JV Puleo Posted August 3, 2017 Share Posted August 3, 2017 These pages are from Volume II of P.M. Heldt's Gasoline Automobiles (1911 Edition). He doesn't actually have much to say about full elliptic springs and his statistics at the beginning of the chapter say that only 5% of cars in 1910 used them. However, his discussion of spring attachments may be useful. I would leave the curved piece in as you have it but make it out of metal. I would also add the "cushion" Heldt talks about although his "2 layers of 8oz duck soaked in white lead" is probably not doable. I'd use a piece of offset printing blanket. Its very tough, rubber bonded to cloth – completely waterproof and much denser that it looks. Blankets are very precisely made and when the get even a small "dent" in them, no longer usable. Every offset printer has dead ones laying around. (We used the damaged ones to print envelopes if the dent wasn't in the place where the printing in the corner went.) I can send you some if you need it... I've go more than I'll ever use. The springs on my Mitchell had leather pads... very dried out and hard as rock now. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted August 3, 2017 Author Share Posted August 3, 2017 Wow, that is fantastic info!! Thanks Joe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bharper Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Thank you, JV Puleo, this information may be useful to me as I continue to sort out my 1914 Metz Model 22. Best Regards, Bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 Thank you, Luv2rench is doing a very good job and it's a pleasure to be of some help. I tend to proselytize for DIY very early car restoration so, if you have a problem I might be able to help with, don't hesitate to contact me. I freely admit to having no interest in "show quality" restorations, believing that over restoration is no different than under restoration. To my mind, getting them working, safe to drive and looking reasonably good is a workable and reasonable goal for anyone willing to put in the labor. One interesting thing about early cars that I never see mentioned is that they are very simple machines made of durable materials. There is no pot metal and most of the parts were made on relatively simple machines... in that sense they are easier to refurbish than many 1940s and 50s cars with elaborate parts that can't reasonably be fabricated or are made of plastic and other materials that degrade with time regardless of how much use they get. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 Finally got a prototype for the bottom mount that is close enough that I'm ready to make the real parts. All the top pieces have been completed so once I get these bottom pieces made I'll be able to hang the axles! Actually I'll only be able to hang the front axle as the rear axle has a broken spring clip. I'll need to get that fixed before I can hang the rear axle... but I'm getting closer. It will be a big momentum boost to see the front axle attached to the chassis. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Coyote Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Looks good. Keep rolling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Looks good Jeff. Did you learn if the original spacers were made of wood? If so, what wood would be best? I would think it would have to be something very tough but not brittle and prone to split. jp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted October 4, 2017 Author Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) Thanks Joe. Yes, I was able to get Andy (who now has 3 Metz Roadsters) to look at his and he was able to confirm they were indeed wood. He was also kind enough to send some very detailed pictures of the area and thus I've been able to make some good parts. Even the 'simple' retaining brackets had some extra detail that I hadn't noticed in other pictures (like the bump-outs that keep the U-Bolts from wandering too far away). I believe the wood used in the spacers was either Hickory or Ash. I'll probably go with Hickory. Edited October 5, 2017 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 (edited) I would imagine hickory is a dense, oily wood that is very durable, hence used for tool handles etc.? Edited October 5, 2017 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bleach Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 40 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said: I would image hickory is a dense, oily wood that is very durable, hence used for tool handles etc.? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) Of the North American Hardwoods, Hickory is the beast. Wood Species Specific Gravity* Compressive Strength (psi) Bending Strength (psi) Stiffness (Mpsi) Hardness (lb) Alder, Red 0.41 5,820 9,800 1.38 590 Ash 0.60 7,410 15,000 1.74 1,320 Aspen 0.38 4,250 8,400 1.18 350 Basswood 0.37 4,730 8,700 1.46 410 Beech 0.64 7,300 14,900 1.72 1,300 Birch, Yellow 0.62 8,170 16,600 2.01 1,260 Butternut 0.38 5,110 8,100 1.18 490 Cherry 0.50 7,110 12,300 1.49 950 Chestnut 0.43 5,320 8,600 1.23 540 Elm 0.50 5,520 11,800 1.34 830 Hickory 0.72 9,210 20,200 2.16 1,880 Maple, Hard 0.63 7,830 15,800 1.83 1,450 Maple, Soft 0.54 6,540 13,400 1.64 950 Oak, Red 0.63 6,760 14,300 1.82 1,290 Oak, White 0.68 7,440 15,200 1.78 1,360 Poplar 0.42 5,540 10,100 1.58 540 Sassafras 0.46 4,760 9,000 1.12 † Sweetgum 0.52 6,320 12,500 1.64 850 Sycamore 0.49 5,380 10,000 1.42 770 Walnut 0.55 7,580 14,600 1.68 1,010 I picked a nice 8/4 board today from a local sawmill, it sure is some tough stuff. I'm glad my tools are in top shape. I got a good start working on the lower spacers and with any luck should get the rest done this weekend. Edited October 5, 2017 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 How about Black Locust. I don't suppose it's commonly sold but I have about 3 acres of them. jp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 Seems pretty similar to Hickory, definitely something that could be used. Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .66, .77 Janka Hardness: 1,700 lbf (7,560 N) Modulus of Rupture: 19,400 lbf/in2 (133.8 MPa) Elastic Modulus: 2,050,000 lbf/in2 (14.14 GPa) Crushing Strength: 10,200 lbf/in2 (70.3 MPa) Shrinkage: Radial: 4.6%, Tangential: 7.2%, Volumetric: 10.2%, T/R Ratio: 1.6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAG473 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Jeff, Are the front springs 30" and rear springs 36" ? Wayne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 MAG473: I measure 30" for my front springs and 33" for my rear springs. I do not know if this is correct, but I do know of several Model 22's that have those measurements. Metz used what was available at the time so I'm sure there is a Metz somewhere with 36" rear springs. The front axle is now hung from the frame rails!! I have the parts completed for the rear axle but I still haven't repaired the broken spring clip so I can't mount the axle. Getting the old clip off has so far proved impossible but that's probably more a lack of skill on my part. I'm going to switch my torch to Propane/Oxy and try again with a rosebud tip. I'm running low on the Acetylene and, frankly, I really haven't gotten comfortable working with it after that day I looked at the regulator and it was well past 15psi. I did get the regulators rebuilt and they don't creep anymore but mentally I'm still not quite over it. I really need someone else in the shop that has some experience to work with me some. Once the mask goes on I get tunnel vision and really lose awareness. It is hard to be an apprentice when you're the only one in the shop. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAG473 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Luv2wrench, What it the measurement from top to bottom at the point where the bolt is located to hold the leaf springs together. I located a company in Ohio that makes these springs. Need to give them the dimensions to determine how much of an arc is required. Thanks in advance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 Here I am with my latest old Buick. I love pre-War Buick's. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chistech Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 On 10/5/2017 at 8:51 AM, JV Puleo said: How about Black Locust. I don't suppose it's commonly sold but I have about 3 acres of them. jp Locust was commonly used in the New England area for the rollers on the sterns of fishing boats to help get the dredges on deck. A nick name given it is “snag” as the grain is usually very twisted even in straight lengths on the tree making it a tough wood to split but a good wood to turn on a lathe depending on the item you wanted to turn. The wood is of a greenish tone like pistachio. Don’t believe it’s working quality is as good as hickory. It is oily and holds up very well to the elements making it especially good for fence posts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 27, 2017 Share Posted December 27, 2017 In our part of NE, the old expression was "Lasts 5 years longer than stone". I've only tried making something out of once... riser blocks for a workbench where the bottom of the legs had rotted off due to a wet basement. That was ten or 15 years ago. The basement isn't as wet as it was but the blocks look the same now as when I made them. I believe the first American icebreaker was built entirely of that wood. It was built in Scotland and the wood sent to the shipyard for the purpose. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted December 27, 2017 Author Share Posted December 27, 2017 On 12/18/2017 at 4:20 PM, MAG473 said: Luv2wrench, What it the measurement from top to bottom at the point where the bolt is located to hold the leaf springs together. I located a company in Ohio that makes these springs. Need to give them the dimensions to determine how much of an arc is required. Thanks in advance. Sorry, I missed this post. I'm confused as to which direction to measure. There are 4 bolts that had the leaf springs together. There are two that hold the top set of springs to the bottom set of springs. Then there are two bolts that hold the springs together that form the top set and the bottom set. I think you referencing these bolts and want to know the 'height' as I've already given you the 'length'. I will be out in the shop later this afternoon and I will measure that. If that isn't correct, I believe I've given you the other measure a few posts above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAG473 Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 The height measurements are what I'm looking for. My description was not clear. The height measurement at the center of the arc is what the shop needs to build the new springs. Thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted December 28, 2017 Share Posted December 28, 2017 I think that is called the arc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 1, 2018 Author Share Posted January 1, 2018 I very much apologize for the delay in getting the measurements. The front springs measured from outside to outside is 9.5" The rear springs measure 11.5" (again, outside to outside). My front spring are new so I believe those measurements to be correct. The rear springs are original and thus a bit tired though I don't believe that would change the "resting" arc very much... so that's probably a fairly good measurement. Please do post a picture when you get the new springs made, I'd love to see what they look like and might like to order a pair of rear springs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAG473 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Thank you. I'll follow up when I get the springs. ThLuv2wrench, What it the measurement from top to bottom at the point where the bolt is located to hold the leaf springs together. I located a company in Ohio that makes these springs. Need to give them the dimensions to determine how much of an arc is required. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson 35 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 On 16/10/2012 at 9:37 AM, Luv2Wrench said: Thanks to the efforts of fellow AACA members, I now have 90% of the major parts for the car. The parts swap in Hershey was a great success and I now have the seat, belly pan, chain guards and gas tank. I set the parts on the frame to do a quick mock-up. While the restoration hasn't even really started yet, seeing the major parts together makes it really look like a car and is great motivation. I managed to get the air compressor out of my truck and into the corner of the shop. My goal is to have it wired and install air lines by Thanksgiving. Once that is complete I can sand blast and epoxy coat the parts. Hopefully I'll be welding by that time and I can get the chassis completed and on wheels. I can then start on the body work and getting the drive line functioning again. Perhaps this spring I can work on the engine and start getting the car together. I found this post which shows the seat tub, which appears to show a tacking strip around seat backs, can anyone advise as if it was timber and what size, thanks for any help On 16/10/2012 at 9:37 AM, Luv2Wrench said: E 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson 35 Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 On 07/03/2013 at 7:24 AM, Luv2Wrench said: First step was to media blast, remove the tank straps and the pop-rivets that were added in some failed upholstery job. I then bumped out the major dents and got it roughly straight. I added a quick coat of primer so that I could see the low/high spots and worked those out. I took the wood frame out and blasted again. Looking through Luv2Wrench restoration, found his seat tub 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted February 6, 2018 Author Share Posted February 6, 2018 There was nothing left when I got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sampson 35 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 On 06/02/2018 at 2:21 PM, Luv2Wrench said: There was nothing left when I got it. Thanks for reply, you have many great restoration posts 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted July 5, 2021 Author Share Posted July 5, 2021 I forgot to put a note here that I switched projects because I had reached the point that I could do less and less on the Metz without more tools, experience and, as always, money. My brother helped me buy a 1952 MG TD and has paid for the parts to do the restoration. That thread is linked below. As for the Metz, the scheduled time to restart is January 2022... nearly 11 years after I first started the project. In hindsight, getting a project car like the Metz while having kids that are 10, 12 and 14 years of age wasn't the best idea. It was going to be a father/daughter project which was great but the daughter lost interest really fast as there was almost nothing we could really do together. The next project was also a father/daughter project and we did get a little further on that but then she had to go and graduate from college and head to Arizona for graduate school. I will say that I'm absolutely happy that I did venture way, way out of my comfort zone and take on a project that I didn't have the skills, time, tools and/or money to do. While it has take over a decade... I now have more of all of that and I'm itching to get back to the Metz. In addition to the lathe, I now have the complete Hendey family: metal shaper, metal planer and universal milling machine. Of course they're all 100+ years old and will need to be restored before I can learn to use them but that's where the fun is. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 I've been anxiously awaiting you getting back to the Metz. And you are right about the tools. There are a lot of advantages to doing an early car but buying the needed parts is not one of them. That said, you may be almost as well equipped as the Metz factory was when it was built...and you'll find that the parts you need to make are perfectly suited to the sort of machines that they were originally made with. A lot of design is governed by "how can we make it" rather than what will work best. Modern machines aren't always the best for this sort of challenge - or at least don't give you any advantage over the old ones. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted December 5, 2021 Author Share Posted December 5, 2021 (edited) With the MG project wrapping up I've been thinking a lot about what needs to be done on the Metz and have been searching around to see if I could find more parts. Fortunately some parts did come on the market and I bought them. Today the "car" was delivered!! It is basically an engine and most of the chassis/driveline. One of the most exciting and valuable things about this "car" is that it is assembled and it has a LOT of original nuts/bolts and other hardware. It provides a lot of details on how things were put together and is an incredible resource for making sure my restoration is as exact as possible. I paid the price I did to buy it and have it shipped basically for that reason. Over the years I've collected a lot of pictures and have done tons of research but having this car with original hardware in (mostly) assembled form is priceless. There's no way my restoration would have been as exact without having these details. I'm absolutely thrilled to have it!! The condition of these parts far exceed most of what I have and will be a huge help. I took the head off the engine and looked at the cylinders/pistons/valves and they are in fantastic condition. With the extra parts I come close to having enough to build two cars and have given it serious thought. I think, however, that I will instead just pick the best parts and complete my car. I know of a couple of Metz owners that would benefit from any extra parts and I think helping their projects out is the best path forward. I don't expect to start on the Metz again until some time in the spring but I'm VERY much looking forward to it. Edited December 5, 2021 by Luv2Wrench (see edit history) 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cudaman Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I saw that rolling chassis advertised, glad it went to someone who will make good use of it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDave Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 Don’t part it out,if you have two build one body and a set of fenders build two,I understand trying to help others and that’s commendable but once there gone there gone forever, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhprs Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Dave...there is a certain kind of logic in that statement...but...perhaps there are cars out there that need just ONE piece to put