Why not buy American?

[KDirk]

Howard,

Regarding your "simulation", I think there is one possible variable you are unable to simulate. Yes, when you shifted to neutral under acceleration, the engine raced and eventually actuated the top-speed limiter (fuel cutoff) function as expected. That is the normal (designed) operating mode for the PCM under those conditions.

Now, bearing in mind that it has not yet been factually established with absolute certainty that there is a Toyota PCM/firmware malfunction in play this is speculation on my part. If there is a PCM or firmware failure causing these uncontrolled acceleration faults, it may be that the faulty firmware or some other portion of the PCM electronics is placing the computer in a non-responsive state where the normal "program" is no longer running and error handling and recovery routines are no longer able to failsafe the operation of the unit. This is an entirely feasible explanation. What triggers this is the real question, but that requires specialized computer simulation equipment and perhaps many hundreds of hours or more to replicate under controlled conditions.

Having some understanding of micro controllers and embedded systems, I have seen this very type of malfunction. Is is analogous crashing the operating system on a PC. It is still powered on and programs may in fact still be running as active threads, but the system is non-responsive to any inputs or low level error handling routines (why CTRL-ALT-DEL will not always reboot a system in such a state). My experience with MCU/embedded systems is not in safety critical systems, but the principal of operation is the same.

Since the accelerator, gear shift and probably many other inputs read by the PCM are "by wire" (not purely mechanical devices actuating a sensor for the needed PCM feedback as in older cars like the Reatta) if the PCM "crashes" it will not read these inputs and will not respond. Further, depending on what causes the failure and where in the program it occurs, results can be unpredictable.

Think of it this way (in simple computer programming terms): If you have a short program that has a for-next loop (just a sequential counter that goes from 1 to 100 lets say)

and the program crashes after the loop has counted to 10, but the CPU continues to execute the loop it will keep counting to 100 with no way to stop it short of removing power from the computer as the keyboard/mouse/soft reset button no longer have control of the hardware to halt execution by user input. In the context of a car, if the last "routine" running in the PCM was the command for acceleration, and the PCM locked up at exactly that point, it may continue executing it's last known command (speed up) This is a very over-simplified way of making the point but hopefully it makes sense.

This also raises the question on the start stop button: is this simply another "peripheral" input device tied to a port on the CPU within the PCM or is it a direct physical make/break switch with the ability to cut the power to the PCM and stop the car. Given the required time delay (reportedly 3-5 seconds), I would be curious to see how the start/stop button is integrated into the design.

Just pointing this out as your simulations may not have rendered the reported failure as the true cause may be something that cannot simulated if it is an intermittent PCM failure that results in runaway operation.

KDirk

[reattadudes]

Road Mister,

it looks like somehow you've taken a post about not buying American vehicles and turned it into a bunch of Fox News talking points.

first, the deficit. when Bush first took office, there was a surplus. who ran up the deficit? were you complaining then, or yelling "git 'em!!" with duyba with his bogus reasons for invading Iraq, while those billions changed from surplus to deficit at an incredible rate? the money added to the deficit since Bush left office is absolutely miniscule in comparision.

second, it seems that many folks who gripe about the GM bailouts seem to forget two things:

1) every other auto producing country realizes how important and vital it is having an auto industry. this realization includes the UK, France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Japan, Korea, and Australia. the governments of these countries have no problem GIVING their industries money to stay afloat during hard times. they have PRIDE in their national industries. by the way, these countries ALL have strong unions that pay their workers far more than they make here. their industries get the money without any repayment necessary.

2) GM is on track to repay the money IN FULL (with interest) by July of this year. it seems many of the gripers are upset about this, as there will be no reason to continue to use the sophomoric term "government motors".

and on the subject of cash for clunkers, more of the talking points. you seem to forget this was an incredibly successful program. you seem to avoid a very simple fact, besides the increased sales, a lot of money was put right back in the system.

a friend bought a new Ford Escape. he paid back $2,500 in taxes and licensing fees, and he got a $3,500 rebate. I know several others who also participated, and they paid back more in fees that the amount of the rebate. I guess that pesky fact wasn't in the talking points, was it? it was so successful that many dealers ran out of cars to sell.

and on the discussion of illegal immigrants; what is your PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, or is it just about brown skinned, non-English speakers that you don't like?

let me tell you about my experience.

