Buicks For Full Classic Certification

[Dynaflash8]

Okay, all of you Buick guys who feel the 1931-33/1936-39 Series 80 and 1940 and 1941 Series 70 Buicks should become certified as Full Classic cars, at last, the next meeting of the Classification Committee is only 5-6 weeks away. I've sent all of the supporting information and literature, as well as reasoning, that I could muster to the Committee as background information to support my application. Now it's up to you other guys to write your support if you're truly a pre-War Buick enthusiast, or just a fair-minded collector who agrees with me. There isn't anything more that I can do alone. Your support will be welcomed.

Earl Beauchamp, Jr.

[jscheib]

Earl,

How does one send messages of support? Many of us are not CCAA members, but I think I can get someone who is to lend some support.

John

[Dynaflash8]

Mr. Scheib,

Encourage a CCCA member to send a letter by email to the CCCA Classification Committee at CLASSICCARCLUB@aol.com and ask that it be forwarded I would presume.

Earl

[Dynaflash8]

series 70? I thought the discssion was 80s and 90's

No Sir, the Series 90 has been a Full Classic since the late 1970's. The 1940 Series 80 Limited is currently a Full Classic based on it's nameplate only as far as I can determine, as it is no different than a 1939 Series 80 Roadmaster. The Reason is that in 1940 the Roadmaster became a more modernly designed Series 70 and there were some 1939 Series 80 Roadmaster bodies left over (apparently) that they didn't know what to do with, so they renamed the Series 80 a Limited for 1940 ONLY and there was never a Series 80 afterward, as those cars were replaced by introduction of the new, more exotic 1940 and 1941 Series 70. In particular, the 1941 Series 70 Roadmaster was part of a momentous year for Buick. The 1941 Series 70 had more horsepower than any car in the industry (the Packard Super 8 with an optional aluminum head did equal the 165 hp the Buick attained) and was equipped with the forerunner of the four-barrel carburetor as it used dual Stromberg 2-barrell carburetors. This car also used basically the same body as a 1941 Series 62 Cadillac. The 4-door convertible had many custom body manufacturing features, according the most well known and respected restorer of these cars in the country, that were not merely modifications of the sedan body. There were only 312 of these cars built, and they were the last 4-door convertible ever built by Buick. For 1936-1941 Buick did not build an open bodied Series 90. These were only built on the Series 70 and Series 80 chassis. If I've forgotten anything, drop me a line at FireballStr8@aol.com and I'll try to find the answer. Earl Beauchamp, Past National President AACA, 2004

Edited May 11, 2010 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

Dear Earl,

Good luck in your efforts to get certification for the Series 70 and Series 80 Buicks with the Classic Car Club of America.

I'm not a member of the CCCA, but I have a few thoughts on the subject I was wanting to put out on the table. I know that there is a formal way to apply for Full Classic Status involving application by a member for either an individual car or a whole model of cars, and a review by the Classification Committee.

Since there seem to be a lot of makes and models of motorcars that people would like to see given Classic status, I was wondering if it would help things if there was a meet somewhere where people could do a little informal lobbying for the marque they were interested in being recognized as Classic. What I'm picturing is a CCCA event with a well-defined area for certified cars only, and another area for some candidates for Classic status. Granted, it would not, by itself, raise a car to a Full Classic -- but it might give CCCA members a chance to see what people were interested in certifying. One drawback is that some of these cars might develop a stigma just from being there, and another is that there's no guarantee that ANY more cars will be added to the CCCA lists.

Just my opinion, but I would find it helpful if in the CCCA.

Edited May 11, 2010 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

Jeff, I don't know about any of that, except to say one has to be a member to have any chance of making his or her idea receive discussion. That is true of any organization in fact. All I can tell you is that I have gone through the formal process and it is under consideration. All I was attempting to do here at this time is let the powers at be know there are (or aren't I suppose) more members interested in this than just myself. Those who know me, also know I've spent my entire adulthood espousing the qualifications and desirability of the pre-World War II Buick straight 8 cars. I suppose I will continue to do so until I'm no longer able. Since I was 15-16 years old I've been preaching to whomever will listen by both the written word and verbally just how great these cars were. "Ask the Man Who Knows Me" Haha. Earl

[Restorer32]

I suspect the powers that be within CCCA are still a bit sore from the recent Town and Country debacle but I do wish you luck.

