Moved to Class 04B

[DAVE A]

I like the idea of a definition for the class instead of specific brands of vehicles. The question is how do you do it without becoming too exclusive?? If we say (just thinking out loud) 90 inch wheel base, less than 900 cc, less than 35 HP, we end up carving up a number of marques into different classes. Is that better than than putting down a list of brands???

[Guest Stonefish]

Marques are carved up all over an AACA show field....

I honestly like the cars in the production classes...people can walk a row and flash back to a particular era and see what cars were available at the time.

[DAVE A]

Ok Ron, I'm still buying, but I always believe in offering a suggestion for a solution that is workable for the majority. Steve says that the powers that be are watching, so, let's take a stab at it. I'm no expert on VW's so your input is needed. Starting out, there doesn't seem to be a problem with the pre wars as there are so few pre war small cars. Whatever specs we decide for post wars for basics will apply for 04-A. Choclatetown suggests Wheelbase and HP as dividers, that makes sense. So 04-B post war, 30 Hp and under, 85 in wheel base and under. 04-C 30 HP and under over 85 in wheel base, 04-D over 30 HP under 85 in wheel base.

[Belvedere]

Again, I have nothing invested, but here's a thought. I like the thinking of HP v. wheelbase, so how about under 30HP w/ wheelbase under 85" as the determining factor. Then 04A - Pre-war, 04B- Post-war to maybe 1955, 04C - 1956 to 1965, 04D - 1966 to 1975, etc. Right now, I can't see what a '49 Crosley (for example) has in common w/ an '80 Rabbit. The factory build-quality of those two eras is vastly different in these 2 examples.

[DAVE A]

loves older Plymouths,

Your idea has merit, however then we lose the small displacement longer wheel base VW's , Crosleys, Nash, etc. besides, under the other option, the Rabbit and Crosley would already be seperated by HP (and wheel base I think).

Edited October 17, 2011 by DAVE A (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

To my thinking a '49 Crosley has more in common with an '80 Rabbit than it does with a '59 Cadillac. Similar target audiences when new maybe?

[Belvedere]

Dave, I just picked-up on your examples of HP/wheelbase. I agree, numbers designation is better than a list of eligible models. My point was a break-down by years much like is done w/ Mustangs, Commercial, and even class 27.

[DAVE A]

I understand your point on the years, I'm just not sure it is workable. How about using the years as you suggested and a qualifier of under 85 inch wheelbase OR under 35 hp?? I would think we need to tweak the years for significant changes in models. For example, the class right now for 04-A cuts off at 1941. Crosleys were the same through 1942. The change is 1946. I'd also look at significant model changes of VW along with the years of other marques that will be in this group like BMW (Isetta), Nash Metropolitan, Morris, Renault, etc. So , you folks that have these models, please chime in here!!

[Guest Siegfried]

There's a Gov't slogan like that, isn't there?

Sorry,Jim, had to pull the slogan...let's keep this to car politics! Heaven knows that you guys have enough material for us to devour. Plus: One thing guys, the class, like it or not was conceived by discussions with people who owned small cars. Not everyone thinks alike. Originally the class was going to be about HP and/or wheelbase, etc. but we found there was not a unanimous agreement even by the micro car community. Jim, Ron and the rest of you have valid points and they will get to our committee. Jim has already sent off a letter. Thanks for the constructive stuff now make my job easier and play nice. Don

Edited October 17, 2011 by Steve Moskowitz (see edit history)

[nearchoclatetown]

Again, I have nothing invested, but here's a thought. I like the thinking of HP v. wheelbase, so how about under 30HP w/ wheelbase under 85" as the determining factor. Then 04A - Pre-war, 04B- Post-war to maybe 1955, 04C - 1956 to 1965, 04D - 1966 to 1975, etc. Right now, I can't see what a '49 Crosley (for example) has in common w/ an '80 Rabbit. The factory build-quality of those two eras is vastly different in these 2 examples.

Not a bad way to go LOP. If VW is supposed to be in this class I'm thinking less then 98 inch WB, and less then 60 HP, Euro Econosedan, maybe Jap too, NO commercials. So Westys and window vans YES, panels or pickups NO.Your idea would be better for a microcar class. Maybe there should be one of those too?? As for your age cuts, I can't imagine why anyone would want to show a car newer then '70.

