PreWar Mercedes Benz

[West Peterson]

RM AUCTIONS

This year's Monterrey auction is gonna be interesting for MB guys.... the 540K Paris show Special Coupe (one of two built I think)...

Several years ago I heard rumors of a third coupe. I think it was located in Michigan.

[tilomagnet]

would be great if true, the one known sister car of the Paris coupe is s/n 130942, which is pretty much identical except it's RHD. It was painted a dark blue on the most recent photos I have seen of it.

[alsancle]

I think the short tail sold for around 2.5 but wasn't that 2002? As for the set back radiator, I'm not sure how much that will hurt the price. The prices have gone up quite a bit since then. Interesting to have 4 cars like that at one auction. The Stalin car certainly has the history and the "one-off-ness" going for it but is not quite as attractive as the other 3. I would guess the long tail car will bring the most but very hard to tell.

[Dave Mitchell]

Several years ago I heard rumors of a third coupe. I think it was located in Michigan.

I talked to the owner some years ago and the car is there, but hasn't been seen for years, nor since I talked to him.

[tilomagnet]

I think the short tail sold for around 2.5 but wasn't that 2002? As for the set back radiator, I'm not sure how much that will hurt the price. The prices have gone up quite a bit since then. Interesting to have 4 cars like that at one auction. The Stalin car certainly has the history and the "one-off-ness" going for it but is not quite as attractive as the other 3. I would guess the long tail car will bring the most but very hard to tell.

'02 for the Short tail auction could be correct, I think it was RM at Amelia and the car had been offered prior to that and didn't sell. Prices sure are always going up for these type of cars, but I still don't think it will bring those estimated figures, it might do if it was the only genuine SR on the market in a long time, but not with the other cars present IMO.

As for the long tail the last one at a public sale was Ecclestone's 540K and that brought $ 8.1, I don't think 154140 will go for less.

[tilomagnet]

posted over on the HAMB:

To answer my own question about this car.....I think it is 154075, listed on page 244 of Melin Vol II among the surviving cars. Also according to Melin delivered new to the King of Afghanistan. Apparently in the '60ies it was in Florida in the Silver Springs car collection.

Anyone know the current whereabouts of this Roadster? I found various recent references to said collection, so apparently it still exists, but is the Merc still there? Anyone?

[alsancle]

There are some nice pictures of this 500k Cabriolet C posted on the 220-170 forum.

[Guest Skip Jordan]

As tilomagnet noted above, there are lots of nice images of the 540Ks to be auctioned by RM on Saturday

RM Auctions

RM AUCTIONS

I also recently found a couple of shots of the blue Spezial Coupe, listed as a 1937, which appears to have Swiss ID.

Edited August 17, 2011 by Skip Jordan (see edit history)

[Guest Skip Jordan]

On another note, I'm trying to gather information on this particular 1933 SS, which supposedly at one time was owned by German showman/producer Willy Forst. The most recent time I saw it was on a TV show featuring a classic car meet in Salzburg. Does anyone know about this car? The Mercedes Classics Center could only find basic specifications. One particular question is the unusual manifold design, which appears to have 3 rather than the typical 2 ducts. I'd love to find some shots of the other side of the engine.

I am grateful to Boris and Rainer Schlegelmich for allowing members of their site to share their fine photography with others, and for answering my request to add a number of shots to the gallery of this car. There are several other galleries of prewar Mercedes on the site.

Welcome to Schlegelmilch Photography

Edited August 17, 2011 by Skip Jordan (see edit history)

[alsancle]

On another note, I'm trying to gather information on this particular 1933 SS, which supposedly at one time was owned by German showman/producer Willy Forst. The most recent time I saw it was on a TV show featuring a classic car meet in Salzburg. Does anyone know about this car? The Mercedes Classics Center could only find basic specifications. One particular question is the unusual manifold design, which appears to have 3 rather than the typical 2 ducts. I'd love to find some shots of the other side of the engine.

I am grateful to Boris and Rainer Schlegelmich for allowing members of their site to share their fine photography with others, and for answering my request to add a number of shots to the gallery of this car. There are several other galleries of prewar Mercedes on the site.

Welcome to Schlegelmilch Photography

It looks remarkably like the SS that Paul Russell had for sale (I believe 2.5 million was the asking price) back around 2002.

[Guest Skip Jordan]

Speaking of the Caracciola 500K coupe, does anyone know the truth about the interior/exterior colors? Can't find any color pictures anywhere.

Exterior: Medium or dark maroon?

Interior: Wood trim on the dash top like the 504K Spezial coupe or leather?

Steering wheel: White, black, wood or leather wrapped?

Any help will be appreciated.

[alsancle]

Isn't the interior pictured in Melin vol I ? I don't have copy close by to look. If those bumpers are white then the steering wheel is white also.

[Guest Skip Jordan]

Isn't the interior pictured in Melin vol I ? I don't have copy close by to look. If those bumpers are white then the steering wheel is white also.

