88-89 Window & mirror switch restoration

[Fox W.]

If a company like this one Autolaminate.com were able to make a laminate that matched our dark-grey simulated brushed metal interior, it would become quite easy to make old switches look like new again. (Would just have to manage to cut out the lettering.)

Just a thought.. If anyone finds/knows of other places with this service that offer more patterns, that would be great.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[KDirk]

Fox,

I've been toying around with this idea myself, and have what I think is a workable solution. First, instead of a laminate, reproduce the lettering exactly (typeface/size/placement) on a hi-res laser printer (1200DPI) with crop marks at the corners as cutout guidelines. Could even do the outlines of the switches for that matter.

Then, go to a print shop that does offset press work. Have them make an offset negative of the positive image from the laser printer. Now you have a piece of plastic where light can only pass through the letters. The black parts will block the light completely. Take this and brush the top surface lightly with #0000 steel wool or a fine scotch brite pad to give it the brushed striations of the original. This part may need some expermentation/refinement to get it looking right. If not, then it could just be left glossy. Next, cut the openings for the switches out of the negative (this will be the hardest part to get perfect).

Finally, figure out how to dismantle the switch, remove the decal and existing EL underlay. Install new EL backing with proper adhesive and connect the terminals onto the contacts inside the switch module. Yes, this means soldering required. Get a clear spray adhesive and apply the negative to the EL, reassemble the switch module and you should be ready to go. May not be 100% stock looking, but beats the heck out of the lousy looking switches I've seen in most 88/89 Reattas where they are delaminating. Many have failed EL back lighting too, so this solves both problems. If you are willing to forgo the backlighting, this fix gets a lot easier.

I have not yet had a chance to put this to the test, since my higher priority is finding a way to fix 90/91 IPCS (and I am *this* close, I think). Once that problem has been solved, I will try to refurb an 88/89 mirror and window switch assembly.

FWIW, I have employed the approach above to make custom backlit control panels for other projects. Always looks great if done right. The big unknown is if the EL can be replaced since it involves getting into the switch module, and we all know how many little parts can come flying out of one of these things (just like headlamp switches) so it remains to be seen if they can be successfully reassembled.

Food for thought anyway.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

Good ideas, very encouraging. I'll try to take apart a window switch and see how the EL part goes.

[Rawja]

It's "easy". The overlay peels off and the EL feed is a plug-in tab. I'll look for a pic....

[Fox W.]

Oh neat.

[Rawja]

Found 'em.

PRNDL Indicator:

Mirror Switch:

[Fox W.]

Right but those white sections, contrasting with the blue is the EL, and that part is all integrated with the actual PCB and those wide traces.. The rest are just covers. Or am I seeing this wrong? This is what I also remember from when I took it apart way back.. It does look like one could create this by hand without too much trouble if they have the right parts.

Found 'em.

PRNDL Indicator:

Mirror Switch:

Edited April 11, 2011 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[KDirk]

Fox,

I have an 88/89 shift indicator panel here I disassembled, and the way it is setup is that there is a custom EL strip glued to a PC board. The top side of the strip is one pole, the underside is the other pole (positive and negative if you like although it actually runs on AC voltage from the inverter).

The portions that light the gear "words" are all on a common bus, so that all light together. The "ring" illumination is on a switched bus such that as the shift handle moves, the small brass two-finger contact makes and brakes copper traces on the underside of the PC board to light up the ring corresponding to the selected gear.

All connections are made by brass rivets that are stamped through the EL strip and into the copper traces/contact points on the PC board. While not impossible to replicate this EL strip, it would not be easy. I am toying around with ways to fix this as well, but right now I am coming up short of "do it yourself" type solutions that will emulate the original backlight functioning of this part. The LED fix some have done, or your fix using a common EL backlight strip work but sacrifice the indication of which gear is selected.

