URGENT WARNING--EXTENDED LIFE ANTI-FREEZE

[trp3141592]

Hi,

Information was just published in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club Newsletter concerning the use of "extended life" antifreeze in cars over 10 years old.

In a nutshell--don't do it!

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should an "Extended Life" antifreeze, which utilizes Organic Additive Technology (OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT) as one of its chemicals, ever be used in our cars over 10 years old. It attacks the gaskets and gasket cements in our cars, causing major leaks and forcing ultra-expensive repairs. The "Silver Ghost Association" Rolls Royce people have documented massive cooling system failures apparently caused by this anti-freeze product.

Antifreeze that can be used safely in our cars uses older-fashioned Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) additive.

You cannot tell by the color of the antifreeze if it's safe to use. Also, the product may be labelled "Safe for Older Cars"--meaning 10 years old at most. Brands to be AVOIDED are all Prestone lines and Zerex's G-05 in the Gold-color container. Avoid any "extended-life" antifreeze. None of us wants to pull and rebuild our cars' engines.

Acceptable brands are Peak, Peak's HD Product "Sierra," and Zerex Original Green in the WHITE container.

If any of the OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT products are in your car the cooling system should promptly be drained--radiator and block-- the system flushed thoroughly, and IAT antifreeze installed. I am checking to see what's in my 37 Buick and 40 LaSalle.

The article is in Newsletter LVII Number 8 2010. It will be posted on the ACDCLUB.ORG site in a few days in the newsletters section of the forum.

Forewarned is forearmed.

[Guest COMPACTBC]

It will also attack the solder in the older radiators.

[bhclark]

Great....so since I have no idea what I've put in them, I need to flush and fill the cooling system in 6 cars.....

Is there a way to test if these antifreezes are present?

There goes my wallet!

[Guest agriffey]

That's the kind of stuff I like to see people post.

That is seriouse info. Many Thanks to you Tom. I did not know that.

[buick man]

I ran though all of this dealing with my older Ford diesel and cavitation problems that occurs with diesels. But also occurs in gas engines as well but not as much. It turns out the old green anti-freeze is the way to go. You can buy it under the name of International Trucks Brand anti-freeze. The good old ethylene glycol formulla. Use no more than a max of 50/50 blend using distilled water and the world will be a love-in there once again.

[Guest InkedGhandi]

I wish I had known that before I put it in my '72 GTO. I put that in there and on the way back from a road trip it overheated and basically ruined my engine. I had to sell the car because I couldn't afford the engine repair. But thank you for that tidbit. Now I know what not to put in my '64 Wildcat. Can't afford another ruined engine.

[NTX5467]

I found a BASF pamphlet in the 1980s which identified "ethylene glycol" as the item in coolant which attacks solder in radiators, heater cores, etc. It's the "additive package" which keeps this activity at bay, not the "extended life" situation per se. It's the "additive package" which wears out with age and such that is the main reason to replace coolant every year or so. Of course, BASF made the components of the additive package.

One question, with all due respect, would be how do we know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, IF the gaskets were not already deteriorated (or on their way) when the allegedly-offending coolant was installed? Reason being is that coolant mixed with water (to the appropriate strength) will find a way to get out (leak) much easier than if the system is filled with water only. It's been that way for ages, even with the earlier chemistry coolants.

Considering that many of the more vintage engine builders seem to use PermaTex #1 (hardening) and #2 (non-hardening), I went into the PermaTex website and found no specific cautions about particular coolant formulations being hazardous to their sealants' long-term health. I'm also aware that many of the earlier gaskets were paper-based, which I suspect would have some age-related deterioration issues, even if the vehicle sits more than it runs. How many of these vintage engine use "copper" or "steel shim" head gaskets, which will also deteriorate if the addditive package in the coolant wears out.

Just some curiousities . . .

NTX5467

[buick man]

Yes. This issue has been actively reported for sometime now on diesel truck sites as well as the percolation/cavitation problems/air molecules bombarding the cylinder walls and eventually wearing a hole in the water jacket and into the cylinders.

The chemistries in the new extended life and other parts of their chemistries do not tend well older engine blocks. Newer engine blocks are coated from the factory to counter act this so the newer anti-freeze admixture chemistries can be used but not for older blocks. As your anti-freeze ages it creates an acid environment which is detrimental to engine components and metal gaskets.

I use International Harvester (ethylene glycol - green) and/or Catapillar in my older cars. Go to any diesel truck parts supplier and ask for these and tell them you want the pure green ethylene glycol and not the extended life or newer based anti-freeze products that is formulated for diesels/gas engines that were manufactured after 2001.

[1937-44]

I don't know if it has been "proven beyond a shadow of a doubt", but is it worth the risk? If the extended life antifreeze isn't a problem why are the antifreeze companies selling the original antifreeze? I'm looking at a jug of "Conventional Green Formula" Peak antifreeze and it is recommending it's use in 2000 and earlier Ford and Chryslers, GM 1995 and earlier and all makes and models 1989 and earlier.

I think I will just play it safe and use Ethylene Glycol antifreeze in my older cars.

