RUST DOES SLEEP, ACTUALLY (life with a '57 Roadmaster)

[Guest Rob McDonald]

There's been a delay in firing up the Great Beast. My gas tank has some pinhole leaks, due to rust. It was never enough to actually drip but the bottom was always damp with gasoline and the fuel level would mysteriously drop while the car sat in storage. Who knows how those fumes failed to cause an impressive explosion and fire.

Years ago, I'd pulled the tank out of a parts car, so I'm now having it boiled out and tested. If necessary, the shop will pour in a sealer coating. I'll be replacing the rubber fuel lines before starting the engine. Patience, friends, patience.

[buick man]

Rob: Replace the fuel lines with this: http://gates.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=12468&location_id=5348

That way, all the Alberta and Iowa based corporate farm corn-a-hole fuel will not rot the beast!

[Guest Rob McDonald]

I took the rusty fuel tank out of my Buick today. One of the threaded hanger rods broke off but it was otherwise an easy job. I'll have to buy a length of 1/2" redi-rod and bend it to shape, with the help of my MAPP gas torch. All but one of the screws that hold the fuel gauge sending unit were rusted tight and I had to twist them out with ViseGrips. The sending unit was badly rusted and broke as I was fiddling with it. Fortunately, I have a good spare unit.

I checked out the routing of the fuel hose and was amused to find that a considerable length of it is lying on top of the passenger side exhaust pipe. I'll go hunting tomorrow for some ethanol-resistant rubber tubing, even though Pure Gasoline is not hard to find here in Alberta.

[421-6speed]

I took the rusty fuel tank out of my Buick today. One of the threaded hanger rods broke off but it was otherwise an easy job. I'll have to buy a length of 1/2" redi-rod and bend it to shape, with the help of my MAPP gas torch. All but one of the screws that hold the fuel gauge sending unit were rusted tight and I had to twist them out with ViseGrips. The sending unit was badly rusted and broke as I was fiddling with it. Fortunately, I have a good spare unit.

I checked out the routing of the fuel hose and was amused to find that a considerable length of it is lying on top of the passenger side exhaust pipe. I'll go hunting tomorrow for some ethanol-resistant rubber tubing, even though Pure Gasoline is not hard to find here in Alberta.

Rob,

I just pulled the gas tank in my 57' Century parts car and chased the threads on the "J" bolts, 3/8"-24 prior to removal. The "J" bolts are yours for shipping if you want them.

Edited December 24, 2013 by 421-6speed (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

I took the rusty fuel tank out of my Buick today. One of the threaded hanger rods broke off but it was otherwise an easy job. I'll have to buy a length of 1/2" redi-rod and bend it to shape, with the help of my MAPP gas torch. All but one of the screws that hold the fuel gauge sending unit were rusted tight and I had to twist them out with ViseGrips. The sending unit was badly rusted and broke as I was fiddling with it. Fortunately, I have a good spare unit.

I checked out the routing of the fuel hose and was amused to find that a considerable length of it is lying on top of the passenger side exhaust pipe. I'll go hunting tomorrow for some ethanol-resistant rubber tubing, even though Pure Gasoline is not hard to find here in Alberta.

Go Rob, GO! I am feeling guilty sitting back while others are working on their baby in the winter. Can't wait to hear how this lady runs AND drives. Meanwhile, do yourself a big favor and get some coated brake line to run a new fuel line. If you are just making a driver, put it in in pieces, and connect the pieces with barrel connectors. The long lengths of rubber fuel line are a problem waiting to happen, regardless what type of gasoline you can source.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

The "J" bolts are yours for shipping if you want them.

DAN, that's very generous. I'll try the redi-rod solution tomorrow (size is noted, thanks) but if that doesn't work out, I'll take you up on your offer.

JOHN, I thought about using steel line for the fuel but chose to stick with a one-piece rubber line, so that I won't have any extra connections to worry about. That's probably the same choice that Buick made.

Winter work is complicated for me because my Buick is stored in a garage across town. It was so cold here on Saturday and Sunday (-30C overnight) that I just hunkered down and stayed home. Warmed up to above freezing today and should stay nice for a while, so I hope to get further along in prepping for first fire. On Christmas Day though, I'm flying to Vancouver BC for a week's visit with friends, so we'll see what I can get done in the next two days.

Must remember to keep the camera handy, just in case the Nailhead sings.

