Custom bodied Packards

[Dave Mitchell]

I will add a photo of a car that I owned for 20 years - a 41 Bohman & Schwartz limo which made me appreciate custom cars even more.

[Dave Mitchell]

For Brad, a couple of Packard race cars - the 904 and 299 - "custom bodies" might be a stretch, but they are boat tails...

[Dave Mitchell]

The monoblock straight 12 which must have been either a Dietrich or "Packard custom body" and a 31 Rollston

Edited December 29, 2010 by Dave Mitchell (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

Oops - photos here

[keiser31]

Man, that straight 12 must have been hard to handle!

[Owen_Dyneto]

The monobloc Twelve body has always been attributed to Dietrich. If you have access to it, The Packard Cormorant #110 (Spring, 2003) is almost completely devoted to it, and one article gives comparative photos and measurements of it's body with the 745 Dietrich convertible victoria body (style 1711). Also one of the articles contains a lovely detailed underhood photo and many excerpts from Col. Vincent's diary discussing the building and testing of the car. Copyright issues prohibit me from posting any of that material, but back issues are available from PAC. These articles constitute what I believe is the most complete and definitive story of this vehicle.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Owen_Dyneto
editing word choice (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

I've posted photos of this car so many times, I hesitated to do so again. It's the ex-George Jepson car, currntly Don Peterson. Custom by Packard, built in the same shop as the LeBarons of 1934 I think. I believe there is a connection between the 734 Speedsters and the monobloc 12, in that they were able to get just as much horsepower from the modified eight as the 12 got. Many of the features they used in the 12 made it over to the modified eight that they put into the speedsters.

[Dave Mitchell]

Thanks for posting the 734 West, it is a great car and always good to see it. Funny I never think of it as the Jepson car, even though I met George, I still think of it as Don's. Hope he's doing well, say hi for me.

[West Peterson]

Perhaps now that he's owned it for 36 years, much longer than George's ownership, perhaps soon it can be called the Don Peterson car.

[jbbuick22]

Tom Mix's 734 touring went to the mid west. Does anybody know what its current state is now? It was pretty much orig. except for the carb.

Around 2001 Tom had a custom body 120 conv built in europe, as part of the restoration we added overdrive, Tom wanted overdrive in all his cars. I don't have a picture of it.

JB

[Guest Casper Friedrich]

The 1931 Deluxe 8 Waterhouse in the second post belonged to the American Ambassador in Sweden. There is a picuture of this car in Björn-Eric Lindh's Svenska Bilbilder 1890-1960 (Sorry's I haven't got a copy of it) The chauffeur stands beside it outside of Nordiska Kompaniet, Stockholm's foremost departement store.

Latter I found this:

Car owners in Stockholm 1935:

A 390 Packard 120 horsepower American ambassador L.A.Steinhardt

http://www.rrec.se/bulletin/2002%20Nr%203.pdf

Notice that only more exclusive or rare marques are included

Edited April 6, 2011 by Casper Friedrich (see edit history)

[alsancle]

The proportions of the monobloc car remind me greatly of S & SS Mercedes. Dave, I think we've talked before about Jan Melin before and I completely agree. He's one of the great automotive historians.

[alsancle]

I assume everyone here follows COACHBUILD.com ? If not you should. Here is what they have for Packard Waterhouse:

[Owen_Dyneto]

Looks like the same car, same venue, same date as in post #12 of this thread. Same car alongside? Venue was the PAC National in Ashville, NC.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Though "Body by Packard", here's an old photo taken at an early CCCA Grand Classic in New Jersey of 3 734 speedsters. George Jepson's phaeton flanked by (I believe) Kanter's and Vaccaro's roadsters. Photographer unknown at this point in time.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Another. I've just got it identified as a 901, no other info. Very teutonic, maybe a Graber, or perhaps Glaser? Anyone got any info on this one? Source of photo unknown.

[Owen_Dyneto]

A couple more, taken at the Redding CT (the old Ridgefield CT show) show in 2010. The Draggone Rollston (?) which I believe was the centerpiece of the Packard NYC auto show display that year, and a 1934 Twelve victoria by Dietrich. PHotos by this writer.

[Dave Mitchell]

I like the 901 and would have to agree, Graber or Glaser are both possible. I still like that 4 door conv Graber you posted too - is that car in Europe or the US?