This one may take me some time to figure out.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

Oh yeah totally, the way it completes contacts to light the brackets is easy to follow just by looking at it, I just meant the patterns and mating the EL copper with the traces will take some labor.. it won't be the kind of thing you can pump out in large batches to sell.. I don't think.. but we won't know until we try.

So back to the window and mirror switches:

What about taking a very high res sample of the simulated metal texture and sending it to someone like these guys? : CUSTOM LAMINATE

Example texture:

[KDirk]

Fox,

That might work except that it would still need to be precision cut somehow to allow the light to pass through the functions legends from the EL strip. This is a major shortcoming of the original design IMO, since it allows "scum" to accumulate in (and eventually under) the lettering cutouts and makes the switch look like garbage. Add the de-lamination of the finish layer from the EL to the mix, and it really looks bad.

I still think the easiest decent way to solve this is to duplicate the lettering and some "crop" lines for the switch cutouts on a hi-res laser printer and make an offset print negative. An added benefit is that several could be done on one sheet of negative. This would be one flush piece, where the lettering (clear on the negative) would be cleanly and uniformly backlit from underneath and the rest would be fully opaque. Since the negative is a piece of clear mylar type material, it would be a high gloss finish. This could be overcome by lightly brushing the surface of it (prior to putting it on the swtich) with #0000 steel wool or a very fine scotch brite pad to add the light striations similiar to the original laminate and the surrounding console trim plate.

This would still not be perfect, as it would be a darker black background on the switch face than the surrounding trim bezel which is more a charcoal or gunmetal grey, but it is probably the best we can do without some very specialized and expensive custom work. I am simply thinking in terms of what can be done at reasonable cost and effort and yield good results.

To make an absolutely stock appearance repro switch cover would require the services of an outside vendor and would undoubtedly require a large minimum as well as setup charges for making dies and such. I don't know that the needed precision could be achieved with conventional vinyl/laminate plotter type cutting equipment such as used by sign makers. The lettering is simply too small (about 10pt. type) to do with that approach.

As to the shift indicator, it would be awfully difficult to replicate the EL strip by simply cutting different pieces of strip and placing them on the orginal PC board. Even if the electrical connections could be made the the bus points on the board, to cut EL strip in such irregular shapes, with one inside the other such as it is for each gear and still get two connection points, would be almost impossible. Keep in mind also that most EL requires a certain minimum surface area to work properly, very small or thin pieces may degrade or burnout prematurely, so I'm not sure we should be considering using EL for a redo.

I am thinking more along the lines of small incandescent 12V lamps with light pipes and light shielding to achieve this. This would require modification of the shift indicator plate, but would take the lighting off the inverter and tie it to the instrumentation and interior lighting circuit thus maintaining the dimming control that exists on the original part, albeit by different means.

I don't know what it would cost to get a run of custom EL sheets made to exactly duplicate the original in layout, but I imagine there is not (yet?) enough interest in something like this to make it worthwhile. Seems I see very few posts on here about the shift EL being burned out, and those who have posted about it have usually found a working part somewhere, or have done a workaround.

Of course, I am open to other thoughts and points of view.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

This is why most projects like this never get far, because the reality is almost no one can sit down with an exacto knife and a letter punch to make perfect cut outs.. and no one is likely to do similar with the EL layer.

I completely agree about the design, it is a shame.. I had mine all cleaned up and was getting the letters to look white and clean again, but then some of the laminate outline around a few letters flaked off, ruining that character.. Since then it has already gummed up again. The clear coat was supposed to be the 'fix' for that, but it was not. That method you have in mind is a very complete idea of something I once thought of, but I don't know enough about printing such things. I like the thought energy though.

As for for milliamp to cm surface area ratio, I think it should be fine if you never allow only a single small area to be powered by itself.. as long as there is enough draw, it should be ok.. The stock EL and inverter (which is modulated at that) was made for longevity, it isn't very high current or frequency, and they used aqua (which is a blend of blue/green crystals) because that has the longest life. Your thought process is perfectly apt as usual though, these will be big challenges.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Fox W.]