Edited December 24, 2013 by Rob McDonald (see edit history)

[421-6speed]

DAN, that's very generous. I'll try the redi-rod solution tomorrow (size is noted, thanks) but if that doesn't work out, I'll take you up on your offer.

On Christmas Day though, I'm flying to Vancouver BC for a week's visit with friends, so we'll see what I can get done in the next two days.

Must remember to keep the camera handy, just in case the Nailhead sings.

If your going to be in Vancouver you could pop down across the border and come get those "J" hooks...hehehe

[Guest Rob McDonald]

DAN, Google Maps tells me that Satsop WA is a bit too far down the peninsula for me to pop in during my Wet Coast visit.

My fabricated J-hook worked out well. I did need the gas torch to make the tight bend on top; my first few tries without it caused the rod to snap. I installed my spare sending unit, got the "new" fuel tank anchored in place, and ran a new fuel line up to the engine compartment. That was a little tricky where the tubing runs from the outside of the frame rail and across the rear axle. Two of the hose clamps were still attached to the old line but there is no trace of where they originally attached to the car. I managed to find a place to screw one of them down, so that the new line is now secure and well away from any exhaust pipes.

[421-6speed]

DAN, Google Maps tells me that Satsop WA is a bit too far down the peninsula for me to pop in during my Wet Coast visit.

My fabricated J-hook worked out well. I did need the gas torch to make the tight bend on top; my first few tries without it caused the rod to snap. I installed my spare sending unit, got the "new" fuel tank anchored in place, and ran a new fuel line up to the engine compartment. That was a little tricky where the tubing runs from the outside of the frame rail and across the rear axle. Two of the hose clamps were still attached to the old line but there is no trace of where they originally attached to the car. I managed to find a place to screw one of them down, so that the new line is now secure and well away from any exhaust pipes.

Rob, Glad it worked out for you.

[Guest 53 Roady]

My first car was a 57 Special in 1963. I put a 4 barrel and a 3 speed in it and raced at the $1 drag strip and top end on the hiways. I survived to swear I'd never have another closed driveline. In 1984 I saw a 57 Olds with a chrome dash. Looked almost like my Buick and had an open driveline. I put a 4 speed toploader in it until my brother gave me a six speed. All was well until my most generous brother offered me his 53 Roadmaster not driven since 1990. I said thanks but I need to finish the interior in my Olds. He gave the Buick to my wife who immediately said,"I'm going to get my Buick." We had to get the Buick to "run and drive" and then shipped it from Seattle to K C. And now I'm trying to figure out how to get the Dynaflow back in it. It has been 50 years since the other closed drive shaft. Is this incredible blessings or just desserts! Or just high class problems...

[Guest Rob McDonald]

PAT, although I do admit to having some trouble with reassembling the Torture Tube, an enclosed driveshaft is not such a bad thing. Theoretically, it aids handling because the rear suspension doesn't have to deal with changing conditions of torque during acceleration. Neither of which - handling or acceleration - are big issues with a '53 Roadmaster.

Because you took the Dynaflow out of the car yourself, you should have no trouble getting it back in. Two ratchet straps are needed to manipulate the rear axle. Actually, four straps - two pulling each direction - wouldn't be too many. And a helper is essential. Be sure to completely assemble the torque ball at the rear of the transmission, before bolting the whole assembly to the back of the engine. The spline on the front of the driveshaft will easily engage the universal joint inside the torque ball.

Of course, all this is now easy to orchestrate from the comfort of my armchair.

[jackofalltrades70]

Might I ad that before tightening the bolts on the torque tube, make sure the full weight of the car is back on the rear axle.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

make sure the full weight of the car is back on the rear axle.

Hmm... that's an interesting warning. What trouble might I expect because I didn't do that before tightening the torque tube? Things seemed to go back together pretty well.

[jackofalltrades70]

Helps make sure the alignment is correct and the weight of the car helps 'seat' the torque ball when tightening. I was advised to do this by my dynaflow rebuilder. So, I did!

[Guest shadetree77]

Hmmmm....I didn't do that either. Or maybe I did do that without exactly meaning to. I had the rear end jacked up to align the tube with the trans. It was right at the point of lifting the car off of the jack stands back there so I would venture to guess that it had almost the full weight of the car on it. Is that how you did it Matt?

[jackofalltrades70]

I started the tube back in the tranny, started all of the bolts, pulling the seal into the groove, then dropped the rear end of the car down as far as I possibly could and still get under to tighten the bolts. I have no leaks and all looked good, so I didn't question why?