[Dynaflash8]

Thanks Restorer32 for your thoughts. Well, you could be right but here in South Florida I've found the local people to be exceptionally friendly and I am hoping my request is not affected by something else that didn't happen on my watch. There is a basic policy change being considered, that would make it possible for specific models within a model series to be considered. I think that is a good thing, and maybe it comes out of the Chrysler considerations of the past several years, I don't know. But, it looks like to me the club leaders are seriously involved in thinking ahead and are not stuck in the past. So, maybe this request has a chance. Regardless of that, since I'm 71 years old now, it was now or never for me. I don't have 5-10 years to wait around for any past decisions to dim into the past. Besides, there is and was a process for determining a Full Classic and apparently the Chrysler decision went through that process. Not every decision will always be non-contested. We live in a country where it has always been majority rule; or, that's what my Dad always told me. The most important thing is, with the explosion of modified cars, that all of our National clubs dedicated to preserving the history of the great automobiles of the 1930's and 1940's be proactive in building their base to preserve as many of the cars as possible. I continuously worry about my Buicks falling into the hands of a street rodder when I'm gone. Here, where I live, it would not surprise me to go to a cruise-in and see a Packard V-12 roadster that had been street rodded. As a matter of fact, I did see a Cord street rod at Ormond Beach a couple of years ago.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Actually, that was the problem. The T&C kind of entered thru the back door. Regardless, I agree with the acceptance of the T&C but shouldn't the '46-'48 Buick Estate Wagon qualify also, using the same logic? The Estate Wagon was built on the identical cowl and pan as the '47 Cadillac, which of course is accepted. Some other straight 8 Buicks are Full Classics, are they not? Estate Wagons were built pre-war as well. Let's first see how you fare. Might be interesting to nominate the '41-'48 Estate Wagons and hear the arguments for and against.

[Dynaflash8]

Restorer32. My motto is, avoid ever biting off more than you can chew. As far as I know, there were no Roadmaster Estate Wagon's built before the War, only Specials and Supers. There may have been a custom one built that I don't know about. The only Buicks currently recognized are The 1931-1942 Series 90. I accomplished that one with both CCCA and AACA in the very late 1970's, I don't remember the exact year, and somebody else achieved it for the 1940 Series 80 because it is called a Limited. There are other custom-bodied Buicks that are Full Classics like the Brewster's, and there may be some others. Brunn built some in 1940 and 1941 but I don't know if those owners have ever applied, and I'm pretty sure the one and only 1940 owner has not. That would be my car if I could afford it. And, there may be some other custom body builders who used a Buick chassis. I don't know the answer to that.

As for the 1942-1948 Series 70 Buicks, those can be someone else's cause. The 1946-1948 were somewhat of a step back from 1941 when they dropped the horsepower back to 141 and did not have all of the technical innovations introduced in 1941. True, the 1942 did continue those innovations, but introduced the new body style. I felt to include them in my application would only open a Pandor's Box because they share the new body with the post-War Buick. Again, never bite off more than you can chew.

[K8096]

I think you're exaggerating the uniqueness of the GM convertible sedan bodies of 1940 & 1941. The "custom work" you're describing is little more than a bunch of lead trowelled on and then filed & sanded down. Cadillac, 52 series LaSalle, and the large Buick all used the same convertible sedan body. The convertible coupe bodies also have filed down lead in them right behind the door at the top of the body right where the top mechanism fits. I don't consider trowelled on lead an important custom body feature. It's more of a case of the manufacturer knew they wouldn't sell many of thse things so instead of spending the money to have new stamping dies made up, they found it cheaper to alter a sedan body with the use of lead. It's really no different than how they made the 1953 Eldorado/Skylark/Fiesta cars. They took a standard convertible body and had some fun with a sabre saw and lead. I think it is in err to compare this practice to the practice of manufacturing a custom body from scratch.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

That could be a factor in their decision but aren't there plenty of recognized classics that use production bodies, and more pedestrian bodystyles than a convertible sedan? Some of these cars share basic body shells with non Classics.

This is an interesting thread, it seems to me to be a viable candidate relative to some cars that are already in. There are other factors such as drivetrain that certainly seem competitive. Will be interesting to see what the outcome is.