I was just thinking.. maybe we should make this simple by using the method I already did for mine (solid 1" wide EL aqua tape) but make a black-out strip that moves with the shifter, blacking out all the all areas of that EL strip except for the text/numbers and the current shift position brackets. That would be easier..

[Rawja]

The GM replacement units for the window and mirror switches did away with the metal gunk-collecting overlay and used a satin finish smooth plastic with black "printing" similar to what was spit-balled above.

On the subject of the PRNDL indicator, remember that it's the overlay that provides the demarkation so there's no reason that the EL beneath be thin like the original, just that it roughly corresponds with the overlay... more plainly put the EL frames can be larger, imperfectly shaped, whatever as the overlay will mask any excesses.

[Fox W.]

Right, it is just the shift indication part that is more challenging.. Having it all lit at once is trivial, I did mine that way years ago in about 15min. (Buy 1" wide Aqua coloured EL tape, cut to length, stick under outer clear plastic (voltage insulator) layer, feed from stock inverter.. done. Example: http://www.elec2go.com.au/images/el%20tape%20aqua.jpg

Also mentioned this all here: http://forums.aaca.org/f116/gps-audio-question-271506.html

The GM replacement units for the window and mirror switches did away with the metal gunk-collecting overlay and used a satin finish smooth plastic with black "printing" similar to what was spit-balled above.

On the subject of the PRNDL indicator, remember that it's the overlay that provides the demarkation so there's no reason that the EL beneath be thin like the original, just that it roughly corresponds with the overlay... more plainly put the EL frames can be larger, imperfectly shaped, whatever as the overlay will mask any excesses.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Fox W.]

I put the rev. 2 power window switch in today. I don't like it. While the lettering certainly is perfect now, it is too different from the original to look right when installed. (In comparison to everything, not just the mirror switch, but also the whole console trim) The color and pattern on the vinyl they used isn't a great match. It is lighter, more gray and less blue. The brushed metal looks like..well, graphics on plastic, rather than actual brushed metal. The simulation is not very good, much less fine and realistic than I hoped. Last is the color of the EL they used, it is much lighter in color compared to the blue-ish aqua of the original. This is accounting for intensity aside, it doesn't match color-wise. I got it purely for cosmetic reasons and so it is disappointing. Just thought I'd mention it. Oh and made in Mexico, and one contact was DOA.. I had to use the contacts from my 1989 part.

[Fox W.]

Anyone wants to see what I mean, look here:

[KDirk]

Fox,

I am still messing around with this problem. The offset negative approach turned out not to be so great from a durability standpoint as the black "mask" is easy to scratch.

Also, these are very glossy and even when texturing them with scotchbrite are not at all close in appearance to the color or striation pattern of the originals. Both need to be replaces as a set or the difference is much too noticeable.

I have put a set I redid in my latest Reatta as both switch decals were completely shot. These are better than nothing, but not the panacea I was hoping for.

I have a couple of other ideas I'm kicking around but they are more complicated and much more costly. There does not seem to be great clamoring to address this based on limited posts here on the subject.

Not sure the cost can be justified to make new die-cut decals for these without sufficient demand. So it is with a lot of restoration items on these cars. If I could just break even I'd do it, but suspect it would be a loss all told.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

Still, I really am thankful that you've tried. I keep hunting for a method myself but it is the letting cutouts that makes it hard. Even with the switches matching they no longer match the console. Aw well.

[DAVES89]

Fox,

If my switches looked like yours I would sing from the mountain tops. I do have a very nice set from the Reatta from Wally's but still not as nice as the ones pictured.

However after seeing the Reattas in S.B. I realize that I have 3 very nice "daily drivers". I don't believe I will spend any more money on appearance. From here on in it is maintenance to keep them running. Sure was an eye opener. I am not complaining I just now know where the line is and on which side I am on.