[JohnD1956]

Sure glad you guys did this without getting hurt. This must refer to doing the job on a lift where the car has the tires on ramps, as opposed to a four point lift from the frame. Might just be my age talking, but I see this as a good reason one must choose their battles. It seems inherently dangerous to raise the rear axle till the car is off jack stands and then go underneath to tighten torque tube bolts and torque ball seals. Likewise I can't imagine there is enough room to lower the cars weight on the rear springs and then get enough access to reach those same bolts.

Maybe it's possible to put some of Roberts platforms under the rear tires and then lower the car?

[Guest Rob McDonald]

JOHN, at all times, I had the weight of the car either on the frame on jack stands or on the tires on skates, which give me enough room to work underneath.

ROBERT, because you didn't consciously follow what sounds like good reassembly advice - if somewhat belated - and your Buick drives just fine, then I can hope for the same result.

[Guest shadetree77]

I never let it get completely off the stands. It was just right at the point of being off (if that makes any sense). The springs were compressed quite a bit so I know the rear end had substantial weight on it. I had a bunch of extra stands, cinder blocks, wood blocks, and pretty much anything else we could find, lying under there as back ups in case it fell. I think my Dad even stood one of our platforms up on its end and put it under the back bumper. There's no way I could have done it the way Matt did. By the time those wheels touch the ground there's no way I can get up under there. Let's just say my body needs a little extra room to maneuver.

Rob, you called it there. If I did it like it was supposed to be done it was completely by accident. You are correct though, in that it drives great with no leaks whatsoever (knock on wood). I can only wish that you get as lucky as I apparently did in that area.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

Mild weather is forecast for this coming weekend, so I'm going to get brave and try starting my Roadmaster's engine. Although it hasn't run for almost twenty years, it's always been in dry storage and it turns over easily with a wrench on the crankshaft bolt. While I did have the engine out of the car last year, I didn't disturb the carburetor or the ignition system. There's therefore no reason that it shouldn't fire up and run as sweetly as it did when Clinton and Crétien were rubbing elbows.

Here's my startup checklist. Comments are encouraged.

- setup camera on tripod (for my forum friends)

- remove spark plugs, apply a squirt of transmission fluid to each cylinder (Marvel Mystery Oil is not available in Canada, pity)

- check wiring at generator and starter

- set distributor static timing at 5 degrees before TDC (I YouTubed this, hope it works)

- add four litres/pints of fluid to Dynaflow (more after engine starts)

- fill engine sump with oil

- fill radiator with antifreeze mix (more later)

- install "borrowed" battery (can't justify a new one until I'm sure the car's gonna run)

- with spark plugs out, crank engine until oil pressure shows on gauge

- install spark plugs

- fill gas tank with about ten litres of Shell V-Power premium (it has no ethanol in Canada)

- start camera video

- crank engine until fuel flows to carb

- prime carb with small cup, as required (DO NOT tip a jerry can full of gas over a sputtering engine; nailheads are known to backfire through the carb)

- as engine starts and runs, dance around and squeal like a school girl

- adjust distributor cap to maximize idle speed

- hold breath until oil fills the lifters and they quit hammering

- immediately check for fuel, antifreeze, or oil leaks

- when engine is warm, finish topping up transmission fluid and antifreeze

- DO NOT, repeat, DO NOT attempt to drive car - the brakes still need work

- figure out how to load video to YouTube.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Rob McDonald (see edit history)

[421-6speed]

Rob, I would pull the distriputor, make a 3/8" rod ground to fit the oil pump then use a drill to prime the engine. Pull the rocker covers and once you see the oil coming up through the rockers you know your good. Also once the engine is primed with the rocker covers off you can turn the engine over and see if you have any stuck valves.Turning the engine over untill it has oil pressure in a engine that has sat for 20 some years could cause damage. JM2C Good Luck.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

SIX-SPEED, that's great advice, thanks. Cranking a dry engine with the starter would be a slow way to circulate the oil and it could result in damage, even before fuel is introduced. Priming the oiling system with a rod and drill would be a good test, while also getting the oil everywhere it needs to be. I just happen to have a length of 3/8" redi-rod (from my homemade gas tank hanger) that I can fashion into a oil pump driver.

[therios]

...

Here's my startup checklist. Comments are encouraged.

