This news aggravated me!

[R W Burgess]

The Big SUV's death rattle- Yahoo! Autos Article Page

Wonderful news, huh?

It seems to me that every vehicle that old people (Yeah, I'm including me:rolleyes:)enjoy owning are being fazed out because of some misguided perceptions about fuel mileages. So, what do we use for tow vehicles from now on?

Anyone that tows trailers knows that long wheel based vehicles are the safest tow vehicles to pull heavy loads with.

I'll just bet they're pushing all of these folks to the dually pickups, but gee, they don't have a wagon like storage area in the rear seating area. I'm just blowing off steam, but I never seem to be able to find an avenue to the Corporations to tell them what I really think. Have you been able to find a contact e-mail address?

Sorry, I guess the Tea Party still has me primed.

Wayne

[DAVE A]

Wayne, I saw exactly the same thing with exactly the same thought. What do I use to tow my 27 foot trailer when a "large " SUV is based on a Ford Taurus platform??? It is plain unsafe to use a small dog to handle a large tail. I love my Dodge truck, (the gas mileage is horrible), it is wonderful and comfortable for towing with a full load so I make the sacrifice. Are the "powers that be" going to try to mandate us out of existance yet another way???

[MCHinson]

There will still have to be tow vehicles made. What may be missing are those nice vehicles that can function as a tow vehicle and a semi practical everyday "grocery getter" on a regular basis as well.

Not to mention our current SUV's will probably still be able to work for us reliably for another 10 or so years anyway.

[poci1957]

I would not worry too much--the Suburban is not going away, nor is the Expedition.

The Explorer and Grand Cherokee will still be able to tow up to about 5000 lb and a sharp new Dodge Durango is about to be introduced.

[DAVE A]

With all due respect sir, it is not what they CAN to but what they can tow SAFELY. I see far too often a smaller vehicle which is rated to tow a certain weight but when it is towing that weight and has to stop in an emergency situation it is far out of its league. My continuing concern is that when a downsized Explorer (on a Taurus chassis for crying out loud) is placed in that situation problems will occurr and we will again hear about how unsafe it is for non commercial vehicles to be towing anything. And I am sitting here complaining about a vehicle big enough to tow Crosleys!!!! What about you guys towing Cadillacs and Packards???

[Restorer32]

They'll get my Dodge Turbo Diesel when they pry my cold dead hands from the wheel.

[West Peterson]

Dave

I thought you just packed those Crosley's in the back of a pickemup truck.

[sambarn]

West, It's an explorer - he obviously uses the roof rack

[trimacar]

Well, the comment was made that they still make the Suburban...which of course is true...but the engines keep getting smaller.

I'm looking for a replacement for my 1996 2500, with the 454 engine. That's about 7.4L. See a used one, fairly new on a lot, when I say to salesman "oh, it's a 6L" well, what's wrong with that they ask......I still believe the old racer's saw "there's no replacement for displacement." I realize that engines have been improved and so forth, but hit a big hill towing a heavy Packard in an enclosed trailer, and you want those cubic inches working for you.

I've resisted going the diesel route, although I know that's available, and those engines, too, are much improved.

So, what year was the last year of a large engine available in the Suburban? A really large, equivalent to the 454............and there's a reason I need a Suburban, not a truck...but that's a whole nother story.......

[DAVE A]

West, It's an explorer - he obviously uses the roof rack

LOL!!!!

I've seen Crosleys hauled about every way possible and have hauled quite a few in the bed of a full sized pickup. Fellow member Barry Seel and I hauled 3 home from Western Pa with a pickup and a 20 foot trailer (you figure it out, all 3 were wagons that measure almost 12 feet from bumper to bumper!!) I specifically bought my trailer so I could haul 2 at a time inside. One friend hauls his Farm O Road in the back of his pickup all the time (60 inch wheel base, it's snug but fits great). My favorite is still the guy who bought a partially wrecked (hit from behind) full sized motor home and rebuilt the back section into a mini garage to haul his Crosley inside and still had a motor home.