[jeff_a]

Earl,

Thank you for commenting on my post. Maybe no one would be caught dead attending a CCCA show with their car if they had to park in a separate field designated for Not-Quite-, Not-Yet- or Not-Exactly-Classic. My guess is that people would attend, based upon the number of people who wished their car was a Full Classic. I would be curious myself to see what vehicles would appear.

Point well taken that one needs to be a member to really be a part of the discussion. If I had a car that was a Classic or was submitting an individual car to the Classification Committee I would probably join. My grandfather had a couple of full classics: a 1922 Lincoln and a 1926 Elcar. I have a 1928 Peerless, but it's not one of the 6% of Peerless vehicles built that are approved models.

It seems that to be a Classic, a car needs to be near the top of the pyramid regarding design, cost, and power. I think most of the straight-eight Buicks from 1930-42 meet those criteria and wish you luck with your application.

Jeff

Edited May 17, 2010 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

K8096 I won't argue with you, because I'm not body man or restorer. I'm one of those guys who depends on other guys who don't have all thumbs. I was only quoting a famous restorer who has build Senior prize winners out of 16 1941 Buick Roadmaster phaetons. As for LaSalle 52, yep, you're right, they used the same body as a Cadillac 62 also. But, neither the Cadillac or LaSalle was trying the advanced engineering of the twin Strombergs that pushed horsepower up to 165 hp. I makes no difference that many mechanics didn't have vacuum gauges to set them, and experienced some problems. They can be made to run just great today, and they were the forerunner of the 4-barrel carb. That was told to me directly by the former Chief Engineer of Buick, the late Charley Chayne in a personal letter to me. Hey, it's great down here in New Bern, NC today at the AACA Grand National Meet. Wish you were here, so we could talk in person.

[Restorer32]

Ever see all the lead piled onta a '46-'48 Lincoln Continental?

[Dynaflash8]

Just another week or two before the Committee considers my application for the 1931-1941 Buick Series 70 and 80 for Full Classic status. All I can do is keep my fingers crossed. Wish the Buick's luck.

[Guest my3buicks]

Any news?

[Restorer32]

Was no mention of any action on the part of the Classification Committee in the latest Bulletin.

[Dynaflash8]

Sorry guys, but I've been traveling and I haven't been checking in on the thread. To answer some of your questions, after the last CCCA Bulletin was received here, with no mention of the Buick consideration by the Committee, I wrote to the man in charge. He did not answer immediately, but did send me an email several days or a week later. He said the consideration of all the material I sent to back up the request had been assigned to a Committee member from Michigan and that man did not attend the June meeting. So, any consideration was postponed until August. So far, it's August 25, and no new information from him.

I went to the roster night before last to look up a 1928 Marmon to see if it was a Full Classic. This Marmon model, by the way, is not. Anyway, I happened on a paragraph that listed "declined" requests. I was shocked to see that the 1931-1939 Buick Series 80 has been turned down 10 times since 1980. Now, I'm sure none of those ten requestors had the information, knowledge of Buicks, backup literature and well known collectors behind them that I did on this request. However, the Chrysler Town & Country had been turned about as many times and finally got over the hurdle. So, I guess you can say "nothing is forever". Still, I don't have a warm and cozy feeling. Somebody very powerful, long ago, I think back when I was a boy (and I'm almost 72), was for some reason very down on Buick as a brand. Hopefully we're entering a more enlightened era about Buick's built before World War II. Under the direction of Harlow Curtice, Buick was the GM brand that was pushing every area of automobile manufacturing, including speed, power, innovation, luxury and quality, so much so that in 1941 Cadillac had to go to GM leadership and complain about the heat that Buick leadership was putting on their own sphere of influence in GM product layout.

Edited August 25, 2010 by Dynaflash8
typos (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

All of this is a very complicated review. The good news is that the process continues. In other words the latest hurdle has been has been successfully passed without an answer of "no". There are several more hurdles that could result in a "no", but with each hurdle passed there can remain hope for a successful conclusion for those of us who support these Buick cars. I would rather not say any more at this time for fear of my doing something to harm possibilities of success rather than help it. For now, friends of the issue, just keep the faith and express your support when or if the time comes. That will be extremely important. Thanks to everyone who has expressed their support to me priviately and on this web site.

