and the engine promptly died. Removing a small hose like that should affect the RPM's, but it shouldn't kill the engine should it?

I had replaced the short vacuum lines under the hood. PCV, Distributor, transmission... but I didn't touch the brake booster, or the accessory line. That accessory line will be a nightmare if that's the issue... Headlights, trunk release, the countless lines for Comfortron system...

I'll start poking around the vacuum lines tomorrow, but I figured I'd post now and see if there were any other suggestions.

Thanks.

[Guest rsd9699]

Put a T in-line with the pb hose and use a vacuum gage to check for drops in vacuum as you pinch the various lines closed - the a/c vacuum feed line is the only one to pinch before messing with the other lines.

If you have stripped the carb - they had two fixes. one was an oversize filter housing - the other was a rubber coupling tightened in place. A thin strip of neoprene works good as does some thick Teflon tape - not the box store stuff but you could use it with lots of wraps. Sometimes you can use a thick o-ring if the nut is not completely striped of threads.

Ron

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Put a T in-line with the pb hose and use a vacuum gage to check for drops in vacuum as you pinch the various lines closed - the a/c vacuum feed line is the only one to pinch before messing with the other lines.

If you have stripped the carb - they had two fixes. one was an oversize filter housing - the other was a rubber coupling tightened in place. A thin strip of neoprene works good as does some thick Teflon tape - not the box store stuff but you could use it with lots of wraps. Sometimes you can use a thick o-ring if the nut is not completely striped of threads.

Ron

'kay, I'll get a new line for the brakes while I'm at it, and start doing the testing either today or tomorrow.

For the carb... I have a couple ideas for a temporary fix. My favorite getting a piece of rubber hose with the inner diameter of the tube the same as the outer diameter of the filter housing, sliding a chunk wider than the gap, and throwing a hose clamp on it. Should be safe, and reliable repair until I get that new carb I've been planning.

The O-ring is my #2 plan. I think the threads are still half-decent. I'll have to pull it out after work and take a look though.

Thanks.

[NTX5467]

Sounds kind of like the base idle speed is too slow. If there are any significant vacuum leaks, the idle speed would probably be higher and shakier, I would suspect.

After you get the vacuum lines checked/replaced, you might get the base timing checked, the carb base idle and idle mixture settings checked/adjusted, to make sure they are all as they need to be. What about the distributor's vacuum advance unit?

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Good news! Pulled fuel line, and threads are still perfect. Infact, it looks like someone installed a heli-coil previously, and did it well. My gasket is annihilated however. I'm going to attempt to replace it with an o-ring for a bit easier seal. Then I won't have to fear stripping it anymore.

The primary reason i'm suspicious of vacuum, is the white chalky spark plugs. Which probably either means too much air or not enough fuel.

I set the timing less than a month ago, so I should be good there.

As for the idle screws, I was thinking they wouldm't come into play when you kicked it into drive. But, now that I think about.it, it the idle bypass wouldn't actuate unless the throttle is stepped on. Carb doesn't know/care what gear it's in.

I rebuilt the carb a couple months ago, and tuned everything else as best I could, but just reset the idle screws to where they were. I'll doible check that once I replace the rest of the vacuum lines, they're almost 50 years old now...

Edited August 4, 2011 by Twilight Fenrir (see edit history)

[Guest rsd9699]

You may also remover the idle screws and make sure they have not been twisted off by seating them to hard. Then shoot some carb cleaner into the screw holes followed by a good blast of compressed air to clear any passages that have gotten contaminated then put screws back in - seated lightly - turned out 1 1/2 turns to start the initial idle setting.

Set idle rpm in drive - a/c on - block wheels and set emergency brake and have someone set in drivers seat with foot on brake - be safe!

If the plugs have gotten that hot - replace them and run a compression check to see if you have burnt valves.

Ron

Edited August 4, 2011 by rsd9699
add more text (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

I believe the idle speed specs will be for the vehicle in "P", typically, BUT that should also correlate to a smooooth idle when in gear with the a/c on and the foot brakes applied.

Here's my "non-patented" "shadetree" idle adjustment procedure -- proceed at your own risk. I prototyped this in the early 1970s and found it to work very nicely . . . especially on a single-exhaust vehicle.

First thing would be to get the factory specs and do the "base settings" to them. Ignition point dwell (where applicable) in specs FIRST. Then base idle ignition timing to factory specs and conditions.

