Do Not Judge?

[Paul Dobbin]

I'm a DPC owner and was rejected for two other vehicles in HOPF. My intention in getting certified was to be able to participate in AACA Shows and to be a participant rather than as another spectator. I thought with the certification I could show my cars without being judged. Getting another medallion for repeat appearances is a waste of AACA money. Placing me in the proper class makes more sense to me.

Restorer 32 said; I think many folks take a cursory look at most of the cars at a show but generally zero in on the couple classes they are really interested in and would find it very informative to have an HPOF car readily available to compare. It might be educational for the judges as well. I would assume that once an HPOF car is certified the first time the evaluation at each subsequent meet is similar to a "Repeat Preservation"? If repeat preservations can be judged on the field I fail to see why it would be a problem doing the same with HPOF cars.

I agree with Restorer 32, why judge the certified? If I was a judge I'd be happy to see a car in my class I didn't have to judge. As a participant I'd rather be with the other cars like mine that I could learn from. If I paid to support the show and not be judged, it seems that makes the show more profitable to the host region. I don't see any downside , only pluses.

[West Peterson]

I've decided to take my car out of HPOF and will enter it in the regular Class 19e at Hershey... do not judge.

[Shop Rat]

My only issue with Do Not Judge vehicles would be if there was a limited amount of spaces for vehicles and folks who wanted their vehicle class judged, or certified for HPOF or DPC, and they were denied access to the show because there wasn't room for their vehicle because spaces were taken up with vehicles that were not going to be judged.

That would not seem fair to me.

[MCHinson]

West, I think you are going to find that you can't do that under the rules in the judging guidelines Check out page 51:

"A vehicle that has been HPOF Certified cannot then enter the Junior Class or DPC

class. The only exceptions would apply:

1. If the owner decides to restore the vehicle, it can then be entered in the

Junior class when AACA is so notified and the HPOF badge removed from

the vehicle and returned to AACA. or

2. If after 10 years from the original HPOF certification date, the owner

elects to implement the Recycle option and returns the HPOF badge

that had been on the vehicle."

[West Peterson]

Susan

No comment on your issue with do not judge, except that I have just as much right to show my car as anyone else.

Matt

Hmmm. Does that make me a scofflaw in the ranks? :cool: Perhaps they'll turn the other way since it's not being judged.??? Or, maybe they'll rip my bars off my shoulder and dismiss me in disgrace.

[Shop Rat]

Susan

No comment on your issue with do not judge, except that I have just as much right to show my car as anyone else. .....

West,

Put yourself in the place of someone that wants to have their vehicle go through the system as a judged or evaluated entry. There are 500 spaces available. There are 50 vehicles with Do Not Judge forms on them. One or two of those are sitting in the class you wanted to enter your vehcile in. Would you think it was fair to reject your vehicle because there wasn't room for it while a vehicle(s) sits in a space that judges just walk by?

Example in another realm of AACA.

As a Certified Team Captain I may not be chosen to be a Team Captain because there are other judges that have signed up for the C.T.C. program. They have to get five good evaluations from judging teams to get that certification to get their C.T.C. pin. Should it be my right to demand to be a Team Captain at every meet I might want to be one and deny them that chance? No, I have to step back and let others go through the system.

That is what I am talking about. Being fair to those that want to go through the system and not just display a vehicle. If room for all is not an issue then no problem.

[Restorer32]

So you simply put "Do Not Judge" entries on "standby" until registration closes. If there was room in the HPOF or DPC wouldn't there obviously be room in the judged class?

[MCHinson]

I don't know West, it could go either way...

Maybe you should ask Steve for advice on the issue. He is always super gentle when answering your questions, right?

[Ron Green]

West,

Put yourself in the place of someone that wants to have their vehicle go through the system as a judged or evaluated entry. There are 500 spaces available. There are 50 vehicles with Do Not Judge forms on them. One or two of those are sitting in the class you wanted to enter your vehcile in. Would you think it was fair to reject your vehicle because there wasn't room for it while a vehicle(s) sits in a space that judges just walk by?