The point here is transporting show cars safely with tow vehicles that are smaller than they are. If they take away the possibility for getting tow vehicles for recreational activities, they take away our hobby. Unlike some others, I have no objection to buying an oversize cab pickup for this purpose ( I have a small farm and enough use for a truck on a regular basis), but there are those of our friends that want something a little more "creature comfortable" to use as a dual purpose for when they are not towing. It appears that those are going to cease to exist!!! I believe Linc400 mentioned on another thread the "downsizing" of the late 70's. Well it is happening again!!!!

[R W Burgess]

Unlike some others, I have no objection to buying an oversize cab pickup for this purpose ( I have a small farm and enough use for a truck on a regular basis), but there are those of our friends that want something a little more "creature comfortable" to use as a dual purpose for when they are not towing. It appears that those are going to cease to exist!!! I believe Linc400 mentioned on another thread the "downsizing" of the late 70's. Well it is happening again!!!!

That's what I'm talking about Dave. If I tow only 10 times a year, why would I want to have extra insurance, registration, and property tax fees on two vehicles. A suburban can be used for daily shopping, grocery store runs, what have you, whereas, a large dually pickup is not suited for those duties.

I just feel that here lately, the powers that be are not listening to us, or maybe they just don't care. They seem to forget that, for the most part, us old people are the only ones that are saving money for high dollar purchases like these.

Wayne

[DAVE A]

They seem to forget that, for the most part, us old people are the only ones that are saving money for high dollar purchases like these.

Wayne

Wayne;

How old fashioned of you.....saving money to buy something you want. Next thing you will tell me that you actually PAY for what you buy. Just stand back, cry discrimination (there is a definate bias against us "somewhat more mature" folks), and let the government bail you out!!! As an old boss of mine used to say "It's not my world anymore"!!!

[joe_padavano]

To those lamenting the changes to the Explorer, let's not forget that the Explorer has NEVER been a "full size" SUV. Everyone here should be old enough to remember that the Explorer is the descendant of the Bronco II, which in turn was originally based on the Ranger small pickup. Yes, the Explorer has grown, but it is NOT the full size SUV in the Ford lineup. More to the point, 99% of Explorers don't tow anything heavier than a small utility trailer and the only time they go off-road is if the driver accidentally backs over the landscaping on the way out of the driveway.

As for the loss of the big block Chevy, I also was saddened when production was stopped, but keep in mind that the current truck 6.0 makes more horsepower and torque than the 7.4 or 8.1 ever did, and gets better mileage to boot. It's also smaller and lighter. What's the problem exactly?

[trimacar]

One can look at the numbers on the new engines, and everything seems fine, the 6.0 has, on paper, good horsepower and torque.

So, one day the local dealer has a newer Suburban for sale, 3/4 ton and 4 wheel drive and the new 6.0. I took it for a test drive, hooked up my enclosed trailer, loaded my Pierce in the trailer, and drove it on hills and freeway as a unit.

Whatever the numbers say, the 6.0 DOES NOT have the easy pulling power of the 454 in my '96 Sububan. That's my problem with the newer engines. Yes, it will do it, but not, in my opinion and testing mentioned, as well............

[jim43]

The solution seems simple enough. Decide on what your ultimate towing truck would be and buy it now, used in pristine condition. How long are you going to need it? I am thinking 10 years at the most for a lot of us. This country is full of excellent slightly used vehicles. Get one and maintain it faithfully and it will give all the service one needs. I have never felt the need for a new vehicle in 50 years of driving, and have never had any trouble finding a great car any time I decided it was time for another one. I know, good we all don't think that way or the industry and good used vehicles would have disappeared long ago. jim43

[trimacar]

I've always bought my Suburbans used, and agree with you. I normally keep them at least 10 years.....but it's getting harder and harder to find a 3/4 ton, 4 wheel drive, big engine Surburban, with relatively low miles, that's 3-6 years old. When one buys used, you are buying miles, so buying something with more than 100K doesn't make sense.

I'm looking.....

[joe_padavano]

Whatever the numbers say, the 6.0 DOES NOT have the easy pulling power of the 454 in my '96 Sububan. That's my problem with the newer engines. Yes, it will do it, but not, in my opinion and testing mentioned, as well............