Next comes the "finesse" part, which is my part. With the idle speed and mixtures good according to a dwell tach, I'd put the engine into gear, foot brakes firmly applied, and see how the idle was. I'd lightly blip the throttle to see how the off-idle response would be. Then, I'd also firmly apply the parking brake and make sure the vehicle did not move. Then I'd go back to the tail pipe and feel its pulses with the palm of my hand. Also, this would also put the "smell" of the exhaust on my hand. If I smelled hydrocarbons or richness, I'd tweek the mixture a slight bit leaner and make up for any speed loss with a "touch" of the idle speed screw . . . then recheck a minute later. If I felt individual pulses, that meant the speed "in gear with a/c" was a hair too low, so I'd raise it until it just smoooothed out, then recheck the mixture adj on the carb and also at the end of the tailpipe. I figured that if the exhaust pulses were smooooth, then the engine would have a smooother feel, too. Only thing was that you couldn't repeat the "smell test" too often on the same hand, so there are limitations that way. End result was that the exhaust pulses would be one continuous smooooth flow and the smell would be basically "nothing".

After doing these things, which became easier after I had the baseline settings established, I'd then put the vehicle in "P" and see how things acted. One thing to make sure of is that when the ignition is turned "off", the engine dies directly with no additiona "run-on" or "dieseling" action! When I started doing this, it was on a '66 Chrysler 383 2bbl V-8 and also on our '69 Chevy 1/2 pickup 350 4bbl V-8. The factory settings for the Chrysler ended up being very close to what I found to work the best for that car. On the Chevy pickup, when I got things "right", the base idle speed was 780rpm, which seemed too high, but it caused no problems other than a harder engagement into "D" (seems that all '69 THM400s in Chevy pickups had a higher basic line pressure than other years, for some reason, which affected the "D" engagement firmness), but it would behave perfectly in all other aspects, including idling in gear for extended lengths of time with the a/c on (Dad liked to stop and talk on the country roads back then) and NOT overheat or do anything else it wasn't supposed to do . . . in the heat of TX summers. If, per chance, the elevated idle speed had resulted in suspected dieselling, then I would have had to adjust things to stop that.

On some vehicles in some operational situations, factory specs might need to be slightly deviated from to get things to work better. Only thing is that you have to play with them to see if that's possible rather than arbitrarily setting it "to specs" and stopping there. I consider "to specs" to be a starting point rather than an ending point, unless they've proven to be both to me on that particular vehicle.

If the spark plugs are chalky white on the center insulators, I'd ensure that they are the correct heat range for the engine, or even possibly one heat range colder than specs.

Please keep us posted on what you find!

NTX5467

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Alright, I haven't touched the idle just yet, however I replaced the vacuum.lines, and hooked up a vacuum gauge. The needle flickers back and forth between 11-15 really, really fast. It's just shy of being a blurr. I sat and blocked off one line at a time, and this never changed. I'm somewhat suspicious of my carb mpunting gasket, but I doubt i'll get off that easy now.

Research has shown this vacuum reading is almost certainly a valve issue :-S I was really hoping not to have to take engine appart just yet, but it seems it may.be inevitable. I bought a compression check tool, so i'll run that and see what I find before I get too carried away.

I didn't think valves just went like that... Being fine (well, good enough) to shot.

As for the plugs, there were some of those e-3 things in there, I chicked them in favor of some ac delco's. The regular idle in park has smoothed out a bit woth all my tinkering, but as soon as it goes to park it starts sputtering, and dies within half a minute.

Anywho, tomorrow will be my first day off since this started, so i'll have some real time to tinker. Will try the timing and idle, then start pulling plugs for compression tests.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Twilight Fenrir (see edit history)

[Guest rsd9699]

The vacuum gage is likely right on the valves assumming you have ensured all points for a vacuum leak have been accounted for - by using a hose or the propane methods.

I prefer the ac plugs - especially nos plugs. Worked when new without failure.

Keep us informed of the readings - 10 to 15 percent variance is reasonable. I use the finger method myself - a finger in a sparkplug hole - if it don't blow your finger out - it is weak. Could be burnt valve or bent valve or a bent or missing pushrod (check with valve covers off). Cam can be flat - had that on my 69 olds with 210 k miles but you would have lifter noise.

Ron

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

The vacuum gage is likely right on the valves assumming you have ensured all points for a vacuum leak have been accounted for - by using a hose or the propane methods.