[Guest Stonefish]

We show cars newer than '70...because....wait for it, wait for it....WE CAN!

[Guest volxy]

I understand the logic of the class but not the placement of certain cars in this class... A vw rabbit and not a pontiac fiero...there even smaller,I walked the field to see the other cars and and there were other examples that should have been considerd..?? I think they should have a class for air cooled vw's type 1,2,3,4 just like t-birds,corvettes,mustangs...I know we all have our own ideas on what we would like to see,hopefuly we can all get our input to where it counts the most...

[Guest Siegfried]

Sorry,Jim, had to pull the slogan...let's keep this to car politics! Heaven knows that you guys have enough material for us to devour. Plus: One thing guys, the class, like it or not was conceived by discussions with people who owned small cars. Not everyone thinks alike. Originally the class was going to be about HP and/or wheelbase, etc. but we found there was not a unanimous agreement even by the micro car community. Jim, Ron and the rest of you have valid points and they will get to our committee. Jim has already sent off a letter. Thanks for the constructive stuff now make my job easier and play nice. Don

Yes, you are correct this is about cars, and not about our gov't. Accept my apologies? <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

I understand about, and have no argument about why the class was formed. Actually like it (why? because now I can apply my knowledge to cars in one class that I really know).

I know the new class just needs a better definition, and classifications of the vehicles. As I have said, let’s get together on this. Dave A, Stonefish, Nearchocolatetown, CharlieR, Stock_Steve?, the VP of Class Judging, and others at the AACA car judging forefront. This can be resolved. Here's an idea, 'Most of us that I mentioned are from central Pa. so let’s have a sit-down at AACA headquarters to discuss the issue?' If not at Hershey then, maybe Annual Meeting in 2012 at Philly?<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

[Bill Clark]

I think Mets probably belong in this class, but I doubt that anything much bigger, ie, longer than 85 inch wheelbase or greater than 55 HP belongs here. Mets belong in this class because its just not fair to park a Met in class 27B and have some of them big beauties become invisible while everyone drools over the Met. Mets are 85 inch wheelbase. The HP ranges from 42 in the early 1200 cc cars to 55 in the later cars with the big bores (90 ci or 1489cc) and high compression, 8.3 to 1. The Micro Car Club simply says less than 500 cc is a micro car and between 500cc and 1500cc is a mini car, but then they add a list. My earlier post around last December gives a link to a list of cars that these definitions include. Its a huge list. Maybe we say anything 85 inch wheelbase or less that is not in one of the other classes. Since the intent is to put funky little cars in their own class, why not just say Class 04 - Funky little cars.

Bill

[DAVE A]

. Since the intent is to put funky little cars in their own class, why not just say Class 04 - Funky little cars.

Bill

Bill;

I think this is exactly where they ended up with "small cars". There are so many opinions as to what a "small car" is that they just ended up drawing up a list and saying this is the class. I was attempting to get everyone to begin with comments on where the lines should be drawn to specifically define the class since that seemed to be where the dissention is. I am ok with the class as it is (I'd like to see the year for 04-A changed but I can live with that...very few 1942 cars), but compared to other Marques, Crosley is a small part.

I would be flattered to be a part of any meeting to work on this class if those in charge would want me there. I can attend Philadelphia or go to Hershey, neither are far away for me. I still think we could hammer out a lot of the details among us and try to get a consensus to present to the decision makers by working here on line .

Edited October 18, 2011 by DAVE A (see edit history)

[Guest Stonefish]

Good discussions going on now...

Just curious...

Was the list made up of known cars that have been shown at an AACA event...or were they just randomly picked? I mean...is there someone showing a Subaru 360 within AACA?

I ask because it seems the major "players" on the "list" as of now...are VW, Crosely, Mets & Bantams.

[R W Burgess]

YES!

From the New Bern Grand National- 2010!

[R W Burgess]

Ok, so it's a Honda, but you can see where there is a place for these cars on an AACA show field near you!

[DAVE A]

Just curious...

Was the list made up of known cars that have been shown at an AACA event...or were they just randomly picked? I mean...is there someone showing a Subaru 360 within AACA?