[KDirk]

Dave,

The desire to have something perfect is, in many cases, borne of an inherent personality trait. Clearly I have that tendency, and it seems Fox does as well.

It can be burdensome as one is always trying to get the object of obsession another step closer to perfect. The ultimate objective is rarely achieved due to lack of time, funds or any number of other reasons. Yet, in my case I keep trying. This may not be a healthy pursuit as it can become all-consuming of ones resources. So, I have to be mindful of what the limits are.

I guess I'm ok since I do this for my own satisfaction and not to impress others. As well I am not bankrupting myself in pursuit of what is, in the perception of most people, a costly folly. It is still a hobby, just a rather intense one.

Sometimes I wish I could just enjoy the cars for their own sake, rather than always seeing them as works in progress. Of course, if others can benefit from my efforts that is a good thing.

KDirk

[DAVES89]

The problem with perfection is that it cannot be attained or sustained. I have 3 very nice looking cars [probably the 3 nicest in the neighborhood] and I have seen yours Kevin, however one just has to decide what line he wants to be on. Because I use my cars daily I see that things get damaged [rock chips, etc.] I no longer see the sense to it. Especially when I have 209,000 on the Red and 240,000 on the Black. I don't mind keeping them in good shape, it is just that they will never be anywhere near 400 point cars or get the kind of attention I saw at S.B.The 'vert just turned 111,000 today so that still might be worthwhile.

I amazed at how you are able to keep your cars looking so good especially when you do not have interior storage. I take my hat off to you [and others] for your efforts.

[KDirk]

Well, I should point out that you've nothing to be ashamed of with your cars. I haven't seen the vert, but the coupes are nice, especially considering the mileage on each.

It is much more impressive to have a high mile car that is nice and well maintained han it is a low mile example . I say that because the high mile cars take more time and effort to keep decent. My first 88 needed very little cosmetic work as it had only 36,000 miles on it and so was already very decent with regard to paint and interior.

My recently acquired 88 needs a lot of work (by my own self-imposed standards) and it has 63,300. This one, however, has suffered some neglect over an extended timeframe. Still not sure I will go for the full treatment I gave my 91 as I am lacking the same level of motivation I had 5 years ago, but in the end I probably will.

Getting back on topic, I have found some aluminum look decal in about the right shade of grey that may work for new decals. Cutting the legends and switch openings is the tricky part. I need to talk to a guy I know who does laser engraving to see if he can precision cut vinyl decal with the laser, or if it will melt or distort too much.

KDirk

[Ronnie]

I can see both sides of the show car quality versus daily driver discussions that take place here. Like Dave, I like for my car to look good and be in good condition but I realize that my car will never be show quality. There are two important reasons why I say that. 1.) It would cost a lot of money to get my car to be show quality. 2.) If I put the money into it to make it show quality I wouldn't want to drive it as often as I do. I take an evening cruise in my car almost every afternoon in the Summer and Fall. It completely relaxes me and makes all the stress of the day disappear. I wouldn't trade the enjoyment I get from that for all the trophies and plaques you could stuff into a closet.

I bought my Reatta for one purpose. To have fun with it and it rarely disappoints me. It always brings a smile to my face when I hit the road.I just can't see me sitting around waiting on my turn for someone to pick my car apart and compare it to other expensive Reattas. If I could afford a second low mileage Reatta in perfect condition it might be different but right now that's just not for me.

Like I think Dave was trying to say, I know where my Reatta fits into the Reatta hierarchy, (quite low at 114k miles), and I'm quite comfortable with that. I feel no need to constantly strive to make it better when I can be out driving it and enjoying it.

I do enjoy reading about the work that others do to their Reattas and I like to offer help when I can. I've read every word about the work that KDirk, Fox, Machiner 55 and all the others have done to their cars. That is what keeps me coming back here.

[DAVES89]

You got it Ronnie!

[Fox W.]

