PreWar Mercedes Benz

[alsancle]

A J, the Erdmann and Rossi and Windovers photos don't come up for me - are they there?

Yeah, that is weird. I've had that happen before and I've assumed it's moderators removing them for some reason. I've taken care to not to link copyrighted material so I don't know what is going on. The "current" picture of the Windovers which was removed was a link and not my photo. I will repost the Erdmann-Rossi roadster as that is my photo.

[K8096]

AJ,

What year was that photo taken? It appears to be taken at Hershey. Now, you all remember the green Duesenberg Willoughby sedan that was on e bay back in January, right? What was parked next to it in the garage in those photos? It was the same tan & brown 1932 Packard Eight phaeton that you see parked next to the red Mercedes. Small world, isn't it? The Packard has since gained metal tire covers, whitewalls, and spotlight since your photo AJ.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350430690181&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fmotors.shop.ebay.com%3A80%2F__%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm39%26_nkw%3D350430690181%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1

Edited March 18, 2011 by K8096 (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Jason, it was taken at Hershey in 1962. Good eye on the Packard.

[K8096]

I'm sure West will have something to say about the Packard having blackwalls in 1962 and whitewalls now.

[alsancle]

I'm sure West will have something to say about the Packard having blackwalls in 1962 and whitewalls now.

I'm with West on that one. Perhaps I'm still trying to get over my dad putting them on everything including the lawnmower back in the 60s and 70s.

[alsancle]

This Special Roadster is pictured at Hershey in 1965 on page 237 of Melin Volume II. It was restored with a set of more conventional special roadster type front fenders. In fact the picture in in the book happens to be credited to Dave Mitchell.

[alsancle]

A 1937 320N Cabriolet "A" for sale. This is the short chassis version of the 320 (hence the "N").

[alsancle]

A 1933 380 Roadster for sale. Note the difference in the dash from the 500/540k. A 380 is basically the same as a 500k but 25% smaller all around. The biggest external difference is the absence of the pipes coming out of the hood.

[West Peterson]

Al

As far as I'm aware, there was no moderator involved with the photos not showing up.

[alsancle]

Al

As far as I'm aware, there was no moderator involved with the photos not showing up.

It is weird because they went away and then came back again. The external links were valid and the host site was up at the time. Puzzling. I figured maybe there was a copyright on them and I didn't notice.

[West Peterson]

Very weird. They're still not showing up for me.

[tilomagnet]

This Special Roadster is pictured at Hershey in 1965 on page 237 of Melin Volume II. It was restored with a set of more conventional special roadster type front fenders. In fact the picture in in the book happens to be credited to Dave Mitchell.

This is the car that is owned by General Lyons today, painted in a quite odd color. I've always thought the wings were a period modification, then returned back to original in the restauration. Do you have more info on this car? Who was the original owner and where was the Roadster between the '60ies and when it reappeared in restored state at Pebble in 2002 (?).

[alsancle]

This is the car that is owned by General Lyons today, painted in a quite odd color. I've always thought the wings were a period modification, then returned back to original in the restauration. Do you have more info on this car? Who was the original owner and where was the Roadster between the '60ies and when it reappeared in restored state at Pebble in 2002 (?).

Somewhere I have pictures of it but they are early 60s. I agree with your thesis that the wings were a period mod as I have never seen a period picture with fenders like that. The heavier fenders did not look quite right and I would be surprised to find out they were sindelfingen. I do not know the history at all and would be interested to find out more about this car.

[Dave Mitchell]

I wouldn't say it is an odd color - just maroon, which was a color that MB had in the 30s. It just isn't red, silver or black, so perhaps unusual. The one that is odd to me is the repop one that is white. I did take the photo of the Lyon car at Pebble. I'd have to ask Jan about when the fenders were changed or if the red ones were from the factory.

[tilomagnet]

Definately more refreshing than red/tan with whitewalls ^^. I've just looked at a couple pictures of the Roadster inside the Lyon home and it does actually look a lot better than I remembered it from the PB photos. The color looked like some kind of purple in those pics. It'd be great if you got confirmation from Jan what the car probably looked like originally.

