GarageStudios Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Question for the Guru's...After I have blasted my car to bare metal, reviewed all her flaws, repaired any body parts... and prepped her for Primer..I want to then prime the car, but not paint her right away...what kind of primer do I use? Epoxy, Self Etch etc...do I need to then seal the primer if not painting right away?if I do need to seal the primer, what type is best for painting on?Thanks everyone! Trevor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 (edited) It is not a good idea to sandblast a whole car. It can warp the metal from the pressure. The bare metal will rust very easily if not protected.Usually we sandblast only rusty areas then wipe down with metal prep. Metal prep leaves a residue that will keep off rust for a time if the car is indoors and dry. It also neutalizes any remaining rust.Then repair rust and dents, fill, and prime in the usual way. Primer by itself will not keep off rust, the car needs to be painted within a reasonable time. If you mean to leave it in primer it is best to spray on a coat of clear to seal it.Even if no rust is evident, primer can soak up moisture which will come out and ruin your paint job. Often seen as millions of tiny blisters.Normally this is not a problem if you are working in a heated garage in winter, or warm weather in summer, and finish the repair work and paint within a reasonable time. But if a car is stored in an unheated garage for weeks or months you have to be careful and put it in a heated garage for several days to dry out, before finishing the paint job.It is hard to answer your questions without more information. Are you new to body and paint work? What kind of garage do you have to work in? How much work do you plan to do yourself, will you have a professional paint the car or do any other work? What kind of car, and how good of a job do you want? Edited April 21, 2011 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stealthbob Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Paint and Body is such a specialized part of our hobby...I have found this place to be a tremendous resource, very knowledgeable people....most of which are professionals.Body and Paint • How to Paint Your Own Car, Auto Body Discussion Forum & Videos • AutoBody101.comRead through, your answer is there. You will find that they consistently agree that bare metal needs epoxy sealer prior to any primer.Some more great info:All Auto Body and Paint Articles | How to Paint Your Own Car, Auto Body Discussion Forum and Videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Harmatuk Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 From my research from the internet... and there is a lot of discussion on the same topic.......My 30 Chrysler is/was sanded to the bare metal.The whole car.I wiped it down with a small rag, wet with Ospho.It has sat in an unheated, uncooled garage in North Carolina, for about 8 months now, with NO sign of rust appearing.The many sites/forums on the subject say ... do not use metal etching epoxy primer over Ospho. Even sanded Ospho.Ospho IS the etching agent. So you don't need metal etching primer. It will react with Ospho.DA or sand the Ospho again, when dry or after a day or so, with 80 grit, wipe it clean with paint manufacturers recommended cleaner and degreaser and spray with 2 part epoxy.2 part epoxy is BAD, B A D, stuff so have a professional spray it for you or buy an air supplied respirator.The 2 part epoxy is supposed to prevent rust from reappearing because when it dries it is as hard as wood pecker lips. You'll have to sand again with 80 grit before the high build primer,.... then block sand.This is the cumulative understanding I have gotten by many, many nights of research and the expert advice from a really great guy named Marty Lum.If I am wrong please correct me.I, and no body else wants to go through a repaint.Like I said..... there is a lot of discussion on the subject.You just have to sort it out and ask the experts. Even they have different methods. I'm NOT an expert but there is no excuse for not asking questions and not being informed.Then the discussion on which is the best epoxy primer............Bill Harmatuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I use the self etch primer as a quick sealer, do any body work in an area i need , then cover with the y2k high build primer,, when i get it all in primer i do my final block sanding and then the colour coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I recommend epoxy primer. It will permanently seal the metal, then you can scuff it and do your bodywork on top of it. It will not react with just about anything you paint over it, it's impervious to moisture, and is amazingly durable. It doesn't sand easily, so you don't want to use it as the final coat under your paint, but as the foundation for sealing the metal it can't be beat.I'll also second the opinion that it is somewhat dangerous stuff, so make sure you have the right equipment. It's easy to work with, though, so just follow the instructions and you should have a durable foundation for your remaining body and paint work.Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest South_paw Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Epoxy primer is the way to go... but don't just take my word for it. PPG has a techincal bulletin on this very subject . Click on link to open the PDF. https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProductCatalog/ServeFile.ashx?FileID=bc5c3cd4-9878-478e-8cef-b4cd24a2ccaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Etch the metal if necessary but no need to etch if the surface has been sandblasted. Seal as soon as possible with PPG DP-90 Sealer, primer using K-36, do your sanding and filling, another coat of K-36 then block and block some more. Finally reseal with DP-90 within 72 hours of final paint or you will need to scuff the sealer with a Scotchbrite pad before paint. Follow the product directions to the letter especially mixing ratios and application and recoat times. For durability the best paint job is the thinnest paint job. DP-90 is just as moisture proof as paint so once the metal is in sealer you can take your time. If using Base/Clear apply 3 coats of Base followed by 4 coats of Clear. Figure about $1500 in materials to paint a full size car if you want a quality job. Good luck! Should take you about 4 days minimum to wet sand and buff a full size car. Stick with one product line and resist the temptation to take shortcuts to save a few $. Our PPG rep comes to the shop every Thursday to demonstrate new products and answer any questions we might have. Most PPG reps had their own shops at some point and are very knowledgable. They can be invaluable in helping you to understand these new products and procedures and will be happy to help you especially since most work on commission. Wear a good respirator. These products can kill you if you give them a chance. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billybird Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 PPG DP90 epoxy primer will rustproof the car as long as you don't sand it. Then you can take your time and do whatever else you want untill you are ready to start block sanding the body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dave Boyer Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 DP90, is great stuff. It's getting hard to find here in Ontario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageStudios Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) wow, GREAT feedback, I started my journal so I can read up on items while in the garage..Thanks Everyone for the advice!I also found some advice about Cloverdales primer? and I found this tech sheet on dp90PPG-DPLF-epoxy-primer-product-sheet.pdf Edited April 22, 2011 by CDN224 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 I picked up my paint base coat clear coat from the barrieauto market last fall, whos main shop is around the new race track west side of the 400,, base coat i got for $200 (sikkens)gal and reducer, and the clear was $120gal. Ask them,, and make sure you have a good resperator,, these products contain Isocyanates.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Harmatuk Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 (edited) Absolutely great stuff here.This is why I love this forum.You guys are great. Thanks for chiming in!!I'm learning stuff again. Now for a good and reasonably priced spray gun to apply the epoxy and I'm set.Bill H Edited April 22, 2011 by Bill Harmatuk (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 PPG and I suppose most manufacturers have 2 qualities of product. With PPG the less expensive stuff, which you likely get if you have your car repaired at a body shop, is "Shop Line" and is 1/2 or less the cost of the "good" stuff. Make your choice and take your chances. We use all PPG products in large part because of the expertise and availability of our paint rep. Not much difference between one paint system and another. Some folks are enamored of the "imported" systems but we see little difference. Anyway, bottom line is, 90% of a quality paint job is in the prep and body work. Buy yourself a container of "Dry Guide Coat" and use it whenever block sanding. "Dry Guide Coat" is a powder like carbon ( I guess)substance applied with a powder puff like applicator. It reveals EVERY sanding scratch and low area as you block sand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted April 22, 2011 Share Posted April 22, 2011 i have not tryed the dry guide coats as yet, i just normaly grab a rattle can of a contrasting colour and spray the panel about 24 inches away which leaves a splatter affect that i sand to show my low spots when i block it out.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageStudios Posted April 22, 2011 Author Share Posted April 22, 2011 sooo... as I understand it, the basics are...1) I can strip her down to bare nessesities.. 2) clean her up, make sure all repairs are done..3) wipe her down with a grease remover or a solvent to "prep the metal"4) prime her with a self etching or epoxy5) seal the primer with clear coat (if not painting right away)Can I then paint her after a while with the clear coat on?sorry for all the questions, I'm learning as I go - and I picked up a paint guide book from Canadian Tire (Hayes Martin) or something to help me with the basics.Trevor.