I understand that, like Kevin said I tend to obsess once I get involved in something. I don't like putting effort in to changing the switch out for a result I found disappointing, even if the condition was great. Until I get used to it the switch stands out to me and looks after-market. I think if both switches were just solid black background I would be happy. What bothers me is that this switch is -trying- to look like the rest, and off enough to get my attention.

Dave,

The desire to have something perfect is, in many cases, borne of an inherent personality trait. Clearly I have that tendency, and it seems Fox does as well.

It can be burdensome as one is always trying to get the object of obsession another step closer to perfect. The ultimate objective is rarely achieved due to lack of time, funds or any number of other reasons. Yet, in my case I keep trying. This may not be a healthy pursuit as it can become all-consuming of ones resources. So, I have to be mindful of what the limits are.

I guess I'm ok since I do this for my own satisfaction and not to impress others. As well I am not bankrupting myself in pursuit of what is, in the perception of most people, a costly folly. It is still a hobby, just a rather intense one.

Sometimes I wish I could just enjoy the cars for their own sake, rather than always seeing them as works in progress. Of course, if others can benefit from my efforts that is a good thing.

KDirk

Edited July 30, 2013 by Fox W. (see edit history)

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

KDirk, the laser engraver / cutter was the path I would have taken to reproduce the switch covers, but the $700 minimum entry price puts this and a 3D printer on my dream list well out of the realm of reality.

Getting the matching vinyl is first requisite, which you may have done.

Having a clear covering to keep dirt from getting into the letters when cut out is another not to difficult undertaking.

The Herculean task is to figure out how to keep those little islands inside all the round letters in place after they are cut out. That's where your photographic method held some promise although the inability to match the original finish and durability issues seems to have proven it not worth pursuing.

Keep on fighting the good fight!

[KDirk]

The two ways I have left to pursue are to either get matching (or close) striated aluminum look vinyl and have it laser cut if possible, or have screen printed decals made with die-cut openings for the switch actuators. The former would yield a close-to-stock look, the latter would not.

My thinking is the 2nd approach would be better as it does not involve cutting or engraving the legends.

The likely approach is to get textured laminate film that is identical to the gear shift indicator and screen print the underside with translucent white then opaque black save for the lettering that*needs*to be backlit. Then the switches would match the gear position indicator, but not the console trim plate.

If the effort and funds to do this are to be put forth, I'd prefer to use the approach that will yield the best durability and compromise slightly on trying to maintain stock appearance over all else.

I know those with show cars will probably see it differently. Thing is, GM changed the design once to account for the shortcomings of the original. While what I propose will not be 100% OEM look, it will be an improvement over the V1 design and will not try to marginally emulate the V2 design that Fox finds lacking. Of course, this means changing both switches as a set or the difference will be far too evident.

FWIW, I kind of agree with his assessment as I have the revised window switch but the original mirror switch in #3609. Both switches in Threatta were original, but were so bad I simply had to do something even if just a stop gap.

KDirk

Edited July 30, 2013 by KDirk (see edit history)

[KDirk]

Ok, I am going to post some pictures of what I managed to do with offset negatives as the replacement decals. Keep in mind that I replicated the artwork (text font/size, and outlines of the switch actuator openings) and printed at 1200DPI on a laser printer for proofs. Then sent a digital copy of the file (.pdf) to a local printer and had them make a negative. I then cutout the decals and very painstakingly cutout the switch openings with an exacto knife and a metal circle guide I had from an old drafting class I took years ago.

I used Scotch 45 general purpose spray adhesive to place the new decals onto the mirror and window switch faces (after removing all residue of the old decals and adhesive with lacquer thinner). I had to use lighter fluid (Ronsonol, not charcoal lighter fluid) to remove some adhesive over-spray from the face of the decals after the adhesive cured. Turned out decent, but not perfect.

The pictures are, in order posted, as follows:

1. A set of new decals already cut out and ready to go.

2. a shot of the sheet of negatives (several sets on a letter size sheet) so you can see how it was done.

3. the switches after removal from the console trim and cleaning off the old decals and adhesive.