Edited March 19, 2011 by tilomagnet (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Definately more refreshing than red/tan with whitewalls ^^. I've just looked at a couple pictures of the Roadster inside the Lyon home and it does actually look a lot better than I remembered it from the PB photos. The color looked like some kind of purple in those pics. It'd be great if you got confirmation from Jan what the car probably looked like originally.

+1 on the red/tan/whitewalls. I think I posted a bunch back on page 2 or 3 of this thread. Every Mercedes restored in the 1980s was done in these colors. I will say that Mercedes did in fact deliver a few cars this way. I've seen the invoice for a 500k Cab "A" that was specified red with a red chassis and chrome wires.

[alsancle]

Right side of a 540k engine compartment. You can distinguish the 540k vs. 500k by the intake and exhaust manifolds. The exhaust is on top for the 540k. The main thing people look at is the silencer (air cleaner) but I've seen 540k engines with factory 500k silencers on them.

[alsancle]

An ad for luggage with what looks like a 380 or 500k Cab B.

[Dave Mitchell]

An ad for luggage with what looks like a 380 or 500k Cab B.

Great ad!

[Dave Mitchell]

pages from the 500K catalog

[alsancle]

posted over on the HAMB:

[tilomagnet]

Thanks for digging up new pics. This is a car I haven't seen yet at least in that state. Do you have a s/n? When and where was the photo taken?

There aren't too many RHD Special Roadsters, also refreshing to see painted wire wheels instead of the common chromed ones.

[terry54999]

Jumping in late on this thread, My dad bought the '37 230 cabrio that I am currently restoring, for $250 in '62. later, around '67 or '68 he had a chance to buy a '37 320 A. The car was rough, (but today would be considered very restorable) anyway, he had no room, family etc. and his 230 was stored outside under a tarp!! (stored that way untill '75 when his garage was built) when he declined the purchase of the 320, the guy offered to sell him the wire wheels, caps, hubs etc. for "a couple hundered bucks" he also passed on the wheels. I wish I had the 320 now. couldnt have been much worse than my 230 when I started on it 40 years later.

[alsancle]

Jumping in late on this thread, My dad bought the '37 230 cabrio that I am currently restoring, for $250 in '62. later, around '67 or '68 he had a chance to buy a '37 320 A. The car was rough, (but today would be considered very restorable) anyway, he had no room, family etc. and his 230 was stored outside under a tarp!! (stored that way untill '75 when his garage was built) when he declined the purchase of the 320, the guy offered to sell him the wire wheels, caps, hubs etc. for "a couple hundered bucks" he also passed on the wheels. I wish I had the 320 now. couldnt have been much worse than my 230 when I started on it 40 years later.

If you can definitely post some pictures of the 230. Is it an A, B or C?

[alsancle]

Thanks for digging up new pics. This is a car I haven't seen yet at least in that state. Do you have a s/n? When and where was the photo taken?

There aren't too many RHD Special Roadsters, also refreshing to see painted wire wheels instead of the common chromed ones.

This car was used in a postcard that I have some where. I don't have a serial number but we could probably figure it out by process of elimination.

[terry54999]

mine is a '37 230 B pic was taken around '63 or '64 after most of the chrome was removed and sent to a plater. its still wrapped in the old newspaper it came back in. I will try and post current pics soon, but for whatever reason, the pics I have in my files now wont load to the site.

[alsancle]

That is cool. Did it have metal spare covers?

[terry54999]

no, when he bought it, someone had used mid '30s ford spare covers. it has sidemount clamps that dont allow for a cover. I just got word from the UK that a set of fenders are avail. as you can see in the ic. they were rough even back then. fenders were one of the few things I was looking for. I will try again this weekend to load current pics.