Pulling power is not just engine numbers, it is also transmission and final drive ratios. Did you verify that the new truck you drove had a comparable final drive ratio to the one in your Suburban? Most new vehicles have higher (low numerical) final drives to meet CAFE limits. You can special order steeper gears, but the trucks on the lot are unlikely to have them, again because nearly all buyers of these vehicles use them as station wagons and not heavy tow vehicles.

Of course, I wouldn't buy a new one anyway. My 99 Chevy crewcab dually has 216K miles on it, got a new trans this spring, and will probably get a new engine in a year or so. Amazingly, the exhaust system is still factory original.

[trimacar]

All good points, no, I didn't look at the gear ratios, and should have. I've considered doing a major overhaul of my '96, engine and trans seem fine at 160K, steering is getting loose, and it has some small things wrong with it, seat stitching coming loose and such. Probably be money ahead to fix those things, and just use the truck for towing.

I did put a new radiator in it a couple months ago. Developed a leak, went to my trusty radiator shop, fellow laughed and said "can't help you, it's got a plastic tank on it..." So new is the only option...

[MCHinson]

David,

This might solve your problem...

How about this one.... It is almost bulletproof:D

Chevrolet : Suburban: eBay Motors (item 120616319165 end time Sep-11-10 12:23:04 PDT)

[joe_padavano]

Probably be money ahead to fix those things, and just use the truck for towing.

That is absolutely true. I did a complete front end and brake rebuild on mine about two years ago. Just priced an equivalent replacement truck (2010 3500 crewcab dually 4x4) with the diesel and it was over $52K list. :eek:

$2700 for the trans and $5000 for a crate 454 doesn't sound so bad.

[trimacar]

I saw that bullet proof Suburban, wow! Bet that's one heavy truck, with armor and bullet proof glass..........this would be a good truck to go looking in those hard-to-get-in junkyards....like the one where I walked up to the house door and there was a note on the door...."you knock, you wake me up, I shoot you in face"........

[charlier]

Wonderful news, huh?

It seems to me that every vehicle that old people (Yeah, I'm including me:rolleyes:)enjoy owning are being fazed out because of some misguided perceptions about fuel mileages. So, what do we use for tow vehicles from now on?

Anyone that tows trailers knows that long wheel based vehicles are the safest tow vehicles to pull heavy loads with.

I'll just bet they're pushing all of these folks to the dually pickups, but gee, they don't have a wagon like storage area in the rear seating area. I'm just blowing off steam, but I never seem to be able to find an avenue to the Corporations to tell them what I really think. Have you been able to find a contact e-mail address?

Wayne

I find it interesting how the author of the article was able to turn the positive news of increased large SUV sales into "The Big SUV's Death Rattle". I guess that is how authors attract eyeballs (on web sites & TV) or sell newspapers & magazines.

I got some wonderful news a couple of years ago that the maker of my SUV would not offer a V8 option for the new model of the SUV I drive. They cited low sales of the V8 model as one reason for not offering it. The largest engine offering in the new model has a tow rating 2,000 pounds less than my current vehicle. They also announced a 4 cylinder engine for the new model which weighs over 5,500 lbs. Funny, after only one year of sales, they have discontinued the 4 cylinder model due to extremely LOW sales. Since they currently offer two different V8 engines (4.6L & 5.7L) in other vehicles there may be hope they might come to their senses and put a V8 in the current model and increase the tow capacity (not holding my breath). Also interesting to note that at least for now they do offer the V8 and higher tow rating in two other SUV models they sell. Unfortunately, those models cost $16K and 35K more than the model I have.

When I was shopping for a tow vehicle a few years ago I wanted something that could serve a number of my needs. Towing, winter driving duty, hauling household items, hauling more people more comfortably, etc. For me, most pickup trucks at the time failed to meet those needs and cost $20-30K more.

At some of the AACA Meets this year I noticed that I am not alone when it comes to towing smaller, lighter trailers with an SUV. Not everyone needs or wants a large, dually pickup. Unfortunately, the future plans of automakers does not bode well for those of us with those needs. Time will tell how this works out.