Example in another realm of AACA.

As a Certified Team Captain I may not be chosen to be a Team Captain because there are other judges that have signed up for the C.T.C. program. They have to get five good evaluations from judging teams to get that certification to get their C.T.C. pin. Should it be my right to demand to be a Team Captain at every meet I might want to be one and deny them that chance? No, I have to step back and let others go through the system.

That is what I am talking about. Being fair to those that want to go through the system and not just display a vehicle. If room for all is not an issue then no problem.

Having attended many AACA national meets the only events that I ever recall that were “limited” to attendees were a few of the tours, never a meet? I agree with West that every dues paying member has a right to show their vehicle regardless of how it may be registered.

[Shop Rat]

So you simply put "Do Not Judge" entries on "standby" until registration closes. If there was room in the HPOF or DPC wouldn't there obviously be room in the judged class?

That could well be an option, to give those wanting to have their vehicle(s) judged/evaluated get first dibs on spaces. If any are left then by all means have the DNJ vehicles come to the Meet.

[Shop Rat]

Having attended many AACA national meets the only events that I ever recall that were “limited” to attendees were a few of the tours, never a meet? I agree with West that every dues paying member has a right to show their vehicle regardless of how it may be registered.

As I stated above, if there are no space issues then there is no issue about vehicles being admitted as Do Not Judge.

[Guest Stonefish]

I've read this whole thread and thought I'd share some of my opinions…I'll share'em, read'em if you want.

First off…I find it strange that someone would say that DNJ cars, that are in their respective class, would be confusing. I might need some clarification on that. If you mean…why is this real nice shiney car next to this guys "POS" (as someone stated) I can get that, but at least they are the same car. For me, I think DPC & HPOF can be even more confusing to the spectator. I've shown one of my cars in DPC one year…I saw the confusion on people's face, I was asked; "what class is this"? The poorly stenciled signs were misread and were people thinking it was OPC and joke; Other People's Cars? "What is DPC?" a couple, wearing their silk AACA region jackets plastered with pins, asked. I watched as spectators walked from the well organized "judged" row, cross the lane and wham… they take a step off the beaten trail and you have a 30's car next to an 80's car….they didn't get it. Total confusion….point blank!

At the same meet, I was on a bio break when my car was being "evaluated"…my top was down…I was like, "oh man". I tracked the evaluation team down and asked them if they needed to see the top up…."Nope, you're good" was their reply. Kinda told me how well the DPC evaluation goes…it was certified. I mean really, how much "certification" do you need for a DPC classed car? Tires? Check! Steering wheel? Check! Confirm they are on the show field and move on!?! HPOF a little different. I have other issues with that class (class is way too fuzzy with repainting and % restored etc…) "it is an original paint car", "wow, really…that is original paint?!", "well, no…it is the original color though"….wouldn't be in an HPOF class in my book…anyway...

In all, after being shoved off the side of the show field in an clustered up class... I knew I wouldn't be back in DPC. Fast forward 3 years, the car was worked on, DPC award thingy was returned…entered the same car in the class it should be in as a DNJ (because it still isn't a great car and I don't need people to waste their time judging it). This time…it found it's way into a Hemmings report!

For those that think people just enter DNJ to get a parking space…..that may be the case for some, but they are real easy to pick out of a crowd aren't they?? Those folks usually aren't hanging out with their car all day…the car is closed up and the people are gone. If it is an issue, deal with them.

I'll have two DNJ's on the Hershey field this year (out of 5 cars entered) and I think I'm going to tell the judges not to bother with another one (would be going for Senior) because I know it isn't a Senior car so why waste their time, their knees or what ever…would this be a crime?? Would a previous First Junior car that I no longer want judged (entered as a DNJ) get bumped to some waiting list???

And to those that think a DNJ car does not have the right to be on the show field because it may take up space for a car to be judged….really?? I'm an AACA member, my registration money is just as good as anyone else's. If it is so important for somebody to have their car on the show field to be judged and there is a registration cap…I guess they better take the time to register early!!? You want to talk about fair…but you want to make a pecking list? As long as OUR club offers DNJ…I don't think you have much to say.