I don't have the Melin book, but I know that the bumpers on the 500K Spezial Coupe are completely chrome, while the bumpers on the 540K have white inserts, and the 540K's steering wheel is wrapped in light tan leather as shown in the RM Auctions listing linked in my post above.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Skip Jordan (see edit history)

[tilomagnet]

here's a short video posted on RM's website containing a few shots of 154140 probably shortly after delivery:

Videos Posted by RM Auctions: 1937 Mercedes-Benz 540 K Spezial Roadster - Monterey 2011 [HQ] | Facebook

These are to date the only images I've seen of a SR originally delivered in a two tone scheme. It seems likely that the photo on page 164 of Melin II is of this car still on German plates probably shortly before being shipped overseas.

[Guest Skip Jordan]

here's a short video posted on RM's website containing a few shots of 154140 probably shortly after delivery:

Videos Posted by RM Auctions: 1937 Mercedes-Benz 540 K Spezial Roadster - Monterey 2011 [HQ] | Facebook

These are to date the only images I've seen of a SR originally delivered in a two tone scheme. It seems likely that the photo on page 164 of Melin II is of this car still on German plates probably shortly before being shipped overseas.

I'm a bit confused because I thought the Spezial Roadsters all had low-slung door tops without roll-up windows, and this appears to be a Cabriolet A with the high-top doors. Interesting, though, that the video takes place in the postwar Nazi haven of Argentina.

EDIT: Okay, I stand corrected based on further research. Door shape doesn't matter.

Edited August 21, 2011 by Skip Jordan (see edit history)

[tilomagnet]

It's not a Cab A, it's a "regular" long tail Special Roadster except that the two-tone scheme makes it look a bit more unusual. Oh, and the front bumper is different from the standard type for these cars and may have been added after delivery. They all have roll-up windows by the way.

It's the car that got auctioned by RM yesterday@ $8.8 MM.....today it's silver with blue interior.

As to Argentina, several K's got there in the pre-war years and sure enough this very car had been associated in the past with a certain person of German origin who lived there for a while in the post war days. I did even comment on that some posts above on this page. Of course as with most of these kind of claims it's utter bullshit.

[alsancle]

The prices all landed about where you would expect given the trajectory of the last few years. However I still was surprised given how weak the general economy is and the downward direction for most of the other parts of the car market. The cab A was most surprising as that was a million dollar car 5 or 6 years ago.

[Guest Skip Jordan]

The prices all landed about where you would expect given the trajectory of the last few years. However I still was surprised given how weak the general economy is and the downward direction for most of the other parts of the car market. The cab A was most surprising as that was a million dollar car 5 or 6 years ago.

I have been trying to find the auction results but Google doesn't turn it up, and RM isn't updated. Do you have a link?

[alsancle]

A friend gave me the results for the 5 Mercedes. I have not seen anything else yet except for the Whittel Coupe bringing 10 million.

[tilomagnet]

2011 RM Auctions in Monterey - LIVE BLOG

[Guest Skip Jordan]

Just found the results of the top 15.

RM Auctions Monterey 2011 - Sale Results

[alsancle]

1. 1937 Mercedes-Benz 540 K Spezial Roadster – $9,680,000

2. 1960 Ferrari 250 GT SWB Berlinetta Competizione – $5,280,000

3. 1939 Mercedes-Benz 540 K Spezial Roadster – $4,620,000

4. 1935 Mercedes-Benz 500 K Roadster – $3,767,500

5. 1952 Ferrari 340 Mexico Berlinetta – $3,685,000

6. 1936 Mercedes-Benz 540 K Spezial Coupe – $3,080,000

7. 1936 Mercedes-Benz 540 K Sport Cabriolet A – $2,970,000

8. 1955 Ferrari 750 Monza Spyder – $2,530,000

9. 1962 Ferrari 400 Superamerica Coupe – $2,090,000

10. 1953 Ferrari 375 America Coupe – $1,980,000

11. 1967 Ferrari 275 GTB/4 Berlinetta – $ 1,485,000

12. 1970 Porsche 911S Steve McQueen Le Mans Movie Car – $1,375,000

13. 1958 BMW 507 Roadster – $1,072,500

14. 1924 Mercedes-Benz 28/95 Sport Phaeton – $1,017,500

15. 1934 Duesenberg Model J Riviera Phaeton – $990,000

[tilomagnet]

The prices all landed about where you would expect given the trajectory of the last few years. However I still was surprised given how weak the general economy is and the downward direction for most of the other parts of the car market. The cab A was most surprising as that was a million dollar car 5 or 6 years ago.

Agreed. The coupe and the short tail stayed well below their estimates, but those were definately a bit on the optimistic side. almost $3 MM for a standard Cab. A (540K engine or not) is astounding though. Probably someone got outbid on the Specials and jumped on that one, so he wouldn't have to go home without a car lol.

[Guest Skip Jordan]

Does anyone have a clue about the interior appointments of this car, the 500K Spezial Coupe given by Mercedes to Caracciola? Does it have a full wood dashboard like the 540K Spezial, or just a top bar of wood with a leather dash face? Is the steering wheel black, white or wood? This car has disappeared from modern view.