I live less than 40 miles from the Mexican border. there are very few weeks that pass where I do not have these hard-working people crossing thru my property. I always make a point to give them food and water. if I'm headed in that direction, I'll give them a ride. would you walk 40 miles in incredibly adverse conditions for a $7 an hour job? for some reason, I think not. I doubt you would walk 40 miles for anything.

newsflash:

all of the "they don't pay taxes Mexicans" actually do. as a matter of fact, over 80% who work here that don't have a green card use a fake social security number to get work.

what does this mean?

they are paying the maximum tax possible, and get no deductions whatsover. no deductions for dependents, no interest deductions, nothing. they pay more taxes than you do, and don't get a single benefit. they pay state sales tax for what they buy, and license fees on the vehicles they drive. here in Arizona, those license fees can be $200-$800 per year.

and why are they here anyway?

they are here because Americans don't want to work a lot of jobs. I live within five miles of hundreds of thousands of acres of farmland. would you like to go out and pick cantalopes or tomatoes in 115 degree heat, stooped over for ten to fifteen hours a day? would you do it at any price? I didn't think so. they do it for less than $10 an hour; far less. and for those who want Amerikuns to have these jobs for $20 per hour, would you be willing to pay $6 or more for a head of lettuce? $8 a pound for tomatoes? for some reason, I think not. as always, griping with no good answer. reap the benefits of cheap labor, and then express hatred of those who do it.

there was a story here on the TV news in Phoenix a few years back on this very subject. there was a McDonald's in Scottsdale that was bringing in workers from South Phoenix because no people in the local area would work there for $12 per hour. McDonald's even provided free transportation for those who didn't have it.

the reporter interviewed a "classic" Scottsdale woman (aerobics body, boob job, streaked hair, black Lexus), and asked if she would want her 16 year old son to work at McDonald's.

her answer: "oh, heavens no, we just bought him a new BMW convertible, and he needs time with his friends; he doesn't need to work". and we wonder why kids today need to go thru rehab five times before they reach 25, and never move out of the house.

while many kids were planning their "sweet sixteen" parties, I was standing in a county office in Akron, Ohio, getting a work permit. my first job when I was 16 (I started on my birthday) was as a busboy for $1 per hour. my parents wouldn't let me get a car until I saved enough for my first year in college, and then a full year's car insurance. then I could buy a $350 car myself. it was a rustbucket '65 Mustang that would flood inside when you drove thru puddles. to me, it was the best car in the world; no new BMW necessary. for some reason, I don't think too many kids have to do this anymore. everything is given to them. could the issue be with the parents, and not the evil brown folks who take the jobs no one else wants?

..and if you believe these brown people are taking away American jobs, if the "brown menace" was gone, would you be beaming with pride when your daughter or grandaughter became a motel maid, or your son or grandson a ditch digger for minimum wage?

if you wouldn't, who would you suggest to do the job?

just some food for thought.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited February 25, 2010 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[BrentS]

Anyone who thinks the American auto industry has a chance of even keeping their current market share REALLY needs some business lessons. Maybe they could go back to college; and if we keep heading down this liberal transition road, they may even be able to go to college for free, with socialized secondary education.:eek:

It is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that China will soon start to mfr autos that will be sold in the U.S. They have 1.5 billion people.......a gigantic supply of cheap labor, a government that continues to make strides in free trade, and a country that doesn't give a CR@P about any other country OR the environment, or human rights. That, is a perfect mix of qualities that will further their expansion of all their manufacturing industries.

This whole subject of "buy American" is soooo ridiculous, it's like trying to argue the world is still flat.

I would like ONE example of a successful US company that is involved in manufacturing, which has been able to remain completely isolated from global trade. Go on......find ONE.