The way folks talk about the burden of judging and it is "more work for the judging teams" to have a DNJ in a class…you might have to explain that one too. I would think a few DNJ's mixed into your class would be a pleasant surprise. I'm sure when you are standing in the huddle, first thing in the morning, and see that DNJ in your class…you're like, whew…check that one off the list!!

The idea/concept of HPOF cars in with the judged cars would be nice…the historical value certainly is there. So why make things so complex with the HPOF class. If it gets certified once…that's it. No repeat HPOF and more little trinkets to stick to a board. You have one…put it on the car and be proud of it. If the owner wants to lower the car and put a booming sound system in it or add flames….well those cars can be addressed…they'll stick out like sore thumbs (ask anyone that has griped about them in the car corral!?!?) If they worked to get an HPOF and are proud of their car…you wouldn't think they would being doing crazy mods or something. Then again…you never know…

Edited August 31, 2011 by Stonefish (see edit history)

[ted sweet]

all that will happen if dnj cars arent allowed is that amazingly the owner will want the car judged.

[msmazcol]

Boy I sure opened a can of worms on this thread. Sorry. Just wanted to save the club the huge preservation board, not shine the truck up so much, and just enjoy the cars!

[novaman]

"So why make things so complex with the HPOF class. If it gets certified once…that's it. No repeat HPOF and more little trinkets to stick to a board. You have one…put it on the car and be proud of it. If the owner wants to lower the car and put a booming sound system in it or add flames….well those cars can be addressed…they'll stick out like sore thumbs (ask anyone that has griped about them in the car corral!?!?) If they worked to get an HPOF and are proud of their car…you wouldn't think they would being doing crazy mods or something. Then again…you never know…"

1. If my car had it's senior, I'd get a preservation chip, so what's wrong with the HPOF car getting a re-certification chip?

2. True, a booming sound system and flames would stick out, but what about that new seat covers, a repainted trunk, new headliner, or an engine swap (not talking anything radical here) you proposal would allow restoration of an HPOF car. Going against what the class is about. That's why there is a re-certification. It is nothing more than then judges do to the point judged cars. Point judged cars need to meet a certain point level to get their Repeat Senior awards. HPOF cars need to meet a certain percentage of originality to get their repeat certification.

3. There isn't anything complex about HPOF.

A. If it meets the required level of originality, it gets certified.

B. It then gets checked over each time it is on the showfield for recertification.

C. It's a class and is grouped as such on the show field like all other classes.

D. If you haven't noticed the cars in HPOF are arranged in order by year.

E. If you car is eligible for HPOF, and you don't care about the certification, you're welcome to enter it as DNJ in the appropriate class.

When they came up with the Driver's class, which is where there is personally the "complaints" about HPOF would be the same to the 10th power since they consist of "nicer" partly restored and/or older restoration (when I get my wagon done, a fresh restoration), they didn't do away with the DNJ. For years if you had a car that you weren't interested in having it judged you could still bring it and show it as a DNJ. After the creation of the Driver's class, that would be the natural catch all for all DNJ. But they understood that there are some that really didn't care about the judging program at all and just wanted to bring the car. That is why the DNJ was not eliminated when they came up with the Driver's class. It still gave a way to show and not be part of the judging program.

As for the DPC class, no fuzzy dice, not chromed out, no flames, no mag wheels, no rubber band tires, not chopped and shaved. It probably is the easiest class out there to "judge". I haven't done it, therefore I said probably.

Edited September 8, 2011 by novaman (see edit history)

[novaman]

If you really don't want the board and chips, I'm sure if you notify the vp of class judging and/or Steve M you don't want them, they'll keep them.

[Jim Bollman]

As for the DPC class, no fuzzy dice, not chromed out, no flames, no mag wheels, no rubber band tires, not chopped and shaved. It probably is the easiest class out there to "judge". I haven't done it, therefore I said probably.