I prefer the ac plugs - especially nos plugs. Worked when new without failure.

Keep us informed of the readings - 10 to 15 percent variance is reasonable. I use the finger method myself - a finger in a sparkplug hole - if it don't blow your finger out - it is weak. Could be burnt valve or bent valve or a bent or missing pushrod (check with valve covers off). Cam can be flat - had that on my 69 olds with 210 k miles but you would have lifter noise.

Ron

The only vacuum leak point I don't have a 100% on, is the carb mounting gasket. When I rebuilt my carb, I ordered a new one from oReily's, but the date kept getting pushed back... So i just cleaned and used my old one. I did order a new one, and will put it on when it gets here.

I bought an actual compression tester, it was in-expensive. I'll start off tomorrow with checking the timing, and the idle mixture. Then I'll run a compression test. Depending on the results, I'll pop my valve cover off and inspect.

I just looked up what causes sticking valves, and apparently it's mostly junk building up. Which, actually makes kinda good sense. I had thrown full synthetic oil shortly before I started having the problems. All the detergents int he oil could have swirled some gunk that was stuck up there around the valves before it had a chance to go through the filter.

I could still get lucky and have an easy fix yet! Pry up the valve covers, pour some Seafoam over the valves and let 'em soak As long as there's no physical damage to the valves. I imagine a bit breaking off the valve would make some noise, and there hasn't been any strange sounds, so I might get lucky there.

[NTX5467]

A shadetree way of check for a burnt valve is with a shop rag placed over the tail pipe. Rather than a smooooth flow, you'll see it suck the rag into the pipe whenever the burnt valve's cylinder is on the intake stroke.

A burnt valve will show up more under load than at idle or cruise, although more throttle will be needed when you're going up a hill at highway speed . . . more than normal. The vacuum gauge readings do indicate a dead cylinder, though, from whatever cause.

Another situation could be some of the accumulation on the backside of the intake valve might have become dislodged and found its way between a valve and the valve seat.

It won't hurt to run the motor with a burnt valve, if that's what it is. It'll just take more throttle input and fuel.

The usual cause of a burnt valve is that the valve guides have enough wear, in combination with the wear on the valve stem, to allow the valve to not seat squarely on the machined valve seat area when it closes. That little bit of wobble, eventually, will result in a "hot spot" on the valve's edge which will erode and increase in size as time progresses.

Now, several years ago, I had an issue with my '68 Buick 350-4bbl LeSabre Custom Model 67. At random times, it would act like it was running out of gas. It did it when I first got it and was checking it out . . . at idle. If I caught it before it died, pumped the gas pedal several times, it'd pick back up and run fine. Or I could be driving down the highway and it'd start wanting to die. I'd start pumping the gas . . . sometimes it'd pick back up and other times it took extended crank time to get it to re-start. But usually it would not idle, so I'd have to have it at about the slowest fast idle I felt it would run at as I chunked it quickly into gear (making sure the rh rear tire was on dirt to minimize driveline shock). One night, I felt lucky to get it back to my shadetree shop! At that time, I had a bag cellphone that plugged into the cigarette lighter . . . which didn't work.

I had noticed that the prior owner had cut the fuel line between the pump and the carb and spliced it with a rubber hose. Possibly for a pressure gauge take-off? Anyway, I got industrious one night and installed a new fuel pump . . . ALSO discovering that the front bolt and rear bolt holding the pump to the timing cover ARE DIFFERENT!!! Front bolt has a flange head, but is smooooth on the bottom of the flange head. The rear bolt has a flange head, but has serrations on the bottom of the flange head. Front bolt is to locate and accomodate movement of the pump as it might work, whereas the rear bolt is to firmly nail-down the pump and "bite" into the pump body's mounting flange to keep everything situated and solid -- who would've ever suspected that detail???

After the pump was installed and I got it fired-off, it ran more responsively that it ever had! The prior owner must have been having some of these problems as he didn't want his daughter to take it off to college with her, which might also explain the altered fuel line.

I hope that the carb base gasket you ordered was an OEM-spec gasket. Usually, that should be a 1/4" thick paper-based gasket with plastic bushings for the mounting holes to keep from compressing the gasket too unevenly and breaking the baseplate of the carb. On some QJets back there, they also used a stainless steel plate against the carb base if the manifold has a "heat track" on the front of it, in front of the primaries. It usually had a softer composite gasket that went under it, as I recall. I know it sounds flaky for a thin stainless steel gasket to be "bare" against the bottom of the carb, but it works.

