PreWar Mercedes Benz

[tilomagnet]

Im not aware of any further covered spare long tail Roadster other than the Warner car and ex-Mann car that came from Argentina originally, either. 

[alsancle]

[alsancle]

[Davlet]

That looks lovely 

[alsancle]

[540K]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:27 PM, 540K said:

Twelve supercharged Mercedes up for auction in Monterey. It will be interesting to watch the one-off roadster #408383 in particular. It will be on the block for the 4th time since Gen. Lyon sold it in 2011. The previous results adjusted for inflation were approximately $6m, $9.4m and $8m. The pre-sale estimate is $7-8m. With five Cab A's up for grabs, someone may have a rare opportunity to pick one up at a decent price (AJ). 😄

Beautiful one-off fully restored roadster 408383 was a NO-SALE at alleged high bid of $6,250,000. That's basically the 2011 price when factoring inflation. Ugly duckling Lancefield and Normal Roadster were other two no-sales today.

And it looks like the days of $2.5M to $3M Cab A's are over, for now. Four of them went today for $1.1M to $1.875M. One more goes on Saturday. Ed may say they weren't bargains, but they were well under the 2008-2017 prices for Cab A's. 

Solid but unspectacular price on the Special Roadster. Buyer must be very pleased considering the ex-Mann roadster was $15,500,000 after inflation (2011 sale).

Here's the scorecard:

 

RM-Sotheby’s                                                                             estimate

113715 Cabriolet C                     $692,500                   $600-800k

123692 Normal Roadster       $1.25m hi bid                $1.4-1.8M

123696 Saoutchik Roadster    $1,710,000                   $1.75-2.25M

130857 Normal Roadster       $1,270,000                    $1.4-1.8M

130941 Cabriolet A                 $1,875,000                    $2-2.5M

154075 Special Roadster         $9,905,000                  $9-12M

169317 Lancefield                   $975k hi bid                  $1.25-1.75M

189391 Cabriolet A                 $1,132,500                     $1-1.25M

408371 Special Cab A             $1,765,000                   $1.75-2.5M

408388 Cabriolet A                 $1,435,000                   $1.4-1.8M

 

Gooding

154084 Special Cab A             $ Saturday                   $1.75-2M

 

Broad Arrow

408383 1-off Roadster             $6.25m hi bid              $7-8M

Edited August 19, 2022 by 540K
readability (see edit history)

[alsancle]

I think you need to remember about all of the RM cars is that they had needs. 30 years of sitting in a collection.  You are looking at 2 to 400 K per car to sort out correctly. And the cabriolet a cars that were bringing 2,000,000+ were typically much nicer. 
 

The black five speed car was the best configuration, provenance, but needed the most work of all the cars. It was also a missing original fuel pump, and some other minor things under the hood.

 

The red right hand drive side mount car was originally configured with a desirable trunk spare. At some point sidemounts were added, but not correctly as you could not open the hoods without removing the side mount fall down. That car did not need a lot cosmetically, maybe 100 K and make it very presentable. However you had to deal with the fender issue, and then the usual mechanical shorting problems. 

[alsancle]

[540K]

45 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I think you need to remember about all of the RM cars is that they had needs. 30 years of sitting in a collection.  You are looking at 2 to 400 K per car to sort out correctly. And the cabriolet a cars that were bringing 2,000,000+ were typically much nicer. 
 

The black five speed car was the best configuration, provenance, but needed the most work of all the cars. It was also a missing original fuel pump, and some other minor things under the hood.

 

The red right hand drive side mount car was originally configured with a desirable trunk spare. At some point sidemounts were added, but not correctly as you could not open the hoods without removing the side mount fall down. That car did not need a lot cosmetically, maybe 100 K and make it very presentable. However you had to deal with the fender issue, and then the usual mechanical shorting problems. 

I agree that condition is a critical assessment, but sales that were 5 to 12 years ago in the $2.5-$3M range would be $3-4M if they just kept up with inflation, without any "real" appreciation. Even discounting for condition, in a strong market the sales this week should have been more than 50% of the inflation-adjusted values of the more highly restored cars. $200-400K for additional restoration costs isn't bringing them up to $3-4M. I think the market peaked in 2015-2017, with lots of no-sales since, and some losses on cars bought just a few years earlier. Six of these eleven cars were no-sales on the block in the past six years! (3 that sold yesterday, and 3 that did not.)

 

Condition certainly differed significantly between the ex-Mann Special Roadster and the Jarvis roadster, but the greater originality of the latter was said to be a strength. (I disagree and still say patina is for quitters.) Even if the new owner restores it to the quality of Mann's car, the Jarvis roadster would be significantly behind the inflation-adjusted value of the Mann roadster.

 

I am very happy to see fewer no-sales than I would have predicted. Perhaps more sellers are not expecting 2016 values anymore. 

[alsancle]

Craig, are you trying to tell us that investing in supercharged Mercedes might not be the best place to put your money? I wish you had told me that 20 something years ago.

[alsancle]

[540K]

On 8/19/2022 at 2:15 PM, alsancle said:

Craig, are you trying to tell us that investing in supercharged Mercedes might not be the best place to put your money? I wish you had told me that 20 something years ago.