Actually Dave it isn't as strict as you make it out to be. Mag wheels are ok if they are of the right vintage and I doubt they would take off for fuzzy dice. Even pretty generous engine swaps are ok as long as they generally look right, most any flathead V8 Ford engine in a Ford that had a V8 flathead. Most any small block Chevy engine in a Chevy that had a small block as long as it has a carb if the original did. I was very surprised how much could be changed. It basically has to look prety stock to the general audience, not someone that knows the make.

[Shop Rat]

Here are the rules for the DPC.

2. DRIVER PARTICIPATION CLASS (DPC)

The AACA Board of Directors in 2000

established DPC to promote the showing

and driving of antique vehicles which are

not intended by their owners to be show

vehicles and are described as "Drivers."

This class is for vehicles 25 years of age

or older that have not obtained a national

first prize. (A vehicle with national awards

is eligible for DPC only if the awards - other

than 2nd or 3rd Junior - are turned into

AACA Headquarters.) This is a non-competitive

class and will not be point judged,

but vehicles will be certified upon passing

a visual inspection. The shaded areas

on the DPC evaluation form must be

completed by the vehicle owner before

the vehicle can be certified. Certification

will be based on vehicle components that

have the same appearance as when the

vehicle was manufactured and the overall

condition of the vehicle in general appears

acceptable. The exterior/ interior/engine/

chassis components must appear period

correct per the original manufacturer. The

following are exceptions that will not disqualify

the vehicle: seat belts, seat coverings,

turn signals, stop lights, sealed

beam/halogen headlights, radial tires, alloy

wheels of the same era and/or same

vehicle manufacturer, radio upgrades,

electrical upgrades, brake upgrades (bolt

on), steering upgrades (bolt on), air conditioning,

overdrive system and altered

exhausts. A DPC badge will be issued

to each vehicle upon certification and a

participation award will be given at certification

and at each subsequent meet for

attendance. After five participation awards

are received, the accompanying participation

cards should be completed and mailed

to AACA Headquarters. A mounting board

will be mailed from AACA Headquarters

after confirmation of the five participation

awards. No vehicle will be re-certified if it

is not displaying the DPC badge. A DPC

certified vehicle that is significantly modified

will lose its’ DPC certification. DPC certification

remains with the vehicle even if there

is a change of ownership. (see Attachment

6 - DPC Evaluation Form - page 49).

[novaman]

Jim, That's what I was basically trying to say. Don't forget what I do for a living. 500 CID & up are common place with NOS, blowers, twin turbos, and Jet fighter engines. Most door cars in our shop are running 1/8mi under 4 seconds - that's 0 to 190 MPH in 660 feet! Some of the owners chrome everything. As for the mags, I was thinking of what you see today with the rubberbands for a tire on them. And lot of the guys I know around here are rodders and they want to customize everything on the car.

Edited September 10, 2011 by novaman (see edit history)

[Jim Bollman]

Sorry I misunderstood Dave. I thought you were probably up on DPC since you have a car in that class.

[novaman]

My 4dr is in HPOF. My wagon when I get it done, if I take it to a national meet, I'll put it in DPC.

[Jim Bollman]

My 4dr is in HPOF. My wagon when I get it done, if I take it to a national meet, I'll put it in DPC.

Boy I can't get it right at all.

[Steve Moskowitz]

AACA certainly appreciates people who attend shows and for whatever their personal reasons are, they ask to be display only. That is their right and we respect that decision. We have a variety of classes both judged and evaluated plus DNJ to keep people active. Very generous of our members to show DNJ since they pay the same fee as every one else.

Ron, you make some good points. The HPOF evaluation committee has put hundreds of hours into studying what is the best thing to do for the majority of our members. We have had several surveys and hope to improve this class for next year. Stay tuned for the announcement. I am sure we will then sink our teeth into DPC.

Check out the new signs for HPOF at the fall meet...they are 4' X 4', double sided and will start at each end of the row. Hopefully they will be a big improvement to explaining the class.

[trimacar]

Well, it's interesting reading, for sure. AACA is a great club, but I feel the shows are too structured to be as much fun as they should be. That's just my humble opinion, sure I'll catch hehockeysticks for it....