- setup camera on tripod (for my forum friends)

...

- as engine starts and runs, dance around and squeal like a school girl

...

Please make certain you are within the frame of camera recording for your forum friends!

Good luck!

[JohnD1956]

Rob, I love the way you write these comments ( dance around and squeal like a school girl...LOL)

Anyway, Good luck!

[Guest Rob McDonald]

No dancing today, I'm afraid.

On good advice, I backed quite a ways up the restoration path - and then I had to back up some more. I removed the distributor and valve covers, with the intention of spinning the oil pump with a drill and watching for fresh oil to be fed up into the valve train. While the valve covers are off, I figured on checking that none of the valves are stuck. That chore and many others did not get done today.

To drive the oil pump, I built a tool out of a 9" length of redi-rod. I ground a key in one end that matches the key at the bottom of the distributor shaft. Because i couldn't actually see the oil pump shaft without the aid of a mirror, it wasn't possible to engage the tool and the lower shaft. I therefore added a 1/2" drive x 5/8" socket to my tool, to provide a collar to slip over the end of the oil pump shaft. Seemed like a good plan but that's were things came apart, literally.

The wonder tool. Gotta wonder, what was I thinking?!

To attach the socket to the tool, I wrapped the assembly with construction tape. It didn't really stick to the threaded rod, so I used a small hose clamp to hold them together. I then had a pretty good facsimile of the end of the distributor shaft. I could get the tool to engage the pump shaft when fitting it by hand but doing so with the tool in the drill was exceedingly difficult. I finally felt like it had it on dependably and then spun the drill for a while.

Please not that drills do not belong in engine compartments.

I saw no movement of oil at the top of the heads and I'm not actually sure I'd turned the oil pump at all. Anyway, when I disengaged my hokey-built tool, I was mortified to see that the tape had failed and the socket had fallen off. It was now sitting somewhere inside my engine!

Oh boy, what to do now? Well, Buick Man told me on another thread that it's not so hard to get the oil pump out of the sump, so I decided to try that, hoping that the socket would come out the bottom. It didn't but the removal did give me a chance to inspect my combination oil pump/vacuum pump, which I had planned to do anyway.

To get at the pump, of course I had to drain all that new oil out of the pan. Removing the pan is pretty simple, you just need to disconnect the steering idler arm at the frame and the tie rod assembly drops out of the way. There are two oil pan bolts at the front of the oil pan, above the main crossmember, and I thought, How the heck am I going to get a wrench on those? Well, Buick kindly provided access holes through the crossmember, through which a socket on a long extension finds those bolts.

With the oil pan off, the oil pump is easy to remove once you get the oil filter housing out of the way. However, like I said, removing the pump did not free the lost socket, so I have to buy a good magnetic probe tomorrow, with which to go fishing. Please see http://forums.aaca.org/f117/wanted-old-used-broken-oil-pumps-363332.html for a detailed discussion of what I found regarding the vacuum pump.

Vacuum pump crime scene.

Other than trying to fish that socket out of the engine, while simultaneously kicking myself in the butt, I don't know what tomorrow's "playing car" will bring. I can say that I'm glad I've left the hood off the car - who's bright idea was it to put the danged distributor right at the back of the engine?

Edited January 12, 2014 by Rob McDonald (see edit history)

[dei]

OH MY Rob!

For what it is worth (and that's not much), glad to see I'm not the only one with that "two steps forward and one step backwards" thing with anything connected to working on the cars...

Good luck and...... patients.

[JohnD1956]

" who's bright idea was it to put the danged distributor right at the back of the engine?"

Crapola Rob. Actually, in this case you might be happy the distributor is back there. I believe that eliminates several hard spots that socket could morph to if this was a later front distributor Buick engine.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

I didn't get over the the garage today but I did buy a magnetic pick-up tool and a telescoping, swivelling inspection mirror. I'm pretty sure I can fish that socket out of there. Failing that, I realize that removing the intake manifold would get me access to the space where it must be hiding. That would count as five steps back and no steps forward for this round of work. Let's hope the magnet does the job.

[old-tank]

Mr. Gasket Engine Oil Primer Part No. 3795G

Marketed for Chevy v8; works on 55 Buick...

[Guest Rob McDonald]

OLD TANK, thanks for that lead but I think my home-made tool will do the job, if I can be sure that it's engaging the slot in the end of the oil pump drive shaft. I'm tempted to remove the intake manifold, so that I can get clear access to the shaft, to prime the oiling system.