them back on the road as completed vehicles for posterity. I am such a case..needing friction contact plate and gear drive. The rest of the car is just sitting there..finished..waiting for that all important part. Shame really not to complete what is doable quickly than to start a (perhaps) several years long project which might..or might not...get done. Cheers...Ken 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustDave Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Ken,I’m sorry I know how frustrating it must be to have it that far along and not be able to finish and drive it,I’ve seen so many cars parted out early on that now would e some ones pride and joy,I didn’t mean to step on anyone’s toes,when I was young my dad and my antique car mentor always said if you don’t save them who will,I guess I’m still a little punchy,sorry if my comment was out of line, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vhprs Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 Dave...I do not think your comment was out of line. It is just another opinion and I honor your right to hold same. I just see, in this case...that a rebuild would be 90% (perhaps) new stuff or put together...while a case like mine would simply be replacement parts. It is just an opinion of where the greatest..and perhaps...the fastest and most beneficial use of those parts can be obtained. Again....just my opinion. Cheers...Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted December 7, 2021 Author Share Posted December 7, 2021 There are really good thoughts on both sides of this. When I saw the parts online my first thought was to speed up my restoration. When I got better pictures of the parts I certainly had second thoughts. I made some inquires to see if I could obtain what was needed to do two cars roughly at the same time. I even went so far as to do a spreadsheet to figure the costs. The end results was sure, I could do two but it would require extensive sheet metal fabrication and a lot more time. Time that I could spend saving the other hopeless basket cases that tend to follow me home. I've decided that I could take on the responsibility of shepherding the extra parts to homes where they can live on in another car. That decision got a bit easier when I finally realized that what I really bought is two halves for two different cars along with a friction drive wheel for a third car. The engine is very late 1913 and the front chassis pieces agree with that date. The friction drive wheel appears to be even later than that and was never mounted to the engine. The rear chassis has the older brakes and I would guess it is before 1912. I can assure everyone this... the extra parts will either go directly to someone now or the will be restored and advertised for someone to find in the future. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) I endorse that idea. Assembled into a car it will always be a "bitsa". Not that that is bad (I think my own car fits that description) but the really important issue is "will they be saved." Obviously they will and what you don't need will go to someone that does... Edited December 8, 2021 by JV Puleo (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hursst Posted December 12, 2021 Share Posted December 12, 2021 Looking forward to seeing progress on the Metz, Jeff. Good luck, looks like a fun project. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luv2Wrench Posted January 8, 2023 Author Share Posted January 8, 2023 Getting ready to start the Metz restoration again! I paused the restoration because I didn't have the tools (machine tools), money or experience I needed to finish the restoration properly. As mentioned above, my brother funded the restoration of the 1952 MG TD which allowed me to get a ton of experience. During the 5 year restoration I spent a ton of time looking for machine tools and I was able to acquire everything I needed. Of course all of them need restorations! Those restorations have already begun with the first project being a Van Norman No 12 horizontal/vertical milling machine. I will also be rearranging the shop so that the back third is a proper machine shop. I will be extending the shop some to help out with this but that will come later as the weather isn't that great right now. So here's the list of the work that needs to be done in the order I'll tackle them. Racine power hacksaw Hendey Horizontal mill Hendey Shaper Hendey Planer Add DRO to Hendey lathe Add DRO to Van Norman ------------------------- Monarch Junior lathe Monarch 10EC turret lathe There's a lot of them and it will be a lot of work but I do believe all the machines are "functional". As such the restoration will mainly consist of figuring out how to apply power to them. There's a good chance the Hendey shaper and planer will be powered off a mini line shaft. It just so happens that their drive pulleys are on opposing sides. The shaper's is on the left and the planer's is on the right. I'm planning on positioning the planer along the rear wall and the shaper to the right of it. That will have both the drive pulleys together and I can have a motor on the floor and a small line shaft above. The planer came with some line shaft stuff and I think it can be adapted. I plan to make a hole in the wall for the table so I can save some space in the machine shop. For the rest of the machines I'm using 3-phase motors with a VFD. The VFD allows me to reduce the speed of the motor such that I can directly drive the machine. In addition I can vary the speed of the machines as needed for various materials and operations. The two Monarchs (below the dashed line) are not necessary for the Metz restoration to begin so I'm not sure if I'll be restoring them now. The Junior has a taper adapter attachment which might prove useful. The 10EC is ridiculously accurate which would be useful for the wheel bearing work. Technically the shaper and planer are not strictly needed but since they'll go in the very back of the machine shop area they'll need to be restored first. Since this is a car forum and not a machine tool forum I'll limit the posts about the machine shop restoration to one post for each machine complete. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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