Now, this is from a fellow who never has cars judged. Just no interest in it. Having a trophy doesn't mean a thing to me. I own a Packard which was a senior CCCA car, but that's pretty meaningless after 35 years (it won in the mid-1970's).

I do know, from personal observation, that the owner of a fully restored zillion-dollar restoration car doesn't like when an original car is placed next to him, because the original car gets more attention than his piece of shiny.

Personally, I think an HPOF car should be certified once, then after that placed on the regular show field amongst its brethren.

I brought my unrestored Cord to the ACD meet, didn't even know there was a "preservation" class, didn't check that box, so they parked me with the restored cars. What fun! Then people got to see before and after, side by side. I like looking at the beautiful restored cars, too, but I can guarantee that there were people passing by the shiny ones to get a look at mine, paint peeling and all.

[Bhigdog]

The nice thing about the system being structured is that it gives everyone a shot to fit in where ever they please. That helps everyone have fun. I enjoy having my cars judged simply because I do all my own work, except sewing, so when one of my cars receive an award it's validation of the quality of my work. I'm sure others feel the same, and personally I have no problem being on the field next to an "original" car. I do agree that the physical trophy doesn't mean too much and I routinely decline them. I do however proudly display the grill badge since it's a reflection of my work............bob

[Shop Rat]

As several have said the one time certification for a HPOF or DPC just will not work. In all likelihood we would end up with what would amount to street rods/modifieds/hot rods on the showfield because "it was certified". And then the owner(s) changed the vehicle and kept bringing it. When that happens we will lose lots of the folks that have no desire to put their vehicles in with those kinds of vehicles.

National AACA Meets are not local shows, fun meets, etc. The National AACA Meets are for those that wish to have their vehicles judged/evaluated under the rules of the AACA by judges and Team Captains trained by the AACA.

Folks that want a more relaxed show should do that. There are tons of local shows, some even put on by AACA Regions and Chapters, available to go to and it won't cost the owner near as much as an AACA National Meet.

The AACA is what it is. It serves a segment of the antique vehicle community that supports the preservation of vehicles twenty-five years old and older as they could have come from the factory.

To anyone that has not shown or judged at an AACA National Meet, go to a judging school, take some CJE classes and serve on an apprentice team and learn what we do. And why we judge like we do.

[West Peterson]

As several have said the one time certification for a HPOF or DPC just will not work. In all likelihood we would end up with what would amount to street rods/modifieds/hot rods on the showfield because "it was certified". And then the owner(s) changed the vehicle and kept bringing it. When that happens we will lose lots of the folks that have no desire to put their vehicles in with those kinds of vehicles.

I really feel that it would work, and that it would be highly unlikely we'd have street rods on the field. I await to see how the new HPOF rules play out, but I'm with Dave, I want to park my car next to the restored cars after it's been certified.

[trimacar]

It's simple to keep the hot rods out, if someone goes to the trouble to HPOF certify and then rod the car. Turn the car away from the gate, or kick it off the show field. We all know that a 1933 Whatisitmobile isn't going to get certified with a small block in it. Reserve the right to kick it out of the show.

I have great respect for judging. I used to judge in CCCA, which has a somewhat different focus than AACA, in that mechanical condition and operation of vehicle components are judged, as well as physical condition. AACA focuses more on fit and finish, much less on mechanical condition.

My comments were not to belittle judging in any way. I just feel that it's a much more balanced experience to see restored and unrestored cars side by side. If the membership of the club feels that's not appropriate at National meets, so be it. But, the best way to see how a car came from the factory is surely not the over restored beast that it now takes to win a Senior. Factories had excellent craftsmen, but they were turning out a product, not a show piece. Overspray, imperfect panel fit, unpainted steel under the car, would all have been seen on a factory car.

I understand your position, Susan, but the stated purpose of the club is preservation of antique automobiles. What better method of showing preservation, than showing original cars along with the restored cars?

As everyone, looking forward to Hershey and a great show!