I ask because it seems the major "players" on the "list" as of now...are VW, Crosely, Mets & Bantams.

Good question Ron, however, I think the AACA needs to plan for every possibility, not just those of us who are interested right now. I think when it comes to sheer numbers, the VW people are far and away the majority (I am sure there are years of Beetles where the production was higher than the whole run of Crosleys). Next would have to be the Mets and then the Bantams. I know of only a handful or so of Crosleys on the AACA list currently, but that is something I want to try to expand, which is why this issue is so important to me.

I think a list of vehicles that might fit the categeory is a good starting point, but I think that is what was done to begin with. Can you think of any potential "small car" that isn't on the current list of 04??

[Guest Stonefish]

I just thought it was intersting that they pulled the Subaru 360 out of the entire Subaru marque. One would think, using the same train of thought that they lumped VW into the class...you would think the entire Subaru marque would have been lumped too (remember, I don't like lumping). So, I was just wondering if the list was created by just scanning down the "master list" of cars currently shown on AACA show fields.

Without making a formula or criteria...there are a hundreds of potential cars that could be just thrown onto a list...and everyone's list of "small cars" would be different.

[Guest Stonefish]

@Wayne....funny you bring up that particular Honda. As of now...it wouldn't be in the small car class. That is a Honda Civic, not specified on the list. What is even more intereting...the Honda S500/S600 are. If I had one of those...I would have thought that the sports car class would be for me?

What do you think?

Edited October 18, 2011 by Stonefish (see edit history)

[DAVE A]

Without making a formula or criteria...there are a hundreds of potential cars that could be just thrown onto a list...and everyone's list of "small cars" would be different.

Ok, Like I said, I'm still buying. So how about a proposal from the VW point of view for criteria and/or years ? From that and the point of view from the Mets and Bantams (and Crosleys and others) maybe we can come up with something workable to present to the judging folks.

[Shop Rat]

.....Ok, Like I said, I'm still buying. So how about a proposal from the VW point of view for criteria and/or years ? From that and the point of view from the Mets and Bantams (and Crosleys and others) maybe we can come up with something workable to present to the judging folks.

Just my opinion, but the suggestion(s) should come from those involved. AACA members only and only those with a true vested interest in the class.

[Guest Stonefish]

My proposal...if it ain't broke, don't fix it....send me back to the production years:)

If it comes down to formulas: A wheelbase + B horsepower = small car class "C" AND X wheelbase + Z horsepower = small car Class "Z"....

You're going to make a lot of work for someone to "watch dog" registration to ensure someone is going into the right class. Otherwise...you'll have another cluster on your hands come show day.

What surprises me further is that fact that the AACA wants to add more classes in the first place. Doesn't more classes increase the need for more judges? Always seems to be an out cry that judges are needed.

[DAVE A]

Just my opinion, but the suggestion(s) should come from those involved. AACA members only and only those with a true vested interest in the class.

Susan,

I see your point and obviously that's who will make the decisions, but by leaving it open to everyone who wants to contribute, don't you think it will spark more interest in the AACA by people who are not presently members and may decide to become one??? While we are certainly a large portion of the hobby, we are not the ONLY people in the hobby. I am president of the Crosley Automobile Club, about 1,000 members nationwide. I would venture that less than 10% are AACA members. I am sure that percentage would be representative of a lot of marque clubs. By trying to get the interest and contributions of more of those folks in shaping this new class, maybe we can get a few more interested in the club. It certainly can't hurt and that "outside" point of view just may point out a few things that will help us make this class better.

[Jim Bollman]

Bill Clark mentioned The Micro Car Club. If I remember correctly the AACA classes that are for the Classics use the Classic Car Club of America's definitions of what a Classic is. Maybe Class 4 should use a similar guide line (at least as a starting point). Let those that specialize in small cars do the hard work.

[Bill Clark]

Here's the list of cars less than 1000cc. There would still be some work to define the cars from 1000cc to 1500cc unless someone finds a similar list.