Please keep us posted.

NTX5467

Edited August 7, 2011 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

And the results are in... not good

1: 168 2: 153

3: 15/90/15 4: 173

5: 150 6: 155

7: 155 8: 155

I cranked the starter for about 10 seconds per cyl, and wrote down the numbers. #3 I did a few times, hoping I had the tool mis-seated. After the first time, I became optimistic when it jumped from 15 to 90, I fiddled with it a bit more and it's back down to 15. It kept wiggling, but it never got up near the rest of the cyl's.

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Well, I took off my valve cover to have a look underneath, I figured I would hand-crank the engine and see if all the valves were moving. After going over the valve-train with a fine tooth comb, and reading every minute detail, I've determined the answer!

My rocker stud broke!

Which, also broke the little bridge-y thing that goes between the two valves on the #3 cyl.

The real question is going to be getting that broken bolt out... I know it should be cake for a machine shop, but is there any way I can safely perform the task? Or, if I have to bring it to a machine shop, can I drive the car there and have it done? Or do I need to pull the head for them to do it?

Thank god it happened on an intake valve.

[Guest rsd9699]

Smear some grease around the broken stud and use a left hand drill bit to drill it out - get a new stud to use as a depth gage as to how deep to drill. Use a smaller bit than the stud. The grease helps trap the shavings. Plug all the "holes" around to avoid flying shavings from droping into the engine. Check that push rod for being bent as that is likely a stuck valve but it does look nice and clean. May need a tap and a ez-out.

Ron

[NTX5467]

To me, a question would be "How far is it over the fender to that cylinder head?"

If you can get a good access to the nub of the bolt, you can start drilling a small hole in the center (carefully, to make sure it's very close to the center) and then progressively increase the size of the drill bit until you're basically at the size of the bolt hole. Then, you could probably take an angled pick and remove the threads like a heli-coil of sorts.

Conventional wisdom would include the use of an ez-out, but my experiences with them has been flaky. Getting the item firmly seated in the initial guide hole, then turning it against the inside of the hole, usually puts even more pressure on the (possibly) stuck threads, which can result in the ez-out being broken-off inside of the threads. Possibly might use a tap to put some threads inside of the hole and then use another smaller bolt to remove the broken bolt? At least, that's in theory.

Getting the car to a repair shop or machine shop that can do the repair without removing the cylinder head? I think it'd be more "peace of mind" to get a roll-back wrecker to transport the car. Even with the intake valve closed, the piston going up and down will create enough vacuum, in addition to any reversion from pressure pulses in the exhaust system, for compression to happen inside of the affected cylinder. If it was a normal burnt valve, that would not be a real issue, but with what's happened, it might be.

End result, I don't think it would be a really serious repair, all things considered. If you just wanted to get a full valve job done, that's your judgment call, but I really don't see any reason to pull the cylinder head from what I've seen in the pictures. Finding a new bridge/pivot might be more of an issue. Your judgment call.

Of course, now that you conclusively know what the malfunction is, you can get the fix done at your leisure.

Please keep us posted.

Take care,

NTX5467

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

To me, a question would be "How far is it over the fender to that cylinder head?"

End result, I don't think it would be a really serious repair, all things considered. If you just wanted to get a full valve job done, that's your judgment call, but I really don't see any reason to pull the cylinder head from what I've seen in the pictures. Finding a new bridge/pivot might be more of an issue. Your judgment call.

Of course, now that you conclusively know what the malfunction is, you can get the fix done at your leisure.

Please keep us posted.

Take care,

NTX5467

Lots of room for drilling

Awesome... Pulling the head is what I really did NOT want to do. I plan on rebuilding the entire engine down the line, but I don't want to have to start taking it apart until that point if at all possible.

I'll probably try and make a guide with a drillpress, or just welding a narrow tube to a piece of steel to make sure I go in at the right angle. Worst case scenario, I wind up having to buy a new cyl head.

One of the guys on my Toronado forum just replaced his original heads with aluminum Eddelbrock heads, so I might be able to buy a pivot from him. Already asked, waiting to hear back. Otherwise, I know where there's a few 1st gen toro's in a salvage yard I can go scavange if need be.

Thanks a bunch to everyone for their help. I'll post back when I get it fixed.