[West Peterson]

I always tought Caracciola used the same plaid as he used in his race cars, but it doesn't appear so in what little I see in that photo.

[Guest Skip Jordan]

I've seen no reference to a plaid in the Caracciola 500K, though the subsequent 1936 540K coupe was supposed to have debuted at the 1936 Paris show with a cloth interior and plaid seats, introducing the entire 540K line, but the interior was changed to leather soon after. The show car, supposedly, was a dark brown and many years later was changed to the dark red for which it is known today. I assume the 1936 540K show car had seats looking something like this, which was far in advance of the famous SLR and 300 SL racing plaid. As for the 500K? I doubt it had plaid.

Edited August 26, 2011 by Skip Jordan (see edit history)

[alsancle]

This was at Pebble Beach this year. Second version of the 540k Special Roadster. Unrestored I believe. Formerly owned by Dr. Bitgood in CT for many years. Axle Shuette had it for sale 6 or 7 years ago in Germany.

[alsancle]

For sale at auction. 500k Cab C.

Chassis Number: 123741

Engine Number: 113623

Cc: 5016

Body Colour: Black

Trim Colour: Grey

[alsancle]

Here is a 36 540k Cab A that was modified sometime in the 1950s and painted gold (shown in red below) It was paraded around as the "Eva Braun" car. Also shown is the same car under restoration back to stock Cab A specs. More info here.

Edited September 6, 2011 by alsancle (see edit history)

[K8096]

Is that red Mercedes you just posted the one that was owned by Dil Stanley of Alliance, Ohio in the late 1960's - early 1970's? His had skirted fenders too, but I didn't remember them being THAT modified.

[alsancle]

Jason,

I'm not sure but I would lean towards not. In the 60s I think it was still bright gold in color and memorable for that feature. I believe it was still gold as late as 1970.

A.J.

[K8096]

It was red with cream wheels when Dil had it. It was pictured in the CCCA magazine when that article about the Kreiger car was published some 10 years ago.

[alsancle]

Below is a picture of chassis number 36337 engine number 77638. Car was originally bodied by Erdmann and Rossi and then rebodied by factory with current body. Shown at the 1933 Baden-Baden concours. These two cars have some similar characteristics but also some significant differences in the rear fenders, tail, and doors. Btw, this car was available, unrestored for approx 2.5 million U.S. about 10 years ago.

Edited September 6, 2011 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Haven't posted in a while. Here is a 500k going down the straightaway a the Loudon

[alsancle]

Here is an advertisement for a 500k when it was 3 years old. The dealer is taking some poetic license with the year of manufacture which was actually 36. The reference to being one of the fastest stock cars for the era was correct. The invoice for this car was just about $10,000 in 1936 when it was purchased from Mytropia Motors of NY. Three years later it was selling for $3750.00

[alsancle]

A 380 normal roadster. You see few 380's around. I've only seen 2 in person. Easy to distinguish from the 500k & 540k by the lack of exterior pipes.

[alsancle]

I have been told by a reliable source that there is a 500k/540k Conv in Michigan that was missing it's engine. When the owner could not acquire a correct engine he's built a subtle custom using a modern Mercedes engine. The car is being prepared to compete for the Ridler Award at the Detroit Autorama in 2012. Does anybody know anything else about this particular MB? Is it a Cab "B" or a Cab "A" or perhaps an outside body builder? I can't imagine under any circumstances it's a Cab "A" or Roadster.

[alsancle]

Here is a 500K Cab "C" that Steve Mack pointed out to me. It's for sale and you can read the whole ad here. Not to go off topic but the whitewalls are a crime. I posted it previously when it was going to auction but it did not sell. I believe it's listed in this month's Sports Car Market.

An excerpt:

According to its accompanying copy factory commission book extract, the order for this particular example - chassis number 123741 - was placed on November 1st 1935. Interestingly, another piece of paperwork on file suggests that the Cabriolet C was first owned by Lt. Colonel Stancomb and issued with the London registration number 'HXM 325' (one of its sister 500Ks - chassis number 123737 - being dispatched to the Marquis de Portago and road registered as 'GC 5149'). Resident in America by 1938, a contemporaneous photocopied Passenger Vehicle Registration Renewal Stub lists the Mercedes-Benz as belonging to Mark Stevens of Maple Avenue, Scotia, New York. Passing to Robert Saunders of Concord, Massacheusetts many years later, the four-seater had its correct type but replacement engine (number 113623) overhauled by renowned restorer M.L. Bud Cohn of Los Angeles, California during 1971. Despite Mr Saunders' varied attempts at refurbishment, chassis 123741 was complete but somewhat careworn by the time it entered the Valencia Collection.

Edited November 19, 2011 by alsancle (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Not to go off topic but the whitewalls are a crime.

So, too, are the chrome wheels.

[alsancle]

West, at least MB delivered some of those cars with chrome wheels. Almost none of them came with WW. I do agree that it would look better with black spokes with the chrome weight covers.