That's a completely different topic. My comments were solely about today's market compared mostly to sales of these cars in 2011-2017, not whether anyone should have invested 20 years ago. In 2002 a Cab A was, what, $800,000? Invested in the S&P would probably be about $1.6M. That's similar to what the Cab A's were going for this week, but I'll bet the cars were more fun and less stressful to own.

 

In my original post I suggested that this week might present a buying opportunity. Invest in these cars? Sure. As Ferris Bueller would say, "If you have the means, I highly recommend it." Buy now, have fun, sell when you'd rather have something else. Short term, be the original owner of a hypercar with no miles or buy a Countach.

 

As I write this, I see 154084 just sold for $3,085,000. 😁 I wasn't there to see the cars, so maybe you are correct - this was the only Cab A that wasn't a p.o.s., relatively speaking.

[540K]

Were there any supercharged Mercedes at Pebble Beach? There was no Mercedes class this year.

[alsancle]

33 minutes ago, 540K said:

Were there any supercharged Mercedes at Pebble Beach? There was no Mercedes class this year.

None, except for one SS

[Ben Valkenburg]

On 2/9/2011 at 7:36 PM, alsancle said:

This is a 320 long wheelbase Cabriolet "A". Note the triple wipers. Has an unusual hood screen treatment similar to the 540k. Photo taken in the 80s at an Arizona auction.

Hello everybody, my name is Ben Valkenburg from the Netherlands and I am new at this forum. I read every page about the Pre War Mercedes and I learned a lot from all of you. The picture included is at the first page of this forum and I have bought this car recently. It’s a red 320 Cabriolet a W142 IV with a 340 engine. What I do not understand is the strange 540 like ventilation on the hood. I have only seen it at one other picture of a 320 Cabriolet a (also attached by this post). Is there anyone here at the forum who can tell me more about this car? Thanks allready!

Edited September 1, 2022 by Ben Valkenburg (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Ben Valkenburg said:

Hello everybody, my name is Ben Valkenburg from the Netherlands and I am new at this forum. I read every page about the Pre War Mercedes and I learned a lot from all of you. The picture included is at the first page of this forum and I have bought this car recently. It’s a red 320 Cabriolet a W142 IV with a 340 engine. What I do not understand is the strange 540 like ventilation on the hood. I have only seen it at one other picture of a 320 Cabriolet a (also attached by this post). Is there anyone here at the forum who can tell me more about this car? Thanks allready!

They were some 320s that had 540 K like hood screens. Very few of them.

 

The red on that makes me think it was a Barrett car, let me see if I can dig anything up for you.

[Ben Valkenburg]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

They were some 320s that had 540 K like hood screens. Very few of them.

 

The red on that makes me think it was a Barrett car, let me see if I can dig anything up for you.

Thank you! 

[alsancle]

Here is a picture of your car when it was owned by Thomas Barrett of Arizona (and Barrett Jackson fame) in what I believe is the late 70s.  When he bought it the colors were the same as they are now in the picture you posted.   He painted every car he bought red.    Easily identifiable as the same car by the spot light and hood screens.

[Ben Valkenburg]

Thank you very much! This is more history than I hoped for. I know the car belonged to I private collection of a Mercedes Benz Dealer in Austria afterwards and it is deliverd to Switserland before it went to the US. This piece was missing and is very welcome. The car is still in the same state as it was when it was in the Barrett collection. Here a picture of how It is now. Greetings from the Netherlands.

[alsancle]

I apologize. I confused your two pictures. Yes, they are both the same car. The beige colors are what it was before Barrett painted it red. So that’s probably a 35 to 40 year old picture at least. Probably more.

 

 

[John Bloom]

10 hours ago, Ben Valkenburg said:

Thank you very much! This is more history than I hoped for. I know the car belonged to I private collection of a Mercedes Benz Dealer in Austria afterwards and it is deliverd to Switserland before it went to the US. This piece was missing and is very welcome. The car is still in the same state as it was when it was in the Barrett collection. Here a picture of how It is now. Greetings from the Netherlands.

Beautiful car Ben. Tell us a little bit more about your ownership history and how it drives when you get an opportunity. Thanks for sharing.

[Ben Valkenburg]

Just now, John Bloom said:

Beautiful car Ben. Tell us a little bit more about your ownership history and how it drives when you get an opportunity. Thanks for sharing.

Hi John,

 

I am a Mercedes Bens enthousiast from the early eighties on. I am an expert on 300 SL Gullwing/Roadster and bought this car for a few months ago. I love this car with its 3,4 engine and gearbox with overdrive. Driving it is something I had to learn ;), especialy the gearschifting is something special. I also believe the car has the wrong sparkplugs, I think it is not running perfectly. Maybe someone here can tell me what plugs are needed? The ones I have now are tending to become black after starting.

 

I own several MB Classics but this is my first prewar car.

[alsancle]

Now that you’ve dipped your toe into the prewar water, we will be fitting you for a 540 K in no time.