[Shop Rat]

.....I understand your position, Susan, but the stated purpose of the club is preservation of antique automobiles. What better method of showing preservation, than showing original cars along with the restored cars? .....

Owners can do that. They can put them in as DNJ and they can sit right beside the originals and restored vehicles. It all comes down to what the owner wants to do within the rules of the club. If anyone wants the rules changed they should go to the roundtable meetings and bring up how they feel it could be done better. Send letters to support their point of view and see what happens.

[Guest billybird]

Shop Rat: Your last two posts pretty much sums the whole thing up. Well stated.

[Shop Rat]

Shop Rat: Your last two posts pretty much sums the whole thing up. Well stated.

Thanks billybird.

I honestly feel that folks that say they don't judge at AACA Meets and/or don't show at AACA Meets should at least learn the ropes before they try to re-rig the ship.

[West Peterson]

Maybe, like me, the ones that want to re-rig the ship have already learned the ropes.

[West Peterson]

Susan

It's not really about "re-rigging the ship", it's more about tautening the lines a little bit. It's not a major deal, and one in which those of us who do know the ropes, feel is an important change. And, without going back and reading all the posts, I don't think anyone here has brought up that they don't judge.

[Shop Rat]

West,

As I said those that want change have to go to meetings and submit supportive arguements for that change.

Been there and done that with the rule about the brand of headlight no mattering. In my case it was made a rule but for several years was not in the Judges Guidelines. It took me three years of writing e-mails and getting support from Dave Berg that taught the rule to me and Joe Vicini but it is now in the Guidelines.

There are folks in the past that have said they don't judge but they want things changed, and in this discussion at least one said they don't show but they think the rule should change.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Shop Rat (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

West,

As I said those that want change have to go to meetings and submit supportive arguements for that change.

That's what's going on right now. The problem is that the few that want the HPOF cars separated are a little louder than the majority that want to display their cars with "their own kind."

[Shop Rat]

Sounds like a good start to me.

Any thoughts on an article in The Automobile, or The Judge, regarding the subject? It would get the information out to the entire membership that there is a desire among those that have HPOF vehicles, or might consider getting one, that would like to see changes and the pros and cons of those changes?

There might be those that aren't aware, because they don't participate on the forums here, that many would like to see changes made. They just might weigh in on the side of the changes that you and others want.

[Restorer32]

Logically it makes no sense to me to have an HPOF car 1/8 of a mile away from a restored car it is supposed to help document. Isn't that like keeping the dictionary in a different building than the library? If the purpose of the class is (partly at least) to preserve original features for research purposes shouldn't we make it as easy as possible to "compare and contrast"?

[Bhigdog]

If HPOF's were lined up with the judged cars why couldn't the same judging team judge them all? Senior, Junior, Preservation, and DNJ are processed all together by the team. Why not HPOF too? Just askin...........Bob

[Restorer32]

If I were an HPOF car owner I would feel much more welcome at an AACA show if my car was in the class with the restored cars. Remember when you were a kid at Thanksgiving and finally were allowed to sit with the grownups at the big table instead of at the folding card table in the hallway with your weird cousin and that spinster aunt who always smelled of Lilacs?

[R W Burgess]

If HPOF's were lined up with the judged cars why couldn't the same judging team judge them all? Senior, Junior, Preservation, and DNJ are processed all together by the team. Why not HPOF too? Just askin...........Bob

Bob, generally there are different people and Team Captains that specialize in the different classes. It would take a major reorganization, not even considering Administration issues with the scoring system, to get one team to judge Preservation and HPOF with the regular classes.

That's what's going on right now. The problem is that the few that want the HPOF cars separated are a little louder than the majority that want to display their cars with "their own kind."

West, I'm sure you're meaning the folks that are posting on this particular thread?

May I also remind everyone that hardly any of the AACA Board members ever follow the Discussion Forum, so as Susan said earlier, the only way the Board knows that one is interested in change is to send a letter to the VP of the particular area involved. (It would be helpful if one was an AACA member too. )

Wayne