Question: Are metal intake manifold gaskets one-use only? I installed new gaskets when I reassembled my engine recently. Can I R&R the intake manifold, without using new gaskets?

[old-tank]

You can reuse the metal intake manifold gaskets. Just clean as needed and use a 'little' high temp silicone on both sides.

Before a friend gave me the tool (he switched from chevies to ford...still misguided ) I used a section of hose that fit over my homemade tool and the oil pump shaft. Whatever tool you use be sure the drill is turning it clockwise and be sure it is tight in the drill...there will be considerable resistance and the drill will strain under load when the pressure comes up.

Willie

[Guest Rob McDonald]

WILLIE, i'm glad I asked - I'm surprised that the intake manifold gasket needs sealant. There's another good reason for me to remove and replace it. While I'm in the Dumb Questions department, what's the routine for when to use gasket sealant and when not? I always apply it to paper gaskets, on both surfaces, and pretty much everywhere that coolant is involved. What about cork gaskets, such as valve cover and valley cover? Does the carburetor gasket get it? What gasket locations MUST NOT receive sealant?

Edited January 13, 2014 by Rob McDonald (see edit history)

[Smartin]

No sealant on the carb gasket

The intake doesn't "need" sealant, but in the event of an imperfect world, it doesn't hurt to put it on SPARINGLY.

Definitely on gaskets that have coolant involved...

Valve cover gaskets, you're going to get 17 different opinions on them. I goop both sides of the gasket...again, sparingly. You don't need the stuff slopping out the sides of the covers...same for the valley pan.

[old-tank]

No sealant on the carb gasket

The intake doesn't "need" sealant, but in the event of an imperfect world, it doesn't hurt to put it on SPARINGLY.

Definitely on gaskets that have coolant involved...

Valve cover gaskets, you're going to get 17 different opinions on them. I goop both sides of the gasket...again, sparingly. You don't need the stuff slopping out the sides of the covers...same for the valley pan.

Here comes one of the 17 . Glue cork type gaskets to the pan, valley cover, valve cover,etc with weatherstrip cement, then install dry or a small amount of sealant on the other side. Gluing keeps it in place during installation and prevents squishing out when tightening. I use sealant on all bolts or studs that go into the block or head of my 322...many go into a water or oil cavity.

Willie

[Smartin]

You don't want to use sealant on the rocker shaft bolts... Or at least nothing that will clog the oil holes that feed the pushrods.

[old-tank]

You don't want to use sealant on the rocker shaft bolts... Or at least nothing that will clog the oil holes that feed the pushrods.

Adam, you are of course right about those. Generalities will get you in trouble every time .

Now for some specifics where I have had leakers from around bolts/studs (322): engine mounts, water pump and timing cover, studs for spark plug covers, bolts/studs for valve covers, head bolts, water crossover manifold to heads (front and rear of head...should be a blind hole, but I had a leak at the rear of one head), oil filter housing. None of these will give a massive leak, but will leak enough to make a mess and aggravate you.

Willie

[Guest Rob McDonald]

Excellent advice from guys who don't like spots on their garage floor. I'm less particular about that - "Greasy Side Down" is my motto - but I will goop most of those potential points of leakage, as I reassemble my engine after my mid-stream teardown. I don't completely regret this big step backward, although I do wish I hadn't dropped that danged socket. A short piece of rubber hose over the priming tool tip would have been a much better idea.

[1957buickjim]

Rob,

Well, you do have the best of the best (Willie and Adam) providing you excellent information on the intracies of engine rebuild for sure. PM me as I have a non-setting hi-temp sealant that will work for your gaskets. I will gladly send you a sample.

[Guest Rob McDonald]

Hmm... A non-setting sealant sounds messy but I'll give it a try. PM sent, thanks!

[Guest Rob McDonald]

No progress this weekend, unfortunately. I'm having trouble with my Daily Driver, which I eventually had to get towed to a service garage yesterday.

Totally off-Buick topic but here's my problem. The engine in my '67 Valiant starts when you turn the key, as normal, but when you let go of the key, it quits. You can keep the car running by holding the key in the Start position but you can't drive like that, particularly not a 3-on-the-tree car like mine. Sounded to me like a bad ignition switch. I also have a '62 Valiant, so I took the ignition switch out of it and connected it to the '67. Exact same problem. I'm stumped.