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RansomEli

Any experiences with water-based paints yet?

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This topic might be more appropriate in the Technical forum, but I'm looking for your opinions, and experiences with the newer water-based paints.

They are definitely safer than urethanes, but how have the results looked? How does the finished product compare to lacquer or two-stage paints?

Do city and local enforcement departments look favorably upon water-based painting, or do they lump them in with general auto painting restrictions?

I guess the real problem is that you still need to seal the color coat with a urethane clear. Also, how long would the paint last?

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This topic might be more appropriate in the Technical forum, but I'm looking for your opinions, and experiences with the newer water-based paints.

They are definitely safer than urethanes, but how have the results looked? How does the finished product compare to lacquer or two-stage paints?

Do city and local enforcement departments look favorably upon water-based painting, or do they lump them in with general auto painting restrictions?

I guess the real problem is that you still need to seal the color coat with a urethane clear. Also, how long would the paint last?

Not to nit-pick but the term is water-born.

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Not to nit-pick but the term is water-born.

Not to nit-pick, but the term is water-BORNE.

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Don't let the term "Water Borne" confuse you. The only WB part of WB system is the colorcoat. Your primers and clearcoats are still 2K products. So with that said you can achieve the same desired finish with a WB basecoat. As far as the shops go, they will tell you color matches are much improved with WB but that doesn't come into play with our older cars.

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To answer your question a bit here is all I know. A seasoned certified painter friend has just returned from a water-borne hands on seminar and shared a bit.

The water-borne is coming whether we want it or not. The final goal of paint application is to take it completely out of the hands of hobby painters. I'm not saying it will happen but that is the goal. The multiple day class he attended put forth several different situations and produced finished vehicles when done.

His view is the finish product is fine. You are correct when you say it still requires a urethane clear coat at this time. The moment you use a urethane it immediately gives you have a health issue. He made mention of air line hoses needing to be a larger bore. Not sure why.

No your local enforcement is not going to say paint it in your backyard. Having a 100% compliant body shop is going to be tough enough.

We are very lucky to have a top notch paint supplier in our area. I'll address your question next time I'm at the counter talking to the pro's that really know.

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...The final goal of paint application is to take it completely out of the hands of hobby painters...

And how, exactly did you come to this conclusion? Paint technology evolves due to improved processes, materials, and yes, even laws and regulations. There's nothing about waterborne paints that prevents a hobbyist from using them and in fact, the use of water as the solvent is actually safer. Yes, you need to learn new application and curing techniques. Same thing goes for computer controlled cars. Get the right tools and training and there's no mystery.

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There is however a new EPA regulation that limits hobbyists to painting a maximum of 3 vehicles per year. If any remuneration is involved the car will by law need to be sprayed in an approved paint booth. EPA will track all paint sales to shops and individuals. My painters have been certified in water-born and there are few problems with the system. I suspect that within a few years you will need an EPA license to purchase any automiticve quality paints. The new regulations go into effect 1/1/11 for the most part and require quite a bit of paperwork on the part of shop owners. Our paint booth will need to be inspected and approved by a certified inspection agency yearly. All professional painters will need to be re certified on a regular basis. It will be illegal for a shop to paint ANY cars or parts of cars outside of a certified paint booth. EPA is especially concerned with paint strippers to the point where if we purchase a gallon of stripper at the hardware store we will need to file the receipt and document where that product was used FOREVER. Lots of little nit picky regulations as well. We will need to spend several thousand $ on stainless equipment, special filters, inspections etc. Water born paints require cleaner compressed air and greater air flow thru the booth than the products we use now but it isn't the end of the world. Even water born paints have a percentage of solvent in them. The technology just isn't there yet for fully water born paints. The dept of the EPA enforcing these regs is "non-funded" meaning their budget comes primarily from fines so you can bet they will be out there doing surprise inspectiona and levying fines.

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Posted (edited)

This is just nuts !

I am just fed-up with the EPA and all these new government regulations~~~

"Big Brother" now wants to watch everything we do~~~

Oil based paints are now on the EPA "Hit List"

Solvent based glues are being outlawed ~

The more regulations the EPA & Government impose~~~

The more power and control that they will have over you.

In the end this will all add up to costing everyone much more money to paint a car and costing the US workers more jobs !

This is but one more reason that every item you pick-up in a store is made in China, Mexico etc.

Are these new paint systems any better ?

Do they last longer ?

Are they easier and safer to apply ?

Are they easier to spot repair ?

In my opinion ~~~

NO !

Will our air be any cleaner with all this new EPA regulation ?

You decide !

Old Anique & Classic autos do not look correct with new base coat/ clear coat systems...

I only suspect the new paints will look worse on an old car~

I like an old auto painted in Laquer~~~

I used to do professional looking paint jobs myself in my garage shop with Laquer~~

It was easy to repair chips & blend later in laquer~~~

For some time we have not been able to buy any of the old paint systems~~~ I can no longer buy or use any of these new paint products myself anymore~~~

Two Part Polyurethane systems are also very toxic for the home restorer to use~~~

I have a friend with a small body shop and he is being hammered with these new regulations, paperwork, inspections, toxic waste removal fees, and higher operating costs, new equipment & paint-booth , exhaust systems & filters, etc. ~~~

And all the new nutty EPA & Government paperwork involved with running a small body shop business ~~~

He is rapidly being forced out of the body repair business !