[Marty Roth]

Earl,

Thanks for your continued effort

and follow-up,

Marty

[Dynaflash8]

Marty, thanks for the kind words. You sure do have a bunch of cars, wow! I just divested myself of one so I could have a full two car garage to try and finish the two I have in process. I'm afraid I've gotten too old to tackle anymore restorations. None of my collection of the 3 1939 Buick's are classic in nature, but the three represent my lifetime goal, and for 1939 I like the small Buick the best for dimensionable looks and front end beauty. I guess you know my parents had a '39 Buick Special from the time I was three almost until I was old enough to drive and I bought my first car, a '39 Buick Special sidemounter with my newspaper route money and it's recreation is the car I use in my picture here. It's been the base of my collection since 1963. The convertible coupe turned out to be the hardest of my big three to get. The '41 Roadmaster phaeton took 21 years for me to get it out of the museum where it was. The museum owner claims it belonged to the 1930s/1940s bandleader Ted Weems. The '71 Riviera is for my wife who drove hers 165,000 miles before parking it. It's almost ready for AACA competition. This model is the only post-war Buick built after I was 20 to knock my socks off when they were new. I think it was the boat tail, which reminds me of or takes me back to the 1935-36 Auburn boat tail, a car I always loved but could never afford to own.

[Dynaflash8]

Here is a picture of the '41 Roadmaster phaeton, which I do believe should be considered a Full Classic car.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Beautiful, Earl. For what it is worth, I agree.

Ben

[Dynaflash8]

Ben, which one in the picture is you? The one in the driver's seat I'll bet! haha

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Earl the one in the drivers seat became my broyher in law several years later. The one on my knee is now about 57! Guess that lets you know my age , or there abouts.

Ben

[progoofoff]

Dang, I didn`t know anyone got that old.

[Dynaflash8]

Ben, now that's what I call keeping it in the family.

[Guest Fred_S]

For what it's worth, I agree that the series 80 Roadmasters need to be looked at very carefully for Full Classic certification. The series 70 Roadmasters have considerable merit - I personaly think they exceed the similiar bodied Cads (and I have a Full Classic Cad), but then where to stop. My series 60 Century carries the Roadmaster/Limited 320 engine, the Roadmaster series 70 chassis and a shorter version of the '41 Limited 90 body and is certainly an impressive car, but not classic.

Earlier comment on the lead in Continentals is indeed correct. More lead in my 46 Cont convert than in a 1/2 dozen lead/acid batteries... (Fred CCCA #432)

[Dynaflash8]

Fred S you are correct that it has to stop somewhere. I think the problem with the Series 60 is the same as it is from 1936 forward. It uses a Special body with the big engine. It's more of an early "Muscle Car" than a Classic. The interior is appointed better than a Special sedan/sedanette but it's still an "in-between" model. There is no Series 70 Roadmaster 4-door convertible from 1942-forward either, as 1941 was the last of that breed, and no Series 80 after 1940. The 1940-42 Series 70 was the continuation of the Series 80 prior to 1940, and the 1940 Series 80 was basically a Model using left-over 1940 bodies and called a Limited as were the Series 90 cars. It was a baby Limited in 1940, as it were. One could say that if the 1942-47 Cadillac's are Full Classic, why not the Buick Roadmaster? I would answer that by saying that after clashes with Cadillac and GM top brass in 1941 over Buick trying to step up to challenge Cadillac, Buick basically lost the argument and stepped back to become the runner up to Cadillac in the GM line-up. Up until the big push in 1941 when Buick leadership actually tried to market a custom built car by Brunn, Buick was continually challenging Cadillac for the elite market, but afterward that competition subsided, except for 1949 when Buick brought out the 2-door hardtop to again challenge the rest of the GM brands. That was quickly stopped by GM top brass and the only thing given to Buick out of the deal was that they introduced the Riviera two weeks before Cadillac and Oldsmobile introduced their own 2-door hardtops.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Guest bkazmer]

in the spirit of friendly discussion, to extend your 42 - 48 Cadillac comparison:

41 Buick Roadmaster engine vs 48 Cadillac engine

48 Packard Custom 8 (same engine as 40 -47, same main body as 41-47 Clipper) vs 48 Cadillac.

Which would bring in the 48 - 50 Packard, which would bring in the OHV Cadillac, which would bring in the Hemi Imperial ....

so I appreciate that the designs evolved, and not all at the same time, giving the committee a thankless and in some sense "no win" task

[Restorer32]

A '47 Cadillac Sedan body is identical to a '48 Buick (minus the pontoons). The '46-'48 Buick Estate Wagon was built on a modified sedan body (Either Buick or Cadillac). Where to draw the line is the problem. Can anyone make the case that a '48 Chrysler T&C is more "Classic" than a '48 Buick Woody? For that matter which is more "Classic" , a stock '47 Cadillac or a '47Cadillac Hearse built by a custom body builder? The mind boggles.