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest billybird Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 This is just one more thought. I never do body filler over bare metal; always over DP90 epoxy primer, then prime again. Have you ever noticed how much heat boby filler generates? I believe to put body filler over bare metal, this heat causes condensation possibly compromising the repair. This is only a personal theory of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bofusmosby Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I'm finding this topic very interesting, as well as informative. I never gave it much thought about the primer/painting work. I see that I will have a lot to learn before I ever take on a task such as this. Please, keep the info coming! My brain is like a sponge, wanting to soak in as much of this as I can. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kingoftheroad Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 This is just one more thought. I never do body filler over bare metal; always over DP90 epoxy primer, then prime again. Have you ever noticed how much heat boby filler generates? I believe to put body filler over bare metal, this heat causes condensation possibly compromising the repair. This is only a personal theory of mine.Using body filler on clean metal is the recommended application, I've never had any problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kingoftheroad Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 I've never used DP90 and I've never clear coated or epoxy primed my work. This stuff work good ?? I just make my repair, lay down some high build primer, and it stays fine till I'm ready to paint. Then I prep & shoot it. I've never had any problems with peeling, flaking, chipping, spider webbing or anything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 We always do any filling over DP-90 and if your filler is thick enough that heat is a concern it's TOO thick. Never heard of sealing with clear. That's what DP-90 is, a sealer/primer. Also you should do more than just "wipe down" with grease remover. We practically flood the metal with grease remover and wipe down at least twice, again if any signifivant time lapses between cleaning and applying sealer. If you screw up there is nothing wrong with sanding the final clear coat and reapplying base over clear followed of course by more clear. Some people claim they can get a show quality finish with Rustoleum rattle cans so opinions vary. I'm just telling you how WE do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Albert Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 Years ago a friend was looking for wheel's somthing to get from a to b and back,, so I had a K-car had a few dings and scrapes, fixed them up but not Wanting to spend a few hundred in Paint,, and all we wanted was it to look good at 10 feet,, Min distance the cops are. So i went to Canadian Tire and picked up a quart of trimclad rust paint, and a quart of laqure thinner, mixed it up so it would go through the gun, and sprayed it in a friends spray booth on a friday, and it sat in there till monday,, His regular painter could'nt beleve it was not auto paint, not a run or mark in the paint and really nice shine, the paint lasted 3 year, and so did the car,, but for $20 in materials It did the Job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A by the sea Posted April 26, 2011 Share Posted April 26, 2011 Some facts.Sandblasting only warps panels if you have too high a pressure or too much media. The warpage comes from the surface of the metal being expanded from the hits.Epoxy paint and bondo stick to properly 'etched' metal. Etching is done mechanically or with chemicals. Read the technical sheets for the proper prep, do not believe what someone tells you. Etching primer is a common fail point. Etching primer is intended for use on new metal to give paint adhesion, not to control rust. When improperly applied it makes for a paint fail point.Prepping the metal with Ospho, PickleX 20 or similar product will allow you to keep the metal bare for a while while you do metal work.Epoxy should be top coated during its recoat window. The owner of SPI paints says the best adhesion would be his primer on metal with bondo applied during the recoat window. The epoxy is not as bad as the 2K primers and top coats for your body. Epoxy has the solvents in it. The 2k primers and top coats have Isocyanates which are absorbed through the skin. With a proper mask and paint suit you can significantly reduce your exposure. The solvents tend to kill your organs and hurt your nervous system. The isocyanates are an allergic reaction that will start with chest pains and will tend to get worse with repeated exposure till it kills you with an asthma attack. A properly fitted charcoal mask with reasonable ventilation will significantly reduce your exposure. A pressure fed breathing system is expensive to buy, but they have very high resale values so you can effectively "rent one" and not be out too much money. The above is based on my conversations with the owner of SPI and talking to university researchers.Modern paints tend to attach to the previous layer. Epoxy has a porous surface while curing. The next layer gets its molecules in the microscopic holes and the holes close around the molecules causing a tight grip. Bondo attached to a properly roughed up surface. It will also stick into the porous surface of the epoxy and the heat will cure the epoxy faster. With bondo type products the more scratch per inch the more area there will be for a strong attachment. The 40 grit paper leaves to many flat spots between the deep scratch and the bondo type products I have worked with do not recommend such a low numbered grit.That is some of the basics. Get all the tech sheets