Where & When will this EPA crazyness all end ?

Edited by Silverghost (see edit history)

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There is however a new EPA regulation that limits hobbyists to painting a maximum of 3 vehicles per year.

Which has nothing to do with waterborne paints or the ability of the hobbyist to use them, the topic of this thread. And the actual regulation is a restriction on the amount of paint that can be bought by a hobbyist, not the number of cars (and it's enough paint to paint two cars, not three, though how one calculates that when a Mini takes less paint than a truck is a mystery). I'm lucky if I can get to paint ONE car a year. More to the point, if you can't figure out how to get someone else to buy paint for you (thus avoiding the two-per-year limit), well, what can I say? You can buy enough for two, your spouse can buy enough for two, your children, your neighbors, etc, etc. Is this really a problem?

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Back in the early 90's my son had an 85 Ford Mustang. A drunk neighbor came down the street and drove through my yard and hit my son's car. My brother offered to repair the Mustang. At that time I remember him stating it was water borne paint. He didn't have any problem painting the car and this was around 20 years ago. I guess this is nothing new.........

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I've used waterborne finishes on wood for several years, and they are fine. The end result is as good or better than the old solvent finishes. On cars, however, I keep thinking of water causing rust, but I suppose that is not a problem. Eastwood has a new "Paint Your Own Car" DVD aimed at us amateurs which highlights the new finishes.

Phil

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There is however a new EPA regulation that limits hobbyists to painting a maximum of 3 vehicles per year. If any remuneration is involved the car will by law need to be sprayed in an approved paint booth. EPA will track all paint sales to shops and individuals. My painters have been certified in water-born and there are few problems with the system. I suspect that within a few years you will need an EPA license to purchase any automiticve quality paints. The new regulations go into effect 1/1/11 for the most part and require quite a bit of paperwork on the part of shop owners.

Am I to understand that if I wanted to go to the local NAPA store and buy a gallon of paint, this would be a problem after the first of the year?

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I'll read the other replies, but --ll will be frozen over long before you see me using it on an automobile or motorcycle.

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:mad:Silverghoast and Restorer are both right on the money. The EPA will put the do it your selfer out of bussness. Look what happened to r12 and your a/c systems. Its only a matter of time and the smaller shops will close.

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R-12 was a change for everyone in this country. You can still buy R-134a. Similar type of change, but not as drastic as the paint issue.

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Where & When will this EPA crazyness all end ?

It will NEVER end! Printing businesses are facing the same crap. There are so many regulations in this country, it's very hard to start any business.

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Am I to understand that if I wanted to go to the local NAPA store and buy a gallon of paint, this would be a problem after the first of the year?

There will be no problem buying current paints. The EPA has proposed this 3 car rule... it has not been implemented as of yet. It would be a logistical nightmare to implement this rule. I'm still waiting to hear how they plan on doing it. :rolleyes:

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The 3 car rule applies to hobbyists. A shop license doesn't apply.

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Posted (edited)

Silverghost,

Great questions. I have been earning a living in automotive finishes for over 20 years. Let's see if we can clear the air ;)

Are these new paint systems any better ?

Yes Water Borne basecoat matches todays car colors better

Do they last longer ?

Once applied WB last just as long as any other basecoat. Water borne does NOT last as long on the shelf though. Generally about a 2 yr shelf life.

Are they easier and safer to apply ?

Yes once you are past the learning curve it is easier to apply and much safer to work with.

Are they easier to spot repair ?

Very much so. Super easy to spot repair. Worse case senirio you can just wipe the basecoat off and start over. It's waterbase.

Will our air be any cleaner with all this new EPA regulation ?

Standard solvent basecoats used today require the use of a lot of solvent to thin the paint to spray. The majority of this solvent ends up in the air. Waterbase paint eliminates all of this solvent going into the air.

I like an old auto painted in Laquer~~~

Are we talking about nitrocellulose or acrylic laquer? Nitro was OEM pre mid 1950's. Nitro hasn't been readily available since the early 70's.

It was easy to repair chips & blend later in laquer~~~

Sure, if you were certain of the finish but if you weren't and you had an enamel job under it. Oh Boy that was fun... Remember jug sealer?

For some time we have not been able to buy any of the old paint systems~~~ I can no longer buy or use any of these new paint products myself anymore~~~

PPG is still making Acrylic lacquer and lacquer primers are still sold too. Heck you can still get Nitro stan red lead putty and black rubbing and white polishing compounds.

Two Part Polyurethane systems are also very toxic for the home restorer to use~~~

Very true

Edited by South_paw (see edit history)

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Be careful, Lou. Nobody's happy here unless the earth is being led to hell by evil forces beyond all understanding!:)

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And don't worry about the American farmer as long as a hot plate and Rustoleum are around he or she will be good!

Bless the American farmer.

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Thanks for all the information. Sounds like the safest and best paint for the 'home' restorer is still acrylic lacquer. If not acrylic, then nitrocellulose. I'd better order a gallon or two of black today, just to be safe.

You know, I may just end up restoring my 1908 REO by painting it the old way, with a brush. Wouldn't that be a hoot!

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