4. closeup of the completed window switch.

5. closeup of the competed mirror switch.

6. closeup of switches reinstalled in console trim.

In any case, if someone on here is really desperate to get their switches redone, drop me a PM and we can discuss my doing a set like this. I have a limited number of decals (can have more made if needed) and it is a very time consuming process so this is not a "production ready" process, but rather one that I can offer on a limited basis. Best bet is probably to have a spare set of cores I could work on and send back when done. Hopefully I can find a better solution that can be done more quickly without so much hand-cutting, and will then be in a position to refurb switches more easily with better turn around times.

KDirk

[Guest Furman83]

Hello all,

I did something different and perhaps not "Proper". My switches were cosmetically very poor, but worked. I ponied up and got NOS switches (Window and side Mirror) that cost me a pretty penny. Before installing, I took my old Switches and made cut-outs of the switches of Screen Protector Film and placed it over the switches before installation. WHY you ask? Well the main reason for dis-coloration is the oils in our fingers not only deteriorate the thin metalish covers, but also attract dirt and grime. Since I put them on, my switches are like new (2 years). In addition, I put a screen protector on my CRT (referb one, another high $ upgrade). And it, as well, is EZ to clean and helps in keeping the "Rough" finger prints that show up on the actual screen. Just my .02 cents worth.

Rocky

[Fox W.]

Wow Kevin, I'm always impressed. That really looks pretty darn good.

[Fox W.]

Yeah I've thought about the same, if I had NOS switches I would protect them. I haven't had the luck of finding such though.

Hello all,

I did something different and perhaps not "Proper". My switches were cosmetically very poor, but worked. I ponied up and got NOS switches (Window and side Mirror) that cost me a pretty penny. Before installing, I took my old Switches and made cut-outs of the switches of Screen Protector Film and placed it over the switches before installation. WHY you ask? Well the main reason for dis-coloration is the oils in our fingers not only deteriorate the thin metalish covers, but also attract dirt and grime. Since I put them on, my switches are like new (2 years). In addition, I put a screen protector on my CRT (referb one, another high $ upgrade). And it, as well, is EZ to clean and helps in keeping the "Rough" finger prints that show up on the actual screen. Just my .02 cents worth.

Rocky

[DAVES89]

Last night after reading about the switches I got out the switches I found in the "Wally's" Reatta and cleaned them up. First I disassembled the window switch and cleaned the contacts then cleaned up the faces. I used a tooth brush and a mild cleanser. They cleaned up really nice, better then driver grade. However the switches in the car work well, so back in storage they go until I need them.

[Fox W.]

Kevin, how hard is it to get to the EL membrane on these for replacement?

[KDirk]

Fox,

The EL is between the switch body and a plastic diffuser piece that lies just under the decal. It is not that difficult to get to but not so easy to do it without damaging the decal and/or the diffuser which is clear plastic with a layer of translucent white paint on its under side.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

I see. Restoration should include new EL. I also wanted to get in to my new switch and see if the problem with color is the EL or the diffuser. But I am sure it would ruin the switch decal now.

[KDirk]

EL can be replaced but has to be hand fabricated from sheet stock. I've done it but is quite time consuming. IMO, if you have a switch with good EL, leave it be. Matching color is not the issue as much as the light intensity. As EL ages it dims, making new vs. old more obvious when side by side.

KDirk

[Fox W.]

Oh I understand but my observation believes rev. 2 of the stock switch is less blue, more white, at any intensity via the slider. My mental comparison takes intensity in to account. On the other hand, the new EL I used to replace my shift indicator is a perfect color match, but indeed more bright than all the rest. That seems a fair comparison.

EL can be replaced but has to be hand fabricated from sheet stock. I've done it but is quite time consuming. IMO, if you have a switch with good EL, leave it be. Matching color is not the issue as much as the light intensity. As EL ages it dims, making new vs. old more obvious when side by side.

KDirk