Bill

[Shop Rat]

Susan,

I see your point and obviously that's who will make the decisions, but by leaving it open to everyone who wants to contribute, don't you think it will spark more interest in the AACA by people who are not presently members and may decide to become one??? While we are certainly a large portion of the hobby, we are not the ONLY people in the hobby. I am president of the Crosley Automobile Club, about 1,000 members nationwide. I would venture that less than 10% are AACA members. I am sure that percentage would be representative of a lot of marque clubs. By trying to get the interest and contributions of more of those folks in shaping this new class, maybe we can get a few more interested in the club. It certainly can't hurt and that "outside" point of view just may point out a few things that will help us make this class better.

Dave,

I just feel that when it comes to actual AACA business, like rules/guidelines and things like changing things about classes, etc. the folks that pay dues to the national AACA should be the ones to help shape the future of the AACA.

That is not to say that others shouldn't express their opinions as they might have some valid input as far as information. But the names on the letter being submitted for consideration of changes should be current AACA members.

[charlier]

Have been following this discussion for a while now. As an owner of a few Volkswagens, an AACA Member and a member of the current 04B Class I think it is time for me to add my .02.

The following is some Volkswagen Technical Specifications taken from actual factory documents:

WB = Wheelbase in inches, L = Length in inches, W = Width in inches, HP = Horsepower and CCs.

When there are multiple entries for these specs that indicates more than one possible engine for the named model or in the case of dimensions changes to those dimensions over time for that same model.

VW Bus ---- L = 169.3" to 179.5" // W = 67.7'to 72.6" // WB = 94.5" to 96.8" // HP = 36 (1192cc) or 57 (1584cc) or 67 (1970cc) or 82 (1913cc)

VW Beetle ---- L = 158.6" to 160" // W = 60.5" to 62.4" // WB = 70.5" to 95.3" // HP = 36 (1192cc) or 48 ( or 53

VW Rabbit ----- L = 155.3" // W = 63.4" // WB = 94.5" // HP = 48 (1471cc) or 62 (1457cc) or 78 (1588cc)

VW Pickup (1980-84) ----- L = 174.6" // W = 64.4" // WB = 103.3" // HP = 52 (1588cc) or 78 (1715cc)

VW GTI 16V (1987-92) ----- L = 158.0" // W = 66.1" // WB = 97.3" // HP = 123 (1780cc) or 134

This is just a very SMALL sampling of the Technical Specs for Volkswagens that fall under the current definition of this class.

Depending on how this class is actually defined some of these vehicles may or may not belong in this class.

This list also can be used to illustrate that using only horsepower or engine size (cc) and

not taking into account physical dimensions can lead to a misleading, confusing or inaccurate definition of "Small".

Dave A. how about posting up these same Specs L/W/WB/HP for some of the Crosley models? Maybe owners of some of the other cars on this list could do the same?

Some other personal thoughts on this class, etc.

Personally, I believe creating a new class or classes should be done with great care. Creating a new class is a VERY Slippery Slope for the organization tasked with creating, maintaining, supporting and judging that class. As more and more classes continue to be justified and created that will place more of a challenge, burden, etc. to manage, judge, fund/support them. Just look how the original two classes (04A& have easily expanded into 4 or 6 classes just in the course of this discussion.

When one compares some of the Specs listed above for VWs one has to wonder how most, is not all of those vehicles can/could even loosely fit a definition of "Small Car" in the same sense as say the dimensions of a Bantam, Isetta, Crosley or any other Micro Car would? My goodness, just the Wheelbase of my VW Rabbit is nearly 3 FEET longer than the total length of an BMW Isetta 300.

The total length of my Rabbit is over 1.5 TIMES as long as the total length of an Isetta 300. The dimensions of the VW Bus and my 1981 VW Pickup make for an even larger disparity when it comes to physical size.

Next let's look at horsepower. The horsepower of my 1987 VW GTI 16V is roughly DOUBLE that of my VW Rabbit (62hp vs 123hp).

When it comes to some other vehicles on the small car list that horsepower difference can be 10 or more times as much when comparing my GTI 16V to say a Vespa. The engine in my VW Rabbit is 1457cc.

While some might consider that a somewhat small engine the physical size of the Rabbit might suggest that it is not exactly "Small" especially when compared to the physical size of a Bantam, Isetta, Crosley or any other Micro Car.