and read them for any perspective products you are thinking of using. Poke around the metal working and autobody forums to get a better idea of different products and their proper usage. Be aware that just because the guy has 40 years experience does not mean he knows how to use a product properly. Double check what you learn. Keep in mind a paint shop only cares about a nice paint job out the door. A few years down the road and it is unlikely the product will come back. You need to try and get the prep right so the paint is still there 20 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dick Whittington Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Just remember, you have one chance when you are painting a car, or you will have to do it over again!We have started using soda blasting. Cleans the metal quickly and does not heat or warp. Clean up the residue, apply DP? (# depends on the color, we always try to use a color close to the top coat. Apply body filler during the recoat period. Use K-36 as the primer/surfacer. Any places you go to bare metal, we spot back with the DP. Once we are ready to paint, we seal with the DP reduced 100%. This is the system our local PPG rep recommended. Have been using this procedure since the late '80's with no problems.No matter whose products you use, stay with one manufacturer. That way, if you have a problem, you have someone to go to for help. If you mix brands you are as likely to get help from ghost busters as you are from one of the manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageStudios Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 (edited) Appreciate all the responses.....With all the advice given... I am very grateful..Here is my plan.... * store the car in a dry, clean garage (yep a clean garage )* strip her down to bare metal so I can review all her glory in detail, review any body work needed, make the repairs as needed...* gut the inside, remove all windows and review all repairs needed..This would leave the car in bare shape for apx 3 months or so (maybe longer)..I was thinking of this epoxy primer when done with all inspections... (all proper equipment will be used)EW Epoxy Primer Gray Gallon 1:1Any thoughts on Eastwood Stuff? I attached its instructions..*** And... whats the difference between Urethane Primer?GREAT advice from all, and I thank you in advance...Trevor50242 INST.pdf Edited May 14, 2011 by CDN224 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageStudios Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 DP90, is great stuff. It's getting hard to find here in Ontario.Your right... I may have to see if I can get online... and still research other products.. but the "internet" seems to point out that this DP90 stuff is best, with epoxy primer in the second running...Man I thought troubleshooting Microsoft Windows Operating Systems was a chore.. car prep n paint is so confusing if your a newbie like me :eek: but at least I have you guys n gals for help !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageStudios Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 Paint your car for 750$? I found this on Eastwoods website under Resources... Automotive Troubleshooting - Do It Yourself Auto Repair Help & Information Some good tips there. The price is not the main attraction, I found some great tips here as well pdf here... http://www.eastwood.com/images/pdf/CCRP-090400-PAINT.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I've used the Eastwood epoxy, and it seems to work fine; sands easily, dries rather quickly, not too expensive. The grey is a good base for darker colors.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A by the sea Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 If you want quality paint at a good price get the SPI paint (southern polyurethanes). They make primers and filling primers and a limited amount of top coats. The owner frequently answers the phone.The spi stuff is universally liked throughout the hobby. You are not paying for heavy advertising and other costs that PPG and others have for marketing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarageStudios Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 Just got a copy of "Smokin Guns III" Ed Hubbs Bare Metal to Clear Coat video... cool tips on that one too... Car is coming home shortly from a 216 removal to 275 Engine install, and 12 v upgrade...I have all my "tech Gear" ready to make some home videos on the entire restoration...I will be stripping down to bare metal, repairing, and painting.. should make for an interesting video series Thanks Everyone! I'll post the videos on my Youtube account and post link in Forum.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bofusmosby Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I would suggest that you hang on to the original engine.....just in case.Yes, I would really enjoy seeing those videos.Here is a link to another being done. Randall Comm Photography Division : Cars : 1937 Pontiac 6 Restoration | SmugMug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Towbar2 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 (edited) Thanks for the very informative thread.I am currently taking my 1938 [Canadian] Dodge Brothers 2-Door Touring apart for restoration. Edited June 17, 2011 by Towbar2 words missing (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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