TexRiv_63 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 It's been awhile since I posted anything about this car. I found it in January 2009 and initially it was a nice runner and driver, so much so that it passed state inspection and I registered it with regular Texas plates. Unfortunately that condition did not last and I ran into major driveability problems. With the kind help of members of this forum as well as the CLC I went through the ignition system, compression testing, timing, and valve adjustment, all of which helped but did not cure my problems. Next came the fuel system - I had the fuel pump rebuilt and played with the Detroit Lubricator carbs, which rewarded my efforts with even more stumbling, backfiring, and leaking. The car was close to undriveable so I finally decided to replace the carburetors with a more modern updraft design. A conversion "kit" was recommended to me by another V-12 owner which consisted of a pair of NOS Zenith - Bendix cast iron carbs with flange modifications and custom throttle arms. I purchased this kit and pulled my car into the front spot in my tandem garage to start work. Little did I know this job would take almost seven months, make me think I had gone crazy, and seriously tempt me to give up and turn the car into a backyard planter!I plan to tell the story, warts and all, with photos taken along the way. I will give away the happy ending now, I finally got the car running two weeks ago and driving better than it ever had last weekend. The attached photos show the first time it was out of that front garage spot in way too long.Stay tuned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Glad to hear that, Don. Looking forward to your tale. Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 3, 2011 Author Share Posted February 3, 2011 OK, here we go. I received the conversion "kit" which consisted of two carbs and two adapter throttle arms plus gaskets. The mounting flanges were smaller than the Detroits so the mounting holes were machined into slots. I decided at the beginning that I did not want to modify any of the original parts in case a future owner wanted to go back to factory condition, so I removed the Detroits along with the fuel lines, throttle rods, and choke rods. I started by bolting on the Zeniths to see what I was up against. I had to relieve the sides of the mounting flanges with a die grinder to clear the existing locating pins on the intake manifold. The Zeniths are larger and heavier than the pot metal Detroits, they were a tight fit but cleared the frame on each side. I noticed that these carbs were identical, that is not a right and a left, which I saw would affect the fuel line entry. They were designed to allow easy modification for throttle and choke linkage, although when it came to the choke I did not figure this out until later. I tried the throttle adapter arms which were designed for inside mounting like the Detroits - my first problem, they did not clear the manifolds. I decided to make my own linkage and mount it on the outside for easier access. I bought new diecast throttle arms and clevis pins, and made up the links from 1/4" brass rod. Once I found all the right parts it was actually pretty easy to make them up.Next up - fuel lines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dean_H. Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Nice job! Carbs look good in there and that throttle linkage looks like a million bucks. Certainly wouldn't be considering conversion to planter box at this point. :-) Looking forward to the next installment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Boltendal Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Don, that certainly has turned out to be a very fine substitute with some excellent solutions. Congrats.Allow me to remark, the clearance between frame and carb housing seems very little, from the picture showing this. Engine movement under acceleration or heavy breaking mght lead to an interferance with bad results for the carb.can imagine the smile on your face driving the V-12, running the way it did, taking it out for a first drive. Johan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Johan,Thanks, the clearance is more than it appears in the photos, about 1/2" to 3/4"at the tightest point. I do have a little rubbing against the storage box cover on the drivers side, might have to do a little "relieving". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 Part two - Fuel LinesSince the fuel inlets were located and sized differently on the Zenith carbs I knew I had to make up new 5/16" fuel lines from the fuel pump to the carburetors. The originals were chrome plated steel but after a bit of research I decided to use Cunifer tubing which is a copper - nickel alloy used on European cars for fuel and brake lines. This has the easy formability of copper without the work hardening danger of pure copper and it polishes up to look like nickel plating. I ordered enough 5/16" tubing to do both the Cadillac and my Pierce Arrow plus 3/8" tubing to replace the line from the tank to the fuel pump. The next adventure was finding all the right brass fittings to put it all together with an appearance