Carl

[Rosiesdad]

How about the radiator flush liquids? Can I dump some CLR in to try and clean up some deposits?

Phil

[buick man]

For what it is worth I will share what my procedure is for dealing with my cooling system. If you follow you should have no future problems down the road.

When ever you flush your system with water or add flush chemicals it should be to a clean fresh water block after draining all the anti-freeze out and refilling with fresh water. Then flush again until clear water remains.

Before you flush your system be sure to run the heater valve wide open and then leave it that way. Then when you flush out the system, reverse flush the heater core as the valve will be open. Heater cores can't take too much water pressure unlike the block maybe 18 lbs tops so take it easy when flushing out the heater core. Take into account your wall faucet most like puts out about at least 60 lbs of pressure full blast or better.

When you flush out your block remove the thermostat from the goose neck and have the flow going back the opposite way the water normally flows in your system which would be back up the radiator and out into the upper thermostat housing. Also flush directly into the thermostat water manifold (for nail heads). When you are done, close up your system and then add the additive flush and drive it that way for a day but with the heater core hoses clamped off with bolts stuck into the ends or however, to seal them off. You don't want or need to be flushing all the block gunk back through your tiny heater core. Then dump it out, flush the block again with clean water then drain. When you refill your system do not exceed the 50/50 blend and do not use pre-mixed ratio anti-freeze use the pure uncut stuff. When you add the anti freeze have a large funnel and a clean/new dedicated 1-gallon plastic bucket. Fill it half way with DISTILLED WATER, not tap water, then add the other half of pure ethylene glycol anti-freeze into the bucket, mix, then use the funnel to pour it in. When you get to the point where you can not add anymore, then start her up and wait with the radiator cap off. The water will go down quickly. Then as it is running have another mix bucket mixture at the ready standing by and add that to the radiator slowly until full level is achieved. You can also add some anti-cavitation liquid into the mix at this time during the fill up process and some wetting solution.

Then purchase a radiator cap with a sacrificial zinc rod attached so it can have the electrolysis and not your system components.

Change your coolant once a year if you drive your car everyday or every 3 to 4 years if it sets all the time as a park bench or garage queen.

The distilled water will help to eliminate the need to have your hard earned dollars chasing dimes later on down the road and also eliminate you spending time looking around for a can of "flush" cure for your cooling system as no such thing really exists!

Be informed. Be active not reactive.

Edited May 26, 2011 by buick man (see edit history)

[NTX5467]

Thanks for the advisory, buick man. Some good information.

When GM came out with DexCool, it was recommended for vehicles which came with it from the factory. It was developed by Texaco, but GM had the "exclusive" on it for the first year of availability.

A Buick product/sales trainer told me that in the first 300 miles, DexCool has an additive in it that coats the cooling system and makes the need for rust inhibitors less necessary AND also allows for the longer life attributes. This, combined with the 'no silicates" is supposed to further ensure longer water pump life (as silicates will allegedly abrade the seals over time).

So, DexCool was never intended for "used" engines which didn't come with it in them from the factory. One thing which is critical for DexCool use is for the engine to have a coolant recovery reservoir on it AND it's maintained at the proper level in the reservoir. Research revealed that when the coolant level in the reservoir drops and stays low, "bad" things can start to happen. In the case of some later-model S-10 pickups, when the radiator cap failed it let too much coolant "out" during a hot soak situation, which eventurally resulted in too much coolant being lost. End result was "pink sand" in the radiator filler necks. The TSB fix was a two-flush session with Dupont's two-part radiator flush, refilling to specified levels with fresh DexCool, and a new radiator cap.

In the case of late 1990s GM 350s in light-duty pickups, we saw them come in with intake manifold gasket leaks. Typically, the same ones also had basically empty coolant reservoirs. Yet others came in with more miles and no coolant leaks from the intake manifold gaskets! General consensus was that as the coolant levels dropped and stayed down in these engines, "something" happened which led to the failure of the intake manifold gaskets (which were a plastic base with thin silicone rubber "seals" made into them rather than what used to be used). Once they were replaced, that's the last time we saw problems in that area . . . for vehicles which we did normal maintenance on later on. Whether it was the degraded coolant (from extended time with too much air in the system) or the fact that with hot and cold cycles, the thin rubber seals failed between the aluminum intakes and cast iron cylinder heads (different expansion characteristics?), or the prevailing torque of the "factory torque" of the smaller-head/thread diameter intake manifold bolts dropped enough to allow the leaks under normal cooling system pressure (these intake bolts torqued to a very low value!) . . . or combinations thereof.

In previous discussions in here several years ago, it was decided to NOT use DexCool in something that it wasn't factory-installed in--period. Although, with a fresh engine rebuild and new radiator and heater core, with a good coolant recovery system, it MIGHT be viable. In the same thread, the Valvoline G-05 coolant was mentioned as a better alternative--I don't recall just why, but it had something do with its chemistry, I believe. At that time, G-05 was still pretty new, but made no claims for 100K+ service intervals as DexCool did.