[terry54999]

I also wanted to add, after reading the entire thread, MB was very cooperative when it came to records. they supplied me with a full size coy of the original commission sheet showing the completion date, delivery date, and the original purchasers info. apparently it was purchased by a company that manufactured hats. (possibly military supplier?) they also provided several copies of tech. manuals as well as owners manuals on film. unfortunatly, I did not revieve any "as built info" such as color or add ons. I do have som nice original paint samples. Upper body was dark royal blue as were the fenders, while the middle body and wheels were a medium to dark grey. I am going to stay with the dark blue and cream that was applied on its second re-paint. with blue leather interior and blue cloth top (also as original)

[alsancle]

It is amazing how much info MB still has given the bombing during WWII. I think there is less on the Mannheim built ones but the they have everything on the Sindelfingen cars. However, I do not believe they will give out the original owners anymore because of privacy concerns.

Here is a shot of a 500k Exhaust and swing rear end setup.

[Dave Mitchell]

A few photos of the Blue Goose at Indy last weekend. You can see where it was shot with a .45 in the left front fender and left door glass. Also the roll up rear armor is pretty interesting as well as the louvered armor under the car. The driver's seat is thinner to accomodate the girth of the original owner. The bulletproof glass and higher windshield doesn't look as sporty as the delicate original design, but it does set this car apart.

[Dave Mitchell]

Another Special Roadster at Indy

[alsancle]

Another Special Roadster at Indy

Was this the Baroness's car? The restoration is very well done but I liked it before it was restored too.

[Dave Mitchell]

Not sure, this one is owned by Sam Mann

[tilomagnet]

The von Krieger Special Roadster is finished in grey with red leather, that's a different car. I think the Manns' 540 K spend some time in South America and is only one of two known cars with the covered spare in the back. It was BOS at Amelia in 2010, but had been shown by them at PB several years earlier already as well.

[alsancle]

For some reason I recalled it a silver. The "jack Warner" car also has the covered spare - is that the other one?

[tilomagnet]

Yep.

The Von Krieger car.

[Dave Mitchell]

Looking at Jan's books, I would say that the change to the covered spare was in 1937, the Berlin show car has it as well as other cars. I don't know how many survive, but there were more than 2 built. I know that with MBs there are no hard and fast rules, but it seems like most were covered after 36.

[alsancle]

Dave, I know the 2nd variation of the 540k Special roadster all had the covered spare. This would be the ones without the set back radiator. I'm not sure of the numbers on the earlier 500/540k long tail models. As a side note, my uncle Ted Billing briefly owned one of these later models in the 1960s. He had paid 6k dollars for it from a dealer in NY. My dad had bought his Cab A at the same time from the same dealer for 5500. Ted's car was mechanically in need and he had a tough time keeping it running. After a month he decided to return it to the dealer but first offered it to my dad. Since my dad's car was a very nice 20k original mile car so he decided to keep his and Ted brought the special roadster back.

[tilomagnet]

RM AUCTIONS

This year's Monterrey auction is gonna be interesting for MB guys.... the 540K Paris show Special Coupe (one of two built I think), the one-off 1939 Horn Special Roadster, the 1935 Berlin show short tail Special Roadster, another 540 K A Cab with the earlier 500K style body and last but not least 154140 long tail Special Roadster from the Mann collection are up for auction.

IMO the $ 3-4 mio. estimates for the late one off Special and the Paris show coupe could be realistic, though I think the Special Roadster should actually be the higher valued of the two, as apart from the striking unique coachwork it does have a much more interesting history and despite being brought to the SU after the war it made it out in relatively good condition and seems to have retained all it's major original parts.

I think the $ 4-5 MM estimate on the short tail 1935 Special is too high....they had a lot of trouble moving this car at $ 2 MM a couple years back already. Without the set-back radiator this is obviously the least desireable SR, there are still quite a few of these around and this example - while there's not doubt that it's an original - lost it's original engine sometime in the last 75 years. Plus there's obviously stiff competition here, anyone with a couple millions to spend on a 540 K will probably go for the long tail.

By the way, even as of the Amelia Island appearance of 154140 last year the the story of Eichmann using this car was still beng told. Because obviously for a fugitive it makes totally sense to drive around in one of the most flamboyant cars ever created.

On the RM page there is a believeable history of the car given, not sure how accurate it really is, I've only known of this car when it came to Germany in the late '90ies when a well known vintage car dealer started a restoration.