similar to original. Most were found at my dependable old local ACE hardware store but a few had to be special ordered through my buddies at the local NAPA store. Once I had all the fittings I installed them on the carbs with sealer, this included some brass plugs for some unused vacuum openings. With the carbs back on the car I used the original lines as a starting point and made up the new ones. The cunifer is very easy to bend, shape and flare and polished up nicely. Everything went together easily, the only part I don't like is the passenger side carb connection which is a little clunky.Next: Choke linkage version 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Part Three - Choke Version 1 / Fuel SupplyOne of the challenges of adapting the universal and identical dual Zeniths was hooking up the chokes. The 32 Cad 12 and 16 use a lovely chromed bellcrank assembly mounted on the firewall to convert the action of pulling out one choke knob to PUSHING two choke rods forward, one to each carb on each side of the engine. Unfortunately the choke plate actuators on the Zenith carbs operated in reverse compared to the Detroits and were set up for a standard bowden cable instead of a rod. After looking at this for awhile I decided I would have to accept reverse operation of the choke knob, i.e: when the knob was pulled out the choke would be closed and would open when pushed in. I found some cable stop ends that fit in the bellcrank levers, fabricated some rather crude cable support brackets that bolted to the firewall under the original air cleaners, and made up two short cables from an old universal one I had lying around. Once it was all hooked up and adjusted it seemed to work although the choke knob action was pretty stiff.The only thing left was connecting to the fuel tank. My original main fuel line was 3/8" steel but had been cut to add a large Carter electric pump with ugly soldered together 5/16" copper line. I wanted to use a lower pressure pump plus add a shutoff valve and replaceable filter so I replaced the entire fuel line with 3/8" Cunifer. All fittings were flare type except for short rubber lines allowing filter replacement. I used an Airtex E8902 pump with a compact inline design, easy clamp mounting to the frame, and a second filter. I mounted the fuel line to the frame in rubber lined Adel clamps with additional rubber insulation added at all potential contact points.Next: All hooked up, will it start? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dean_H. Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Since you said it wasn't easy, I'm going to guess it doesn't start yet. Maybe... you'll need to prime the fuel pump. I'm no expert on these things, but I've read that electric pumps, push fuel easier than pulling it. Since your pump is mounted near the motor, it's quite a distance, considering the size of this car. Way to go on the flare fittings, especially if they are double flared. You certainly don't want any leaks and compression fittings never seem to hold up as well. Time to fire it up! Would sure like to hear it run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Dean,I'm not really building much suspense, am I? I used all the flare fittings because in my previous attempts to get the Detroits to work I tried adding a filter and shutoff valve using compression fittings cut into the original steel line. This was in addition to the compression fittings used for the original electric pump addition. The result was many leaks, luckily I didn't blow up my garage. Regarding the electric pump location, the main fuel line routing is slightly downhill, providing gravity feed to the pump. I found this out the hard way the first time I removed my filter without the front of the car jacked up - surprise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Part four - Will it Start?In a word - NO! I put in an Optima battery, charged it up and started cranking - and cranking - and cranking. Nothing. Added a couple gallons of fresh gas to the tank, nothing. Tried the choke open and closed, the electric pump on and off, nothing. Checked the spark at all the plugs, nice and hot, nothing. Pulled off the fuel lines at each carb to check for gas, had good flow but still nothing. Disconnected the main line from the tank and put it in a can of fresh gas, nothing. Tried different fuel mixture settings, nothing. Removed both carbs and disassembled, they were new inside, nothing. Even tried starter fluid, NOTHING, not even one cough! Now understand I don't have a lot of time to work on my cars, primarily one day on the weekends and maybe a weekday night here and there. It had taken me about 3 - 4 months to do the physical part of the conversion and the abovementioned circle jerk took me another 3 months.I had checked everything I could think of with no positive results and I was really down in the dumps. Included in the time spent was probably the better part of a month where I just let the d--n thing sit because I was sick of it. The worst part was that I knew it was probably something simple that I had forgotten or missed but for the life of me I could not figure out what it was! I know this kind of thing only happens to me, I'm sure none of you EVER had these kind of problems....Next - The Light Dawns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dean_H. Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Hmm... don't know what could stop it from running, seems like you checked everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Don, PLEASEEEE don't make us wait too long!! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Starting a car in the dead of winter has always been a challenge to me. I run single weight oil in my cars, so the oil gets thick. I think the starter pulls so much out of the battery that there's not much left for a spark, but that might just be my thinking. Normally I'd say cold is not a problem in Texas, but it seems that "global warming" has resulted in some really cold weather in the South...........Did you at any time remove the distributor? Being way off on timing can make it appear you have spark and gas, but no start. On some cars it's easy to install 180 degrees off...One word of caution on the electric fuel pump, updraft carburetors can leak gas, backfire, and the result is a red and yellow hot occurence that can result in a pile of warped and melted metal (i.e. fire). An electric fuel pump can keep feeding that fire, even with engine off. Just make sure you have a good, convenient switch to shut off the electric fuel pump.The above happened on my Pierce, luckily I had a gallon of water to put out the engine fire (after two extinguishers didn't do it), I thought I'd shut off electric pump but didn't.....and when I fixed the car, I paid the money for a rebuilt mechanical pump and threw the electric one away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Ben,I'll be wrapping it all up shortly, probably tonight.David,I had considered the weather as a possible contributor to my problem but I think the lowest temps we had when I was attempting to start it were the mid 50s. It actually did have some effect for a reason I did NOT consider, as will be revealed in the last episode.I have had my mechanical pump rebuilt by Then and Now, the electric pump is there for priming and possibly for summertime vapor lock problems, we are afflicted with the ethanol disease here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Part Five and last, Mystery solvedAfter checking everything I could think of without success, I remembered a number of politically charged threads on this forum regarding ethanol blend gas. One of the problems mentioned repeatedly was the short storage life and the tendency for the fuel to lose its ability to "pop". My car has a 30 gallon tank and I had no idea how much gas was in there. (Non functional gas gauge) I did know most of the gas was older than six months! So, I drained the tank, carbs, and lines, there was only about 10 gallons in there. I put 5 gallons of fresh gas in the tank and tried starting it again - and it actually coughed a couple of times!! But it still did not start up. About this time I got an e-mail from my 37 V12 buddy who had first put me onto the Zenith conversion. His mechanic had just finished an engine rebuild including the carb conversion and he sent me a video of the engine running great. He knew my sad story and suggested I call his mechanic, which I did. He mentioned a number of things he had done, all of which I had also done, but one thing was different. He couldn't understand why my choke linkage worked backwards, he was able to hook it up just like original. I looked at my choke hookup again and besides looking pretty Rube Goldberg it was not allowing the choke plates to close all the way. I pulled off one of the carbs (Again) and realized I could change the lever action around to match that of the bellcrank and duplicate the action of the original carbs! I also moved both linkages to the outside for more clearance. I made up some link rods from aluminum and used the original ball socket ends to hook them up. This setup closed the choke plates all the way. I jumped in, hit the starter, and IT WAS RUNNING! I fiddled with the carb adjustments and got it to idle down nicely. The following weekend I backed it out of its longtime garage spot and actually drove it around the neighborhood. I added some K & N aftermarket air filters and I've been driving it farther this weekend, it really runs sweet. All's well that ends well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dean_H. Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Way to go! The original choke rods look better than the cables. And the air cleaners look pretty good too. Should be a reliable car for you now. Your hard work payed off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 OKAY, Don. Glad you found it. I bet that was a satisfying moment . And a good feeling to RIDE. Congratulations!! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Here is a video my son made yesterday of the car starting up: I hope this works... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 I took yesterday off as a "spring fever" day, the weather was in the mid 70s and sunny. I got both of my old cars out for rides. I drove the Cadillac down to the local Kwik Kar and had them do a State Inspection, first one since I bought the car. Now I can drive legally again since the car has regular Texas plates. It was about a 5 mile round trip and the car performed very well. On the way back I had a guy in a 73 Pontiac Grandville following me honking his horn. I finally pulled over, he got out to look at the car. He had seen me driving and had made a U-turn to come see it.One thing I need to get soon for this car: a side mirror! Attached is a proud pic of my inspection sticker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 22, 2018 Share Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) I found this old thread while looking for information on the Detroit lubricator model 51. I am finishing up the rebuild on my 32 v12 cad. Your Zenith-Bendix conversion may be the most practical and economical route for me to explore. Where would I find information on this conversion and model numbers of the Zenith- Bendix Carburetors. Alex D. Edited April 22, 2018 by Alex D. (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 23, 2018 Author Share Posted April 23, 2018 Back when I did it the Zenith conversion was the only game in town but it was far from a perfect solution. Today there is a company making exact reproduction new DL carburetors, they started doing this for Packards and have recently added the Cadillac V-12 and V-16 versions. Unfortunately I do not have the company name but I'm sure someone else will chime in. I'm sure they are not cheap but if these were available when I had the car I would have gladly spent the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bourque Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Those are beautiful carburetors and I’m sure the company went to a great expense to reproduce them. They have a price of $6950.00 for the pair. I would like to explore all options which would include new carbs, rebuilding what I have, and the Zenith conversion. Alex D 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 One more option might be the flipping of the manifolds side for side and using downdrafts. Easy, economical, and reversible when/if the situation demands. You will not be the first to have done so. Superior drivability, much easier tuning. I hope you are on the road soon, Alex. Please post pics when it is convenient.! - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex D. Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Carl Flipping the manifolds would not be possible since they are attached to the exhaust manifolds. The carburetors are actually attached to the exhaust manifolds and feed up through the heat exchange. I have seen log style manifolds fabricated with down draft Strombergs. This is also an option that I have been contemplating. I pulled this picture off the web of a 16. I can’t remember where, but I think it was in museum somewhere in the Midwest. The second picture is of the 12 that I am building. Alex 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 17 hours ago, Alex D. said: Those are beautiful carburetors and I’m sure the company went to a great expense to reproduce them. They have a price of $6950.00 for the pair. I would like to explore all options which would include new carbs, rebuilding what I have, and the Zenith conversion. Alex D That is a lot of money. You can try rebuilding yours, that's what I did first. The biggest problem with original DL's is their bowl construction using early 1930s pot metal - it had too much lead in the mix which causes it to degrade and distort with extreme age, meaning nothing fits or works as it should. Maybe you will be lucky and have a good pair, give it a try. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted April 24, 2018 Author Share Posted April 24, 2018 5 hours ago, Alex D. said: Carl Flipping the manifolds would not be possible since they are attached to the exhaust manifolds. The carburetors are actually attached to the exhaust manifolds and feed up through the heat exchange. I have seen log style manifolds fabricated with down draft Strombergs. This is also an option that I have been contemplating. I pulled this picture off the web of a 16. I can’t remember where, but I think it was in museum somewhere in the Midwest. The second picture is of the 12 that I am building. Alex When I had my car a guy named John Sweney in Houston had a 32 V-12 that he had modified with downdraft carbs mounted to the centers of the intakes and it ran very well. Do a search on here and the CLC forum, he may be able to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 Alex, are you a member of CLC.? If so, look up Ted Raines in California who is a V12 Cad authority. If you are not a member, send me a PM and I will get you in touch. Yes, I have seen downdraft conversion, but from your pics it is evidently not a simple flipping of the manifolds. I have Buick on my mind these days. In any case, reducing the "oven" heat from the stock set up will result in a better running engine. - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted April 24, 2018 Share Posted April 24, 2018 There is one of these in NZ with electronic fuel injection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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