I think Jim Bollman has the right idea when he posted earlier in this thread:

Bill Clark mentioned The Micro Car Club. Maybe Class 4 should use a similar guide line (at least as a starting point). Let those that specialize in small cars do the hard work.

- Consider using the definition of a Micro Car as defined here The Vintage Microcar Club Membership Page

- Consider moving all the vehicles on the current list for Classes 04A&B that do not fit the definition listed above back to the production Classes that they came from

- Consider renaming Classes 04A&B "Micro Car Class".

If a meeting is to be held at the AACA Offices in Hershey concerning this class I would gladly attend if invited.

Sorry for the LONG post but I am playing catch up on this topic.

[DAVE A]

The Microcar guidelines would exclude the VW's, Nash Metros, and Hondas among others. It would add Messerschmidt, Gogomobile, and NSU among others. Based on that would there be enough participation left to have a class?? (and should that be a factor here, in my opinion it is not given my understanding for the reason for the class.)

Charlier, thank you for giving the stats on some VW's Generally for Crosley (and perhaps Jim can provide more complete information) L-138-144" W- 48" (track 42") WB 80-85" (except FOR 60" I think) HP 12 -13.5 pre war 26.5 post war 750cc post war.

[Guest Stonefish]

I hope VW was not thrown into this class to increase the numbers of potential participants, in order to justify the class.

Someone lobbied for this class…it was either a particular group of "small car" owners (and from what it seems, it wasn't the VW population)

Or

It was some "big car" owners, with a some clout that wanted the "small" cars gone.

If it was the "big car" folks…looks as if we'll have to sort out some sort of small car class. If it was a specific group of small car owners…let them have their small car class, but don't drag other marques into it just to fluff the numbers.

Volxy brings up the Pontiac Fiero….it was shown in class 27P….I was looking for it's result with the sports cars?? :confused:

A Honda S500/S600 goes in the "small car" class and NOT with the sports cars…Pontiac Fiero is in with the production class and NOT with the sports cars or "small cars" classes…my head hurts!:eek:

Fiero = Sports Car, Production Car or Small Car ?

Honda S500 = Small Car or Sports Car?

VW Ghia = Production Car, Sports Car or Small Car?

[Guest Siegfried]

Ok, so it's a Honda, but you can see where there is a place for these cars on an AACA show field near you!

Wayne, Superb that a Hondo Civic was at Grand National! There is a place for all cars, trucks, cycles, etc in the AACA. I remember in the late 80tys when only 3 to 4 VW's showed up at Hershey. Now look at how many there are. Years back I heard comments about the VW's at AACA national meets, and some were not pleasant. Basically ignorant! I also noted the crowds that gathered around Joe Alackness' '50ty Cabriolet, and the Mierz's '54 Cabriolet to name a few. Lots of stories being told about previous ownership of VW's, and how much they are missed.

I personally I the idea of a small car class. What is there now is a start, and it just needs some fine tuning.

[Guest Siegfried]

CharleR pointed out wheelbases, etc for Volkswagens in a recent post. I'm going to add just a bit to it.

A Volkswagen Jetta is built on the same chassis as a Volkswagen Rabbit/Golf. All VW did was to add a trunk to create a Jetta. Of course the rear window, quarters, etc were changed. Doubt my word? Then get out there, and left up the floor covering in 'ANY' Jetta and you'll see where the trunk was added/created behind the spare tire insert. the VW Rabbit arrived in the USA to replace the Bug in either 1976, or 1977. And the Jetta arrived in either 1980, or 1981. Body parts from the rear doors forward are identical between the rabbits, and Jetta's. As are all interior parts, and mechanical parts. Now hot question of the day. Wheelbase, and horsepower make a Jetta a small car (they are IDENTICAL to the Rabbit/Golf), but by Volkswagen's definition the Jettta is a mid-size car.

The same wheelbase appears on a Karmann Ghia just like the Bug. However, a Karmann Ghia is wider because Karmann altered the bug chassis. Additionally, the body on a Karmann Ghia is longer than the bug.

Other small coachbuilt Volkswagen powered cars that I mentioned in a previous response were very limited production, and they were not authorized by VWAG.