With respect to coolant chemistry, in the UseNet bulletin board postings in rec.autos.makers.chrysler (or whatever the correct title of it is, which I tried to get close to), one poster went into a lengthy description of just how different the Ford, GM, and Chrysler "DexCool" type coolants were. EACH had their own chemistry (some of which has been mentioned above). It was highly interesting just how different each was AND why they should not be mixed--back then!!! Of course, as time progressed, there are more "universal" chemistries which are more tolerant of other chemistries, just as a/c system oils have become.

From my own experiences on one of my cars, I tried to gently backflush the heater core and it clogged it up, rendering it inoperative. It worked fine previously! Some "gunk" did come out when I gently flushed it in the normal flow direction. Water came out clear, then I tried a gentle backflush, some more gunk came out. I thought "Progress", but then the flow stopped--in both directions. Yikes! So much for THAT bright idea, I thought.

As we mentioned in an earlier thread on coolant system flushing, it's my orientation that if the vehicle is very old, then using an agressive cleaner to clean out the cooling system (engine, basically) might not be a very good idea. As the accumulated "gunk" is removed, it can also remove the scale that has degreaded the inside surfaces of heater cores and core plugs . . . which means that as the system is cleaned, leak/seep holes can happen. One reason to just get down and dirty and wet and remove all of the core plugs in the block after the basic clean-out (especially where the rear of the engine sits lower than the front, with gunk accumulating in the lower sections of the block's coolant passages) to get everything out of the block--period. Of course, the resultant "run-off" would need to be disposed of appropriately as it would contain chemicals and other heavy metals. Therefore, some discretion might be needed in using cooling system cleaners in older vehicles . . . or you could use them and then plan on dealing with core plugs in the process of the cleaning operations.

One other thing about DexCool is that its integrity needs to be maintained to ensure all of its benefits are available. IF coolant is needed and DexCool isn't available, it's ok (according to GM service documents) to mix it with normal coolant in an emergency situation. BUT as soon as the emergency situation passes, the cooling system should be flushed and refilled with the desired DexCool coolant concentrations . . . either using pre-mixed 50/50 or mixing the DexCool and water prior to the resultant mixture being put into the engine (that's how the installation directions have been from day one!).

On DexCool-equipped vehicles where the owners put normal coolant in with the DexCool, the resultant mixture is "muddy brown" and will cause problems pretty soon. Only fix is to completely flush the system and then add coolant of the desired formulation back into the system.

In more recent times, litmus paper strips for coolant have been seen at WalMart and other places. Just like in chemistry class, they will detect acids in the coolant, which can be an indication that it needs changing or can be used a while longer. The use of a spectrometer to check for freeze protection has also been advocated by GM, compared to the normal hydrometer and/or floating balls testers. The spectrometer is pretty neat to use and can indicate a lower freeze protection level than a hydrometer can, by observation. Remember the old coolant checkers which many "service stations" used which required a warm coolant level, as indicated by the thermometer in the base of the tube?

Due to the different service environments in which OTR and commercial diesel engines live, they are subject to some things which gasoline engines in cars don't really seem to have. Internal block erosion from bubbled coolant is one, or the need for an inline coolant filter. Still, looking at some of that technology and adapting it to our normal vehicles might be worth considering. Plus the use of prior-spec coolants!

Respectfully,

NTX5467

Edited May 27, 2011 by NTX5467 (see edit history)

[Guest motorking]

Hi,

Information was just published in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club Newsletter concerning the use of "extended life" antifreeze in cars over 10 years old.

In a nutshell--don't do it!

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should an "Extended Life" antifreeze, which utilizes Organic Additive Technology (OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT) as one of its chemicals, ever be used in our cars over 10 years old. It attacks the gaskets and gasket cements in our cars, causing major leaks and forcing ultra-expensive repairs. The "Silver Ghost Association" Rolls Royce people have documented massive cooling system failures apparently caused by this anti-freeze product.

Antifreeze that can be used safely in our cars uses older-fashioned Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) additive.

You cannot tell by the color of the antifreeze if it's safe to use. Also, the product may be labelled "Safe for Older Cars"--meaning 10 years old at most. Brands to be AVOIDED are all Prestone lines and Zerex's G-05 in the Gold-color container. Avoid any "extended-life" antifreeze. None of us wants to pull and rebuild our cars' engines.

Acceptable brands are Peak, Peak's HD Product "Sierra," and Zerex Original Green in the WHITE container.

If any of the OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT products are in your car the cooling system should promptly be drained--radiator and block-- the system flushed thoroughly, and IAT antifreeze installed. I am checking to see what's in my 37 Buick and 40 LaSalle.

The article is in Newsletter LVII Number 8 2010. It will be posted on the ACDCLUB.ORG site in a few days in the newsletters section of the forum.

Forewarned is forearmed.

Your post is filled with misinformation. I see you are in Michigan, if your interested, You could come over to the Prestone training center in Clawson, Michigan I would be happy to teach you why your information is incorrect. If not, take a look at this video-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffpe8aVvb2c

You can safely use Prestone extended life coolant in any car, we garentee it will not dissolve any parts pieces or gaskets in any properly functioning cooling system

[buick man]

That may be a refreshing but the information that buick man posted is straight as an arrow and true blue too ....