[Dave@Moon]

Are the "powers that be" going to try to mandate us out of existance yet another way???

You've all known this was coming for years. I started posting on the main forum about this in 2007, when President Bush signed the Energy Independence and Security Act ( Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). I was telling you then to start buying up tow vehicles because they were going the way of the do-do.

It's a simple fact: none of us can burn gas the same way we did last year, and none of us will be able to burn it next year like we are now, all for reasons that are a he!! of a lot more important than our toy cars. Me included. Choosing not to appreciate those reasons won't change them or make them go away.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

And if having 2 vehicles, one for towing and one for the 98% of your life when you don't tow things, sounds too expensive, just wait a few years. That next Suburban is going to cost at least double what the last one did very soon. God only knows what the gas to run it is going to cost. Maybe stooping to having a car to use to save on the Suburban for when it's really needed has benefits that justify the insurance/plates/etc., or at the very least will justify those costs soon.

Suburban sales have risen 22% this year, but they're still off by 50% from what they were just 3 years ago. And no regulation/law/etc. from those people we elect had anything to do with it yet. The people buying them this year know it's their last chance and (probably) they really need one. But even at that, it's a trickle compared to the old salad days of 2004.

The world has changed.

Edited September 6, 2010 by R W Burgess
unnecessary, unkind comments (see edit history)

[junkyardjeff]

It looks like its time to buy up some older suburbans and stash them away,I will always build my own tow vehicles since they dont make them the way I like them any more. The manufactures want to sell the options in groups instead of individually now and since I like vehicles without all the power goodies I buy the older trucks and repower them with bigger motors and add what I need for options and nothing more,right now I am building a 66 f250 for my tow vehicle and wish I would of bought the next generation (67-72) crew cab to build so more people can come along on the trip. It would be nice to have something like a suburban but I need a truck so my next hauler will be a crew cab.

[Larry Schramm]

IMO, The reason for the loss / reduction of sales is because of the overall reduction of the vehicle sales in the market in North America. About three years ago the annual sales of vehicles was 17 million vehicles. As of last month the annual sales rate was about 11 million vehicles. In the last couple years the annual sales rate for vehicles actually fell to about 8 million and change. I think that there will always be some sort of tow vehicle available, but the propulsion system will probably not be something that we recognize today and we can be sure that they will cost a bunch more.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Shop Rat]

[ATTACH]63819[/ATTACH]

They'll get my Dodge Turbo Diesel when they pry my cold dead hands from the wheel.

Ditto for Bill and I.

[ksparks]

Well, the comment was made that they still make the Suburban...which of course is true...but the engines keep getting smaller.

I'm looking for a replacement for my 1996 2500, with the 454 engine. That's about 7.4L. See a used one, fairly new on a lot, when I say to salesman "oh, it's a 6L" well, what's wrong with that they ask......I still believe the old racer's saw "there's no replacement for displacement." I realize that engines have been improved and so forth, but hit a big hill towing a heavy Packard in an enclosed trailer, and you want those cubic inches working for you.

I've resisted going the diesel route, although I know that's available, and those engines, too, are much improved.

So, what year was the last year of a large engine available in the Suburban? A really large, equivalent to the 454............and there's a reason I need a Suburban, not a truck...but that's a whole nother story.......

Hello David, its keith sparks from roanoke but still working down in colombia for the last many years. i hope all is well. projects, cars are in the states in storage and at friends places. i agree...........many years ago i used my 16 foot car hauler to move a 31 lasalle parts car from stanton to roanoke. i was so anxious to get back to roanoke that is a miracle that i got it home on 81. the wheel base of the expedition or how i loaded the lasalle was not worth the stress on 81. i was probably average 40 mph by the time i got home.

keith123451@live.com

[mercer09]

Nothing like a diesel. I am all for gas engines, but the 5.9 cummings my company provided me with for work will pull all day long at any speed with pretty much any weight. I have towed up to 20k pounds with no problem.

Plenty of torque.

[Guest Silverghost]

Wayne:

I bought my 1991 low milage Chevy 454 SS Sport short bed truck with it's 454 MK V big block chevy engine & heavy duty 4L80E 4 speed overdrive transmission with lock-up torque converter and locker 4:10 rear end ratio to tow my 24 foot boat and my flatbed with old car toys.