[Guest rsd9699]

If you can hit it with an arc welder that may help free the threads. A slow speed hand drill is the best You can start small with bits and work your way up in sizes. Left hand bits some times helps back out the stud. A left hand tap lets use a left grade 5 bolt and jam nut to try backing it out - if all else fails - you it all the way out and heli-coil like the shop would.

I agree that the ez-out is iffy - been there - done that with breaking one off. You drive it down and drill it out again. Not fun.

I can not tell from the photo how much of the stud is poking out - they make a tool for this if you have like 1/2 inch to play with.

Ron

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

If you can hit it with an arc welder that may help free the threads. A slow speed hand drill is the best You can start small with bits and work your way up in sizes. Left hand bits some times helps back out the stud. A left hand tap lets use a left grade 5 bolt and jam nut to try backing it out - if all else fails - you it all the way out and heli-coil like the shop would.

I agree that the ez-out is iffy - been there - done that with breaking one off. You drive it down and drill it out again. Not fun.

I can not tell from the photo how much of the stud is poking out - they make a tool for this if you have like 1/2 inch to play with.

Ron

Well, the bolt is not sticking out, it's recessed. I'll pick up some left-handed bits after work. The bolt is really quite small, it's inly about 1/4" diameter... Much smaller than the ones on my camino, no way i'll be able to tap and stick a bolt in it.

At least it's been a well libricated part, so it shouldn't be rusted in.

I took a quick peek at my pushrod, and it's hanging up on something. I can pull it out but it takes a little effort. The rod is not bent, but it's got a few good scratches in the metal, presumably from whateer is making it difficultto pull out. I'll stick one of those magnetic retrieval things down there. Hopefully it's just a shaving from the broken bolt...

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Wow... okay, that was almost too easy... I think I need to take a hammer to it so I have more to fix >_> It started turning as soon as I took the drill bit to it.

Anywho, got the stud out, got my new pivot on order. Just waitin' for parts. Thanks

[Guest rsd9699]

I kind of figured as much.

To snap off that low means it has been loose for a long time. Check the other bolts - is any are loose replace them as well as metal fatigue is the likely problem and just waiting to happen. Check the other side as well.

I was also going to suggest the use of a center punch to place your bit. Got to love left hand bits!

Ron

[Guest rsd9699]

On the push rod - put something down beside the rod to keep the lifter in place - the rod may be varnished to the lifter and if you pull the lifter out - you may need to pull the intake to get it back in its hole.

Ron

[NTX5467]

I'm glad things are progressing as well as they are! Remember to hold your mouth just so . . .

NTX5467

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Yeah, I'm going to Fastenal to pick up 16 brand new bolts... just to be sure.

As for the push rod, I figured it out... after the rocker broke it fell down and got lodged beneath the lifter at a funny angle. Which is why it was difficult to remove. Once I realized this, and corrected for it upon re-insertion, it went in without any effort just as it should.

So... As soon as my new pivot arives, I should be good!

[NTX5467]

From the markings on the bolt heads, they look like Grade 8 bolts ("six" lines = Grade 8). Make sure the ones you get match the original bolts as to the flange head design and hardness.

Looks like things are going welll!

Take care,

NTX5467

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

From the markings on the bolt heads, they look like Grade 8 bolts ("six" lines = Grade 8). Make sure the ones you get match the original bolts as to the flange head design and hardness.

Looks like things are going welll!

Take care,

NTX5467

Yup, the new ones I ordered are grade 8 flange-bolta. Couldn't get 'em plain, had to get zinc-coated... So they'll be shiney

[NTX5467]

Sounds great!

NTX5467

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Well... it just turned back into a can of worms...

The push-rod recess too far into the block, it doesn't seat against the rocker. I cranked the engine, and the rod still gets moved up and down by the lifter, but it doesn't stick out enough.

For the heck of it I compared it to the exhaust valve rod, and it's the same length, also the same length as the intake on cyl 1.

So, I'm probably looking at replacing the lifter... or, god forbid, the camshaft?

[NTX5467]

Hopefully, you might be able to view the camshaft lobes through some oil drain back holes in the center of the lifter valley? If there's wear there, it'll be very evident compared to the other lobes.

Seems like there's a tool to remove valve lifters with. Might need to hit the top of the lifter bore with some Berrymans B12 to remove a possible ring of varnish there. Hopefully, the spring inside of the hydraulic lifter has just collapsed, which might have allowed too much moverment, or something, which is what broke the rocker arm bridge.