Nice photo of the 3 734s.

[edinmass]

Just what a Packard thread needs...... comments from a Pierce guy. My father had more than 2 dozen pre war Packard's, and had fuel stamps during the war to run a 12! Anyway, my comments about custom bodied cars for the 34 LaBaron coupe that Jerry Moore sold. I thought the fit and finish were poor, and for LaBaron I thought the construction on that particular car was below their standards. Tires were too small and did not fit the overall look of the car. just my 2 cents. I sure would like a 32 Twinsix for my garage. My best, Ed

Photos of Packard's are from a private west coast collection

[edinmass]

Sorry about the Caddy shot.... I tried to edit it out and had no luck. Ed

[keiser31]

Sorry about the Caddy shot.... I tried to edit it out and had no luck. Ed

If you go to edit the post, you can delete a photo in the "download" box...just scroll down when you go to "manage attachments".

[Dave Mitchell]

The Cad is welcome too, great car! I like the Bohman & Schwartz town car too. Who is the coachbuilder of the open car? Derham?

[Dave Mitchell]

Could the car behind the 31 be the 40 Bohman & Schwartz sedan?

[Owen_Dyneto]

Dave, here's some additional photos of the 34 1102 Graber convertible sedan that you expressed an interest in. I still have no recollection of where I got the photos from or any other details about the car, but it sure is interesting.

In post #142, is the 34 Twelve formal the former Jeanette MacDonald car?

Edited January 1, 2011 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history)

[Owen_Dyneto]

Thus far we've focused just on the prewar Packard customs and generally the postwar customs tend to be just mildly reworked factory bodies by the likes of Henney & Derham, but here's a pair that were far more ambitious. Two 47 Super Clippers, both by Derham, one for the King of Lebanon and one for the Sheik of Kuwait. One of the two survives though I forget at the moment just which one. These photos from the Derham archives which are packed with interesting details about these vehicles.

[vintageride]

It is great to see a thread like this.

I would like to hear more about Maurice Proux. Simple and elegant upright style. Mr. Proux had his own carroserrie in Paris and participated in concours there from 1928 through 1933.

Proux was mentioned in "Packard the Pride" by JM Fenster and in the Dennis Adler book about Packard. The Proux featured in both books was a 1930 745 Victoria featuring double rear spares.

Hopefully someone has a photo, some background information, or other references to share regarding Maurice Proux coachbuilt Packards.

Vintageride

[Dave Mitchell]

Proux is one that I have only seen the 745 you mentioned in those books and I am not sure where that car is now. I think I have some drawings by Proux, but I don't know if they were built. It will take some looking for me to come up with those though. I hope someone else can help. Steve Snyder has a 745 Letourner & Marchand, another seldom seen French coachbuilder, especially on Packard chassis. I have photos of that somewhere too.

[Dave Mitchell]

The Derham Clippers are really interesting. I knew about them, but hadn't looked at these photos for a long time. I can see clearly that the guys who did these windshields did the 38 that we are working on now.

That 4 door Graber is a very nice design. I like it a lot.

That sure looks like the MacDonald car to me. Chris Bohman told me about when they built that car - the body had been on a Cord chassis (Murphy body), but was moved to the Packard 12 when she asked that B & S do that. They told her it would be easier to build a new body due to the extensive modifications required, but she told them to proceed. The result is quite nice I think.

[Dave Mitchell]

Here is a 32 Murphy roadster - does anyone know if this car was built? I think that Strother MacMinn had the original drawing.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Somewhere I have a write up on the resoration of the 745 Letourner & Marchand the Snyder's have, I believe it took years but what is interesting is the differences they found from one side of the vehicle to the other. I would assume this is the case with these hand built cars, but it would be interesting to hear what is typically found from anyone who has restored such a one off car in terms of restoration challenges.

The thread continues to be most enjoyable/informative, guys.

[Owen_Dyneto]

I don't know about that 9th series Murphy roadster, but Steve Babinsky has a very original 2nd series Eight (236) disappearing top roadster by Murphy. You'd think for all the times I've been there I'd have a couple of photos, but don't. I hope to be down to Steve's this week and be sure to take some.

[Packardbarry]

The Thompson special

:confused:So who is THOMPSON and was this speedster just built for fun?

Ive seen this photo before and thought maybe a movie car, being the house looks Hollywood, and the driver looks like a chauffeur maybe from a movie studio.