You can literally pull-out tree stumps with this short bed truck !

I only put about 500 or less miles on it each year !

It is literally going-up rapidly in value today !

I have no plans of ever selling it !

I cannot replace it with anything similar built new today !

It's also a blast of fun to drive ~

Edited December 13, 2010 by Silverghost (see edit history)

[K8096]

I think what we may see soon is people "restoring" Chevy 454 powered and Ford 460 powered trucks from the 1980's and 1990's to use a tow vehicles and abondoning late model ones altogether. The newer ones are so complicated electronically if something breaks you're screwed. I just bought a 1996 Ford F 250 to use for occasional towing. I don't think there's much on it I can't fix myself. Transmissions have gotten more complicated too. Everything now is computer controlled. See what it costs for a transmission rebuilt on a late model truck.

There was a guy on here a few months ago with a 1987 Chevy 454 truck with only 80,000 miles on it for $3900. Property maintained, not driven in the winters, rust free, and located near Hershey. That wasn't a bad deal at all. A truck like that is almost collectable now.

Edited December 13, 2010 by K8096 (see edit history)

[Dave@Moon]

I think what we may see soon is people "restoring" Chevy 454 powered and Ford 460 powered trucks from the 1980's and 1990's to use a tow vehicles and abondoning late model ones altogether. The newer ones are so complicated electronically if something breaks you're screwed. I just bought a 1996 Ford F 250 to use for occasional towing. I don't think there's much on it I can't fix myself. Transmissions have gotten more complicated too. Everything now is computer controlled. See what it costs for a transmission rebuilt on a late model truck.

If you use a tow vehicle for towing only, with proper maintenance, it should last a very long time while covering relatively few miles. Wear and breakdowns should be less with fewer miles.

Those complex electronics have value, in that they save on fuel and engine wear. It'd be a trade-off to run a newer truck over a restored big-block, risking unlikely more expensive repairs for better fuel economy (which is going to matter more every year). Also there'll be replacment parts issues for older trucks.

Whatever the decision, I'd say now is not the time to be stringing a marginal tow vehicle along, hoping to get a few more years out of it.

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

I think what we may see soon is people "restoring" Chevy 454 powered and Ford 460 powered trucks from the 1980's and 1990's to use a tow vehicles and abondoning late model ones altogether. The newer ones are so complicated electronically if something breaks you're screwed. I just bought a 1996 Ford F 250 to use for occasional towing. I don't think there's much on it I can't fix myself. Transmissions have gotten more complicated too. Everything now is computer controlled. See what it costs for a transmission rebuilt on a late model truck.

There was a guy on here a few months ago with a 1987 Chevy 454 truck with only 80,000 miles on it for $3900. Property maintained, not driven in the winters, rust free, and located near Hershey. That wasn't a bad deal at all. A truck like that is almost collectable now.

You may well be right on the idea of people restoring older big block trucks, vans, and SUV type vehicles to handle their towing requirements. However, it would be wise to go back far enough to return to normally aspirated engines. We will eventually reach the point where it is impossible to maintain the vehicles that require a working computer particular to the year(s) of the emissions standards they met at the time.

The downside of those normally aspirated vehicles is they were far more utilitarian in nature than those produced in the early 1990s and pretty much ride like a truck. Any perceived benefit in fuel economy in newer verses older is pretty much a myth. No vehicle designed to tow will be geared to provide great fuel economy, not even those with diesel engines (just ask the trucking industry). Although I have to admit my 1990 F-150 with a 5.0L EFI engine does not seem to suffer economy loss when towing verses not towing. Gets 13-15 mpg either way with its towing package and 4.11 gears. Candidly I do not know how well it would fare with a major wind resistance like comes about towing a travel trailer. Unfortunately the problem of replacing failed sensors, throttle bodies, and various other components from which that generation of computer acquires information are becoming difficult to come by, not to mention the computers themselves from that era. The latter being the primary reason to stick with normally aspirated if reverting back is what one wants to do.