[Dynaflash8]

bkazmir: 1941 Buick 70 had dual carburetors and was rated at 165 hp, as was 1942; however 1946-48 droped back to the 1940 hp of 141. In 1941 Cadillac had 150 hp. I did not mean to include 1948 Cadillac in discussion (and now I've made an edit to change that) above, but only 1942-47. I don't know if those were still 150 hp or not.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Dynaflash8 (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

Restorer 32 I'm not going to get into that Chrysler T&C discussion because I don't know enough about it. As for the 1942-48 Buick 70 my feeling is you have to crawl before you can walk. As a Buick historian and writer, it is my opinion that 1941 was the pinnacle year for the Buick straight 8. If the 1942 wasn't practically identical to the 1946-48 I could argue for them because of the continued dual carburetion. It's going to be hard enough to do what I'm trying to do for the 1931-41 Series 70 and 80. If I can climb the first mountain, I'll leave it to you to climb the next mountain. I don't even want to think about the effort failing.

[Guest bkazmer]

I certainly didn't mean to disparage any car. My point is that there are contemporary (non-Classic) cars of the 1940's Cadillacs, particularly the big Buicks and Packards (160 hp), which are at least a match for them. So to me the inherently blurry boundary is right around those Cadillac 62's somewhere.

[Restorer32]

I have no intention of climbing any mountains. I was just trying to point out the difficulty in deciding what is and is not worthy of the Full Classic crown. I think the CCCA has passed the point where ANY definition of what a Full Classic car is or is not is impossible and the term seems to be becoming more and more irrelevant every year, sadly. Lots of leeway in any definition broad enough to include a Duesenberg Town Car AND a '47 Cadillac 62 series sedan.

[trimacar]

term seems to be becoming more and more irrelevant every year, sadly

So true, and so sad, as you say......the CCCA is in the same situation, and probably worse due to the nature of the cars so classified, as many clubs....older members, very few young members, and so forth. The CCCA must maintain some exclusivity, but that very thing limits the available member base. Us old-timers who love the original early cars are disappearing.

I went to a local small auction, 9 cars, last week. Model A coupe, 1940 Chevrolet sedan, Mustang coupe, Corvair, VW convertible, some 70's Eldorado/Grand Prix kind of cars. Of the 200 people there, I guarantee there weren't 10 people under 50 years old. I realize these cars aren't real Classics, but it still is a snapshot of where the hobby is right now. Had there been some muscle cars or hot rods, I bet there would have been less percentage gray hair in the crowd..................

[Dynaflash8]

Restorer32 it is my view that the passage of time has added more perspective when looking back, with less in-person passion entering in. I view it more as comparing a vehicle against it's own contemporaries during a specific period of time. I think that the single decade from 1931 through 1941 represented the greatest and fastest period of automotive advancement and styling change and engineering during the shortest period of time in our automotive history. I feel sure there are other worthies yet to be recognized as such, but someone else will need to step forward to try and make their case with a set of proving points. I'm only trying to make the case for one group that I and others feel were a very high quality, very innovative make, often purchased by wealthy people, movie stars, and used by government officials which have not yet been recognized as such. I'm sure that many of the men who designed and built the great Classics of the early to mid 1930's were still in the business at the beginning of the War and were still putting as much exclusiveness into the cars they were working on as they could, while recognizing the different situation brought about by economic change in the United States. After the War, the industry began moving in a new and different direction. Time changes many things and I hope time is on the side of these great old Buicks.

[Dynaflash8]

trimacar it's even worse here in Florida. Almost no cars at any event that are authentic. Even the Muscle cars are street-rodded. I go out less and less with my cars and have started driving them to church to keep them active.

[Marty Roth]

Earl, While you are at church with your Buick, try getting some "divine intervention" toward the approval process - just kiddin'