Please keep us posted . . .

NTX5467

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Might need to hit the top of the lifter bore with some Berrymans B12 to remove a possible ring of varnish there. Hopefully, the spring inside of the hydraulic lifter has just collapsed, which might have allowed too much moverment, or something, which is what broke the rocker arm bridge.

Please keep us posted . . .

NTX5467

Would it be possible to do this without removing the intake manifold? Maybe take my can of Seafoam Deep Creep and squirt it down the pushrod hole, and hope to high heck it works?

The rod does still rise and fall, it's just in there half an inch more than it should be. :-S

[Guest rsd9699]

I would think that you count rent a scope to look at the lifter. I had to buy a scope and then return it as none of the box stores rented it.

It could be trash from the broken mount fell into the valve bore as you lifted it out if the lifter was stuck to the push rod. Or the retainer that holds the lifter together has given way and allowed the lifter to come apart. Or as NTX5467 painted out the lifter is jammed down hard and varnish and lack of oil pressure has the lifter bottomed out.

Scope is you best bet at the moment without pulling the intake.

At night you could shine a flash light like a pen light and have a look see. Led lights do not work from my attempted uses.

If the lifter came apart you will need to pull the intake and maybe the pan to find the pieces.

Keep after it!

Ron

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

I would think that you count rent a scope to look at the lifter. I had to buy a scope and then return it as none of the box stores rented it.

It could be trash from the broken mount fell into the valve bore as you lifted it out if the lifter was stuck to the push rod. Or the retainer that holds the lifter together has given way and allowed the lifter to come apart. Or as NTX5467 painted out the lifter is jammed down hard and varnish and lack of oil pressure has the lifter bottomed out.

Scope is you best bet at the moment without pulling the intake.

At night you could shine a flash light like a pen light and have a look see. Led lights do not work from my attempted uses.

If the lifter came apart you will need to pull the intake and maybe the pan to find the pieces.

Keep after it!

Ron

Well, I took a look down there through the pushrod hole, and the lifter appears to be intact. Obviously couldn't see any cracks if they were there, but the seat and everything appear fine.

The car sat in a garage for at least 30 years before I bought it. I'd say the odds of something being gummed up are pretty decent. From what I've read, it's somewhat common for lifters to drain of oil over a few months of not running. So it could have done that, then junk built up...

I'm going to continue being optimistic until I've got no other choice I'll start with my Deep Creep, and let it soak and see what happens... maybe it will pop back and I won't have to tear the intake off.

Someone suggested that if I have to replace the lifter, I have to replace all the lifters... and if I replace the lifters, I have to replace the cam... If I replace the cam, I have to pull the engine... ugh

EDIT: Alright, I took a bit closer look and the bore around the lifter is nice and pretty clean... I squirted some deep creep, and let it soak, but i'm not optimistic anymore.

Luckily, looking back over it, I don't think it will be as big of a pain to remove the intake as it was on my El Camino. So if I can just swap out the lifters it won't be the end of the world. But if I have to replace the cam...

Edited August 13, 2011 by Twilight Fenrir (see edit history)

[Guest rsd9699]

Well if you can see down the push rod hole - pull the coil wire and have some one crank it while you watch - at tdc - you should be able to see if the lifter is down (collapsed - lots of shiny metal if not full of oil) - your lost 1/2 inch.

With a magnetic retrieval tool you can lift the lifter out of its bore and see if the cam is going flat. It will be rough looking and the bottom of the lifter will be concave.

On the lifter replacement - depends on what you are planning to do with the car. Tool around town - put in a lifter - driving several K miles a year - you do more.

A/C equipped car? My 69 98 had rubber hoses to condenser - pulled the rad and swung the condenser out of the way - pulled the old cam - new lifters (intake off) - new chain and cam gear.

I drove the car from Houston to ft. worth with the cam flat on 2 cylinders and the a/c cooling me and the radio blaring to cover the lifter noise.

Ron

[Guest rsd9699]

The oil pressure is the spring that will push the lifter up. The push rod and rocker need to be in place. Maybe cranking will create the pressure you need for it to "pop" up. Else pull the distributor and spin the oil pump by drill to get it to "pop" up. Or just run the engine - you can not break what is broken.

Ron

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Fired up the engine to see if it would pop up, and it did not. The service manual actually recomended thwapping the rocker with a mallet while the engine was running, as it might clear debris from the check ball. It didn't do any good either.