[Guest Telco]

If the people with these jobs nobody wants were offering a wage that matched the work, they'd have no end of people applying for the jobs. The reason nobody but illegal border jumpers want these jobs is because the hiring folks don't want to pay the wages, and that's because we don't want to pay 2 dollars a pound for tomatoes.

It's also low class to try and pin some sort of racism charge on someone who doesn't like illegal border jumpers, because illegal border jumper isn't a race. Illegal border jumpers come in all colors and from all nations, and there's nothing wrong with them until they come in this nation illegally. At this point they become lawbreakers, and it doesn't matter what the reason they came here is. They are lawbreakers the same as a bank robber. You wouldn't show pity and let a bank robber off if he was robbing the bank to feed his family, I see no reason why a citizen of a foreign nation crossing the border illegally should be treated any different. They break the law, they get caught, they suffer the consequences. We are far, far more lenient than most nations are with illegal border jumpers. In other nations, depending on the nation, an illegal border jumper can expect to be robbed, raped, tortured, imprisoned and/or killed by the police, and that includes that nation of brown skinned folks to the south. Ask a Guatamalen illegal border jumper who they'd rather be caught by, US Immigration or the Mexican police.

I'd like to see the existing laws enforced, meaning when an illegal border jumper is caught by the police I'd like to see him arrested and deported. I don't care if he's brown skinned, poorly educated and doesn't speak English, or if he's got white skin, highly educated and speaks excellent English. If he's here illegally, I'd like to see him arrested and deported. There's a way to come to this nation legally, and to the legal immigrant I say welcome. To the illegal border jumper, I say go home.

Back on the Toyota issue, this is just going to get worse as more and more vehicles get drive by wire systems, and get internet connectivity. GM vehicles are already wired to GM via satellite. Even if you don't pay for Onstar, GM has the ability to take control of your vehicle. If the police ask them to, they can shut down the engine and cause you to have to coast to a stop. As soon as GM works out steer by wire and brake by wire a GM rep will be able to take total control of your car, lock you in, and drive the car to the police station. Other makes are setting up to allow you to control certain vehicle functions over the internet. Right now it's just bluetooth, but with every cell phone having both bluetooth and internet capability, it won't be long before some group figures out a way to take control of vehicles by uploading programs to the vehicles via bluetooth connectivity through the cell phones, or even directly via the internet. How nice it would be when at 8AM on Monday morning, all GM cars suddenly locked all the doors, started if not already running, shifted into gear, went max acceleration for 15 seconds, then executed a hard left turn? With internet connectivity, steer by wire, brake by wire, throttle by wire, and BCMs controlled by the computer, there's no reason for this scenario to NOT happen.

Well, not gonna happen to me buddy. Since it looks like vehicle control by wire is inevitable, I plan to install a fuel pump kill switch on every vehicle I buy in the future that has drive by wire technology the first day I own it. It'll be a relay in the main power line to the fuel pump controlled by a hard switch in the passenger compartment. If nothing else the vehicle will go through its motions with no fuel. I'd recommend everyone else do this too.

[reattadudes]

Telco,

thanks so much for proving my points; I couldn't have said it better myself.

your obvious hatred of "illegal border crossers" comes out with crystal clarity; you used the term 9 times in little more than one paragraph. I find it comical that you allegedly have no dislike for "brown people" specifically, yet I have a feeling you wouldn't be going after nice, english-speaking Canadians that were "illegal border crossers" with the same veracity as you would that brown skinned man mopping floors at your neighborhood Denny's. that hatred also comes thru when you compare someone coming here to take a menial job no one wants akin to a criminal robbing a bank.

do you really thing that if growers were paying workers $15 per hour, they would have lots of takers? would those "takers" (good white English speaking folks, of course) keep the job for just one day, before they decided it was backbreaking and below them, or would they stay for a week? you even pointed out that Americans would have no interest in seeing produce prices quadruple (or more), caused by these additional wages. thanks for proving the point I was trying to make. when you get to the bottom line (literally), do you really think most Americans care who picked their produce, or are they much more concerned by how much it costs?