Take a look in a judging manual at the definitions for limited production classes. Using this as a guideline come up with a definition for Class 4A/B.

[Jim Bollman]

Crosley Tread (center to center) is 40" Not sure if tread and track are the same thing. FarmORoad has a 65" WB and can be as short as 96" total length depending on which bed is used. The rest of Dave's number look about right.

It would be nice to know the reasons for developing class 4. Seems like a lot of people want to be in production class. Since cars are not competing with each other accept for being with in 10 points of highest car, not sure why an owner can't choose their class if the car can fit in more than one. An example, the Crosley Hotshot could be in sports class, production or 4B.

[DAVE A]

Wayne, Superb that a Hondo Civic was at Grand National! There is a place for all cars, trucks, cycles, etc in the AACA. I remember in the late 80tys when only 3 to 4 VW's showed up at Hershey. Now look at how many there are. Years back I heard comments about the VW's at AACA national meets, and some were not pleasant. Basically ignorant! I also noted the crowds that gathered around Joe Alackness' '50ty Cabriolet, and the Mierz's '54 Cabriolet to name a few. Lots of stories being told about previous ownership of VW's, and how much they are missed.

I personally I the idea of a small car class. What is there now is a start, and it just needs some fine tuning.

As a relative newcomer to AACA, I will bow to Mr. Siegfried's experience and say that it appears that that class 04 is working if it is causing increased numbers of "small cars" to come to National meets. I know that there was a constant group of people around 04 at Charlotte which included a Beetle, Buster Tankersly's Isetta and my Farm O Road so the interest is there. If there are more VW's than before , apparently there are many VW people that like it.

[Guest Stonefish]

Dave, this is the first year for the class....and NO ONE had a choice to what class they could be in. If you owned a VW...you were automatically thrown into the O4 class...not because we liked it.

[Guest Stonefish]

This is what I'm talking about! Why couldn't the Hotshot be with the sports cars?? It certainly could in my eyes....doing my work with PHA history...I know these little cars were racing all over the hills of PA!

[DAVE A]

This is what I'm talking about! Why couldn't the Hotshot be with the sports cars?? It certainly could in my eyes....doing my work with PHA history...I know these little cars were racing all over the hills of PA!

I'm not trying to start an argument here. I'm trying to help find a way to make this class work for everyone involved. Obviously they COULD be, as could, I assume, Karman Ghias. A large part of the total of the 2,498 Crosley Roadsters produced over 4 years ended up racing over hills all over the US after one won the first race at Sebring, so they truely were sports cars. And Beetles and Crosley wagons Could be in production classes and the pickups Could be in commercial or with other pickups etc etc. I am assuming the idea here (among others) was to find a way to increase participation from an increasingly popular area, small cars. Even major concours events have added microcar classes to try to draw more of these very popular (among the public) vehicles. If, as Mr. Siegfried says, more VW's are participating than ever before, it must be working.

[Guest Siegfried]

As a relative newcomer to AACA, I will bow to Mr. Siegfried's experience and say that it appears that that class 04 is working if it is causing increased numbers of "small cars" to come to National meets. I know that there was a constant group of people around 04 at Charlotte which included a Beetle, Buster Tankersly's Isetta and my Farm O Road so the interest is there. If there are more VW's than before , apparently there are many VW people that like it.

Dave, thanks for the compliment:D. I've collected, and owned VW's since 1969. However, I still don't think I know all I should about them.

I remember when you came on the Forum about the original Crosley engine made from sheet metal. I saw one of those engines at The AACA Museum Meet last June. It was display only, and NOS to boot.

I like Crosley's they stand out. Actually I like all cars, but small ones are always my favorite. MG Midgets, Austin Heally Sprites, Mini Coopers, little Fiats, etc. Flat out fun to drive. Not real powerful, but quick tight handling is what I like. And of course they're not interstate cruisers.

The AACA Museum has 3 Crosley's, and one is the Farm O Road. They also have a Bantam roadster.

Class 4A/B will get worked out. Hopefully for the good of all involved

[Guest Siegfried]

Just a thought. We're now into page 5 with the debate. Let's get some concrete ideas in writting, and send off to Herb Oakes. Just a thought.....