[Dave Mitchell]

Thompson in this case refers to Thompson Products - manufacturers of OEM engine and chassis parts for both autos and aircraft. They were headquartered in Cleveland I think, but I am not sure where the photos were taken. Someplace I have more photos taken then and I think that the driver is in military uniform. I think that the idea was to build a special fast car to show off the quality of their components, like lightweight pistons. Maybe an executive wanted a fast, special car too. They also did air race and plane sponsorship etc.

[Dave Mitchell]

I remember seeing the 236 Murphy roadster at Hershey a long time ago when Mark Smith had it for sale. Great car. Take lots of photos when you are at Steve's if possible. He has great cars and does very nice work.

[Dave Mitchell]

Steve, I have worked on three custom bodied one off Packards and Terry who works with me has worked on a lot of custom cars in the last 50 years, and I can tell you that things can be different from side to side. It could have been different teams of guys building each side. They built the basic wood frame and then made the doors to fit it. Sometimes things can be a bit crude, maybe parts that don't show were done by the guys with less skill or experience - they were doing these to make money after all - on the Derham, the work done to reshape and section the dash was undetectible when it was painted, but the work to bend the rear fender splash shields wasn't exactly Pebble Beach quality - decent, but not like the dash. I feel that the way to restore it is to put it back like it was and not gloss everything over. If the welds and hammer marks were not smoothed out originally, they shouldn't be to make the concours crowd happy. I hate seeing cars that look like they have been dipped in plastic.

I think both Bohman & Schwartz and Derham did excellent work and built high quality bodies, but there are still small differences from one side to the other. I asked Chris Bohman if they had drawings to work from and he said they just had basic body outlines on chalk boards that came down from the cieling on chain lifts. The workers knew how to build the body, so no detailed drawings were required. I guess the CAD/CAM drawings were in thier heads.

Of the cars I have worked on, the Swedish Norrmalm body is the best and most ruggedly built. I also met a man who worked on that car and he told me that the customer never asked the price of the bodies that he ordered - unlike any other customer - he told them what he wanted and went over the design, and told them to build it. He paid his bill without complaint and when he picked up the car he was so happy he gave everyone who worked there a tip. There were over 40 men there and this guy told me that his tip was equivilent to 2 weeks wages. He had only done the wiring and went for the first test drive with the buyer's son. He said this was typical of this client and no other - most asked for a price, then added things and expected the car for the first price - but they did their best work for this man. Gee I wonder why?

[Guest Silverghost]

I believe the famous Thompson Trophy awarded at the Thompson Trophy Race one of several legs of the National Air Races an unlimited air race pilon event heald at around 50 foot in altitude. The trophy was in fact donated by Mr. Charles E. Thompson who also owned the company mentioned above ~~~Thompson Products Corp (later to become TRW ).

Mr Thompson sponsored the annual race and the trophy to spur fast unlimited horsepower aircraft development.

The man in uniform seated in the "Thompson Special" could in fact be one of his famous Thmopson Trophy Air Race & Air Force/ Army Air Corps pilots ; or possibly a Thompson Trophy Race winner.

Could this in fact be Jimmy Doolittle who won the Thompson Trophy Air Race in 1932 ?

Could Charles E. Thompson have also awarded this "Thompson Special" Packard auto to the Air Race winner along with the famous Thompson Trophy ?

Does this fantastic auto still exist somewhere ?

We need more resarch here !

Edited January 3, 2011 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

The uniform looks like Army/Army Air Corps to me - the hat for sure has the US insignia (my dad, who flew P 47s, would say he doesn't have enough crush on his hat) and he has pilot's wings. The plates are 1929, and look like California, but I can't make the state out for sure. Dad has his Army Air Corps uniform from WWII and it is slightly different, but the pilot's uniform in 29 might have been a little different.

[Owen_Dyneto]

Actually, was it not the Thompson who later became part of Thompson-Ramo Wooldridge (aka TRW) and now part of Northrup Grumman?

[Dave Mitchell]

I think that is correct - they did become TRW. I used to be able to get steel strut aluminum pistons for Packards from them, but the US factory was closed.

[alsancle]

I think differences were common on the hand built bodies. When my dad was restoring his 540k, the left door was 1 inch shorter then the right door. He only found this out when he tried to put the door glass in and got it backwards.