by the way; like most Americans, I wouldn't want to do this work at any price, and I'm glad we have people to do it for us. in case you didn't know, that $7 hour job is quite a princely sum to our south-of-the-border-just as-bad-as-a-bank-robber farm workers. in Mexico, that would be a good wage to MAKE IN A DAY, not an hour. they make more in a day here than they would make in a week in Mexico.

perhaps you need a little history lesson here. should we be actively pursuing Americans of Irish descent, wanting to see all background papers on their ancestry?

how many ships full of Irish immigrants were turned back at Ellis Island? many in the United States had a hatred of the Irish at that time (they drink, you know), as they knew "the Irish would ruin the United States", and were "undesirable"? how many Irish immigrants literally jumped off the ship, and swam to US shores? if they are akin to bank robbers, should that be grandfathered in, and their 200 years of descendents be criminals, too? how many other Americans' ancestors arrived here on less than official arrangements?

looks like you have your work cut out for you. start asking for those papers!

your paranoid fear of OnStar is easily solved. every OnStar equipped vehicle has a transmitter inside. unplug it or remove it. no fuel cutoff switch necessary.

they'll never find you now, and can't take control of your car like family dog Astro did to George on the Jetsons.

RUH ROH!!!

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattapsrts.com

[jonlabree]

Mike, I don't belive that $7.00 an hour is all they get. What about all of the free health care and the ones that aren't working get food stamps and welfare payments. I belive that that adds up to a whole lot more thatn $7.00 an Hour.

[BrentS]

Wow.....this thread has even gone onto illegal immigration......funny stuff.

This thread is (by far) the stupidest thread I have seen on any forum............so stupid, that I find myself addicted to reading this tripe. Ha!

I have NO problem with any illegal aliens making low wages for work in this country..........especially from the horrible country of Mexico. The drug cartels' foot soldiers actually outnumber the amount of people they have in their entire military! Scary stuff. So, by employing them here, and having them send most of their money back to Mexico (which they do), can further feed the rampant corruption and drug-laden crime, that the cartels embrace. This problem is so substantial and complex, that anyone who is a proponent of illegals entering this country, simply on the foundation of feeling sorry for them, is clearly showing their ignorance on a such a subject which they cannot possibly understand.

And NEVER use an argument, such as: "back in the early 1900's, we never turned away immigrants......". IT IS NOT 1900. We are so much worse off

[handmedownreatta]

If the people with these jobs nobody wants were offering a wage that matched the work, they'd have no end of people applying for the jobs. The reason nobody but illegal border jumpers want these jobs is because the hiring folks don't want to pay the wages, and that's because we don't want to pay 2 dollars a pound for tomatoes.

It's also low class to try and pin some sort of racism charge on someone who doesn't like illegal border jumpers, because illegal border jumper isn't a race. Illegal border jumpers come in all colors and from all nations, and there's nothing wrong with them until they come in this nation illegally. At this point they become lawbreakers, and it doesn't matter what the reason they came here is. They are lawbreakers the same as a bank robber. You wouldn't show pity and let a bank robber off if he was robbing the bank to feed his family, I see no reason why a citizen of a foreign nation crossing the border illegally should be treated any different. They break the law, they get caught, they suffer the consequences. We are far, far more lenient than most nations are with illegal border jumpers. In other nations, depending on the nation, an illegal border jumper can expect to be robbed, raped, tortured, imprisoned and/or killed by the police, and that includes that nation of brown skinned folks to the south. Ask a Guatamalen illegal border jumper who they'd rather be caught by, US Immigration or the Mexican police.

I'd like to see the existing laws enforced, meaning when an illegal border jumper is caught by the police I'd like to see him arrested and deported. I don't care if he's brown skinned, poorly educated and doesn't speak English, or if he's got white skin, highly educated and speaks excellent English. If he's here illegally, I'd like to see him arrested and deported. There's a way to come to this nation legally, and to the legal immigrant I say welcome. To the illegal border jumper, I say go home.

i agree totally

[padgett]

Interesting. My sister lives about 10 miles north of the border, a bit west of Bisbee (only TV station comes from Sierra Vista). She is not concerned about "illegals" either.