Jim

[R W Burgess]

Hey guys, I got a Speed Magazine circular last week out of the blue.

Amazing how many replacement engines are available today in ad mags like these, even brand new factory 350 Chevy engines. They are also very reasonably priced, compared to any electronic replacement on late model engines. They even had new carburetors available. I guess we can thank those rodder guys and speed freaks (word used lovingly) for keeping this industry profitable, bless their little souls!

The point is that these engines, plus their replacement parts, will be around a long time to keep our old trucks running.

Hey, my old '80 Chevy pu will start right up after setting outdoors for months, with only a battery jump and some gas down the carburetor. :eek:

So, what's not to like.

Wayne

[Guest Jim_Edwards]

Hey guys, I got a Speed Magazine circular last week out of the blue.

Amazing how many replacement engines are available today in ad mags like these, even brand new factory 350 Chevy engines. They are also very reasonably priced, compared to any electronic replacement on late model engines. They even had new carburetors available. I guess we can thank those rodder guys and speed freaks (word used lovingly) for keeping this industry profitable, bless their little souls!

The point is that these engines, plus their replacement parts, will be around a long time to keep our old trucks running.

Hey, my old '80 Chevy pu will start right up after setting outdoors for months, with only a battery jump and some gas down the carburetor. :eek:

So, what's not to like.

Wayne

Perfect for we motor heads, but probably no so perfect for the other halves sitting in the passenger seat when pulling a travel trailer around the country on a vacation trip. I've yet to run into but a very few city gals of any age which have an appreciation for the pickups of the '80s and before. Unless basically a country gal used to driving a pickup, riding horses, or herding cattle, they'll all complain about the ride and the lack of creature comforts like cup holders, sound systems, etc.

Jim

[Guest Silverghost]

Jim:

You are indeed correct ~~~

A girlfriend of mine used to complain about riding in my Chevy 454 SS Sport Pick-up and my many Antiques & Classics~~~

I still have the 454 SS and the entire car collection~~~

That girlfriend is now long-gone !

By the way~~~

She drove a Ford Pinto !

[Marty Roth]

City Gal (Dale) and I have travelled cross-country in vintage cars, old Suburbans, and any manner of questionable transport for nearly 43 years. We've made our own cup-holders, used 4-60 Air conditiong (open 4 windows and drive 60 miles per hour), slept in the back of a Citroen Station Wagon over Labor Day Weekend in Bar Harbor, Maine when reservations got fouled-up, gone coast-to-coast with both kids, and laughed our heads off when our 6-1/2 year-old daughter (now Nathan's Mom) said:

"HE HIT ME BACK FIRST"

I'll try to keep the old ones running:

The '86 Suburban 2500 with the 454/400 has nearly 280,000 miles, and had over 155,000 when I got it from TRIMACAR, in April of 2000 (almost eleven years ago, and only a tranny rebuild and R-14 recharge). Great truck - thanks Chevrolet and David!

The 2000 Excursion 7.3 Turbodiesel 4-Wheel-Drive has 256,000 miles, and should be good for at least that many more if we maintain it.

The 2002 Suburban 2500 8.1 Litre Big-Block rides firm (make that Very Stiff) until it is pulling the 30 ft enclosed hauler, using the equalizer hitch - then it rides like a 40 ft wheelbase babycarriage. It even has 6 cupholders, front and rear A/C, Tape and Cassette - Best of all - it pulls like you cannot imagine. Bought it new when GM allowed us to build-up $7,800 in purchase credits on our GM Charge Card, and then offer 0% financing for 36 months. has towed 122,000 miles with no breakdowns or problems whatsoever!

THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT !!

Best to all for the holidays, and a healthy new year, for all of us, and for the hobby.

PS: We drove the 1977 Suburban 350/350 until it had 1,431,000 miles (Yes, over 1.4 million), and the 1978 Suburban 454/400 until it had 376,000 miles. Hurricane Katrina got them, but the engines both live on in local street rods.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

[bhclark]

I still have the 454 SS and the entire car collection~~~

That girlfriend is now long-gone !

!

Yeah, but some of us married that girl and it's cheaper to keep her!