I'll start with just replacing the lifter, and see how it goes from there... If the cam is shot, it's not an issue if it gets more shot I'll do more as more is required...

Will keep you updated.

[Guest rsd9699]

Well rats!!!!!!!!!!

You got some great pointers but if it is broke - it is broke!

That was my problem - 400 miles from home - just drive it on home - what else can go wrong - thankfully nothing.

I saw a 66 or 67 in a used car lot in lewisville tx - wanted 3995 - just last Thursday - I had to do a double take as you don't normally see one on a lot.

I wanted a 76 Toro bad - saw a new fire engine red and white interior one at the Tx state fair in 76. Tried to buy it the following Monday but it was already sold and it was too late to order another one. Never saw another one that color combo. I knew the red was special order as I tried to buy a 88 in 73 and it was available on the 72's and then the gas crunch.

Ya snooze ya lose.

Ron

[NTX5467]

Usually if there is varnish in the lifter bore, it'll be at the upper and lower limits of the lifter's normal travel. Just restricting removing it rather than it's mechanical operation and "range of motion".

With a used camshaft, you can replace just the failed lifter, but if the lobe is flaky, then it's time for a new cam/lifter set. When you get the lifter out, the bottom of it will "tell the tale".

In an in-chassis camshaft change, plan on taking everything between the front grille (including the grille) and the engine out of the car, from my experiences. In some cases, you can swing things out of the way, but they can then get in the way in other ways, too, so complete removal might be the most expeditious way to do things. If the a/c condenser can be relocated, that can be a plus due to the possibly-existing refrigerant issues--just have to try it and see.

For camshaft handling, find a long bolt(s) to screw into the cam's snout (where the timing sprocket attaches) so you can better "aim" the cam without having to touch the lobes of cam bearing surfaces. At this time, the cam bearing surfaces, distributor gear interface, and the cam lobes should probably have some sort of pre-lube on them (hopefully the moly paste on the camshaft lobes and GM EOS Concentrate on the cam bearing surfaces).

For long term durability, I might recommend a Cloyes Plus Roller timing chain upgrade. It might have a little "bicycle chain" noise with the engine idling, but I had one for over 450K miles in my '77 Camaro 305 (putting it in at 92K and then the engine was replaced at 576K (all four block freeze plugs were leaking . . . the replacement 350 had been built for quite a while already)). Not a "full roller", but something of a "hybrid roller". I made sure to douse it liberally with GM EOS Concentrate, too, especially the wear surface on the back of the cam sprocket, when I put it all together. Plus pouring another can of it into the lifter valley, which then dripped onto the camshaft lobes, before I put the intake manifold back on.

Take care,

NTX5467

Edited August 16, 2011 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

Bloody hell, either I've become even more of a wuss, or that intake manifold is HEAVY.

Anywho, once I got it off it became apparent that my lifter had infact come appart. All the pieces were right there though, except the check ball.... So, probably a no to rebuilding it. It's disgusting how much sludge there was in there, after this I'm going to run a bottle of seafoam in the oil and run it for a hundred or two miles then change the oil again, just to make sure I get the sludge out, and incase any debris got in there while I have it appart.

Everything looks pretty good under there, I even removed the little rail in the center of the valley to clean it, and I discovered the camshaft is right there, lol. Never actually seen one before. All the lobes look pretty, there's no unusual wear patterns that I can see, but I'm only looking at a stationary point. The surface appears to be straight across, no grooves worn into anything.

But, now I have another thing to add to my "things I now must do" list. While trying to remove the fuel line to the carb, I broke the little "T" fitting ont he side of the fuel pump. I tried to hold it still with a crescent wrench while I torqued on it with the flare wrench, but it just snapped right off... Can I find this part seperate, or do I need to get a new fuel pump? I think I can EZ-out the part still in the fuel pump.

And, on that note, I'm off to o'Reily's to pick up some break-in oil, and RTV silicone. My new lifter and intake gasket should be ariving any time now from Fedex.

[NTX5467]

As for that brass fuel block, that could be fairly common in factory fuel systems, BUT you might have to "seek" one. You might also need to get a "splice" that will screw into the fuel block and the pump, too, to complete what the factory piece originally was. You might search some of the Corvette restoration sources as Chevy used some brass fuel blocks in their multi-carb fuel systems of the 1960s and probably in the Holley 3310 4bbl fuel lines on Corvettes and early Z-28s.