[John Bloom]

 Ben, thanks for sharing.  There are several MB owners around here who share your passion. I’m glad you found the forum and I’m sure you will enjoy this thread as well as others on the site. I am not the one to give you mechanical advice with your car (I’ve never owned a Mercedes) but I expect others to weigh in with their thoughts and suggestions. 
 

prewar is contagious........  in a good way!  Welcome and don’t hesitate to share with us as we learn from each other. 

[George K]

If anyone trips over this one let me know. My type of prewar Mercedes.

[bugnbox]

Took the Rometsch 320 out to the San Marino Motor Classic. It drove on and off the field under its own power and was very well received by the crowd!

[prewarnut]

   Not to step on the 320 owners in any way, but I've been curious about the 380K. This one has been for sale in Germany for awhile (I have no affiliation). The photos are beautiful and it has a regal stance. It's a Cab C. For 40% off the price of a 500/540K and being much rarer are there any opinions pro/con?

Edited September 12, 2022 by prewarnut (see edit history)

[alsancle]

42 minutes ago, prewarnut said:

   Not to step on the 320 owners in any way, but I've been curious about the 380K. This one has been for sale in Germany for awhile (I have no affiliation). The photos are beautiful and it has a regal stance. It's a Cab C. For 40% off the price of a 500/540K and being much rarer are there any opinions pro/con?

If you ever stand next to one with a 500 K or 540 K next to it, you can see they’re about 15% smaller. Not necessarily anything you would notice without the other car there.

 

They don’t have the outside pipes, which is a hallmark of supercharged Mercedes. I think that affects the price to some extent.

 

But I think the biggest reason if they have a reputation for being under powered. I do not know that myself, I have never driven one. 
 

BTW,  no “K”, just 380.

[540K]

14 hours ago, prewarnut said:

   Not to step on the 320 owners in any way, but I've been curious about the 380K. This one has been for sale in Germany for awhile (I have no affiliation). The photos are beautiful and it has a regal stance. It's a Cab C. For 40% off the price of a 500/540K and being much rarer are there any opinions pro/con?

They are quite rare. I only know of about a dozen still around out of only 157 made (all body styles). I assume this is chassis number 95342. In 2019 a dealer was asking a million Euros; what's the price now?

[alsancle]

15 minutes ago, 540K said:

They are quite rare. I only know of about a dozen still around out of only 157 made (all body styles). I assume this is chassis number 95342. In 2019 a dealer was asking a million Euros; what's the price now?

If we go off the price of the 500 K cab C at Monterey, it’s sold for 670, you can discount about 1/3 for the 380. If you want to know where market value is. Naturally every car is different, condition wise, but the car at RM was pretty nice. 

[Lindberg]

This 380 was for sale in Belgium but was not sold...

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/26494/lot/54/

 

this 380 cab A is woww

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/27526/lot/260/one-of-only-16-cabriolet-a-models-out-of-154-produced-all-body-styles1934-mercedes-benz-380k-cabriolet-a-chassis-no-103367/

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, hansvdc said:

this 380 cab A is woww

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/27526/lot/260/one-of-only-16-cabriolet-a-models-out-of-154-produced-all-body-styles1934-mercedes-benz-380k-cabriolet-a-chassis-no-103367/

 

A smaller version of the 500K Cab A.   An iconic prewar MB style reminiscent of some of the S/SS cars.

[prewarnut]

8 hours ago, 540K said:

They are quite rare. I only know of about a dozen still around out of only 157 made (all body styles). I assume this is chassis number 95342. In 2019 a dealer was asking a million Euros; what's the price now?

   I believe this dealer is asking nearly a million Euros... He's got a few neat MBs including a 630K, and of course the usual, desireable post-war ones.

 

   I agree with Al above it has a more upright profile. I am not a fan of the Special Roadster look but I understand the later streamlining.

[alsancle]

This is the 500K version.   They made a couple of styles and this one has the longer trunk on it (which doesn't look as good as the short in my opinion).   Anyways,  high quality but aging Hill and Vaughn restoration.  Car brought 700K  all in.     The 380 is worth something less than that.

 

 

[HermanOTO]

On 8/27/2011 at 10:55 PM, alsancle said:

This was at Pebble Beach this year. Second version of the 540k Special Roadster. Unrestored I believe. Formerly owned by Dr. Bitgood in CT for many years. Axle Shuette had it for sale 6 or 7 years ago in Germany.

This is #169.384. It has an early Durch history, went to the USA in the fifties and came back to Europe. In 2003 it was shown in the Netherlands, concours Palace Het Loo, see picture below:

[540K]

Hello Herman. I also saw the car at Pebble in 2011. 

[alsancle]

Herman,

 

Here is your picture right side up.    I believe that Axle Shuette has this car for sale 15 years ago?

[HermanOTO]

He showed the car at the concours in 2003. In the same Year he advertised the car in a Classic & Sports Car magazine, I do have a clipping. Regarding the French licence plate, there isn't a (known) connection of this vehicle with France.

[tilomagnet]

Didnt this car come from the collection of Dr Bitgood in CT where the von Krieger longtail Roadster had also been for many years?

[HermanOTO]

That's right.