Up until about a year ago, I'd never heard of Seafoam, but now it seems to be everywhere. In the past, people did use Berryman's B12 for such things, too. I've had good results with Stewart-Warner Alemite CD-2 oil detergent. I'd do an oil change and add one pint. When the oil got 1 quart low, then I'd add another pint. When it got 1 quart low again, then I'd do an "Extended Drain" oil change with a hot motor. I also started pouring an extra quart of oil through the oil filler tube after the oil drain period, in an effort to get any extra residual old oil out of the oil pan. Then, I'd do normal oil and filter changes after that.

Weren't there some aluminum versions of that same intake manifold??

I'm very glad it was just a valve lifter failure! The retainer ring must have gone somewhere to allow the guts to come out.

Regards,

NTX5467

Edited August 18, 2011 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest Twilight Fenrir]

As for that brass fuel block, that could be fairly common in factory fuel systems, BUT you might have to "seek" one. You might also need to get a "splice" that will screw into the fuel block and the pump, too, to complete what the factory piece originally was. You might search some of the Corvette restoration sources as Chevy used some brass fuel blocks in their multi-carb fuel systems of the 1960s and probably in the Holley 3310 4bbl fuel lines on Corvettes and early Z-28s.

Up until about a year ago, I'd never heard of Seafoam, but now it seems to be everywhere. In the past, people did use Berryman's B12 for such things, too. I've had good results with Stewart-Warner Alemite CD-2 oil detergent. I'd do an oil change and add one pint. When the oil got 1 quart low, then I'd add another pint. When it got 1 quart low again, then I'd do an "Extended Drain" oil change with a hot motor. I also started pouring an extra quart of oil through the oil filler tube after the oil drain period, in an effort to get any extra residual old oil out of the oil pan. Then, I'd do normal oil and filter changes after that.

Weren't there some aluminum versions of that same intake manifold??

I'm very glad it was just a valve lifter failure! The retainer ring must have gone somewhere to allow the guts to come out.

Regards,

NTX5467

I think I'm going to actually order a braided fuel line kit from JEGS, and throw that instead, no need for that block, and it will be pretty I do plan on dressing up the engine bay in the future...

Unfortunately, I've got to take out my fuel pump now. I tried to remove the broken part with an ez-out, but it didn't work, the brass was too soft and just stripped. With as much as I'm going to have to remove to get the fuel pump out so I can fix it, and with the potential of loosing a metal shaving in there and ruining it... I think I'm just going to replace it with a new one...

There are 2 different aluminum intakes available. But none of them have the heat-crossover pipe, which would necessitate me buying a new carburetor as well. Which would lead to all kinds of trouble with the Switch-pitch switch/kickdown switch.

Another slight hicup, the lifter I ordered from autozone doesn't fit... it's much smaller than the original one. I found a pair on e-bay for $10 with free expidited shipping, so I went with that. I'll replace both the intake, and the exhaust since I'll have it.

Got some Melling break-in oil today, so I'll smear 'em up and throw 'em in when they get here.

Quick question, is it okay to wait a few days after I re-assemble to do the startup-break in? I know I need to use break in oil on the cam and lifter when I put them back, and that I need to run the car at 2k rpm for 20-30 minutes for best results. Will the oil run away if I let it sit?

Edited August 18, 2011 by Twilight Fenrir (see edit history)

[Guest rsd9699]

Just think - for every old American car crushed - you can make 3 little import shoe box cars.

Quality generally means heavy metal - not the music kind....

I would go for a new/rebuilt fuel pump that is good for todays cheap gas.

I would put in a magnetic drain plug to capture all the odds and ends floating in the drain pan. Change the filter - pour oil in the new filter to prime it.

I am not a big believer in using things like sea breeze on or during engine repairs. You are trying to get a new part to work with an old part and the lube needs to be at its tip top best - not watered down with trash swimming in your oil.

I would run 20-50 as my break in oil.

Then after 500 miles change to what ever grade you think you can trust plus go to a diesel truck center and get come detergent concentrate

- in my 83/84 Olds - I run 20-50 year round at they are over the 250 k mile mark but I am also in Texas so no winter worries.

If you are going to "store" the car over the winter - I would change it just before storage and drive it for a couple of hours to drive the moisture out of every thing - dump some stuff in the gas tank as well and fill it to keep moisture to a minimum.

Ron

Edited August 18, 2011 by rsd9699 (see edit history)