I keep wondering what happened to NAFTA & frankly am puzzled whom the fiction of borders benefits.

And then there are allathem snowbirds with Canadian plates.

[reattadudes]

Viking,

this keeps getting crazier by the minute.

what happens when the Fox News talking points run out, reality hits, and you have to wing it on your own?

what is "free health care"? does that mean if someone shows up at a hospital with something wrong, they are treated?

perhaps your view is that they should be kicked to the curb, and left for dead. of course, would this same inhuman standard be applied to "real Amerikuns" if they didn't have health insurance? kick them to the curb, too? I'm sure you'd get that "little tingling down your leg" to see the uninsured literally dying in the streets...unless, of course, it was you, a family member, or friend in this position. that would be all different, right?

I can't believe the comments about them being on welfare. not only is it impossible, it's totally untrue. when you go to apply here in Arizona, it takes at least a week to even be approved, as they check every databse to make sure you are a citizen. a copy of a birth certificate is also required if requested.

it's so strict here that you are required to provide a birth certificate to get an Arizona driver's license if you come from a list of ten states, even if you have a valid license from another state. rules like this apply in many other states, besides Arizona. Sean Hannity didn't tell you that?

..and about that $7 wage. you're right, I exaggerated about that. many of them make $5 per hour in the off-season, as work is very hard to come by here, and they have to eat. that princely $7 comes only in season.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

[BrentS]

What would be wrong with a healthcare system, where if you did not pay for healthcare, that you would only be entitled to receive emergency, life-saving/stabilizing treatment.......................Oh wait.........WE ALREADY HAVE THAT! Healthcare is fine........leave it alone.

If an illegal alien drug dealer/murderer, crossed the boarder into U.S., shot and killed 10 school children in front of a dozen witnesses, and was finally shot and seriously wounded by the police.......where do you think they would take him?.........THE HOSPITAL! I mean, you can't get better healthcare than that!

[Guest Telco]

Reattadudes, you're 100 percent correct. I only mean brown skinned people and not anyone who breaks the law. That should be 100 percent obvious to everyone, since the obvious definition of lawbreaker can have no other meaning than "some brown guy". By the way, can you clarify what kind of brown guy we're talking about here? There's a large selection, you know. There's your Mexican brown guy, your Indian brown guy (but don't be confused, there's also an Indian red guy), your Mexican brown guy, your Brazilian brown guy, and your Asian brown guy (but sometimes the Asians are also called yellow guy). I mean, when I look at someone who's breaking the law I'm afraid I only see criminal. It may be a shortcoming of mine, but the only difference I can see in whether a crime is a crime is whether it's against the laws posted in the United States, not by the offender's skin color.

I reject your attempt to label me as a racist because I feel the laws of this nation should be enforced. The only racist in the room is the one who is more concerned about the perpetrator's race than the fact that he's committing a crime.

So far as my concern over Onstar used as an example, or any other vehicle/internet interface that may be developed in the future, hackers have thoroughly taken over personal computing, and now that cell phones have become smart phones hacker activity has been on the rise because people store personal information on them. How long do you think it'll be before they decide that hacking into a car's computer to take it over is a way to make money? How fast would you authorize a charge to your debit card if a hacker took your car over, ran it up to 100MPH, and said you had 1 minute to give them your card number and password or they'd drive you into a wall? Your wife and kids are in there too. Do you think a 50 million dollar extortion against an automaker is impossible if hackers figured out how to make that car maker's vehicle go nuts and kill people, especially when the threat was going to be followed up with a web announcement that BMW refused to pay so that's why 250,000 BMWs ran people over, crossed lanes of traffic into oncoming traffic, ect at 0800 this morning? This isn't an impossible situation here.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Telco (see edit history)

[Guest Telco]

Ya know what? I think I'm gonna beat the crowd and treat this as a locked post because it's heading in that direction. Arguing with those who think we should have open borders and not have the rule of law gives me headaches anyway. But I will leave on this point: Folks that are willing to ignore our border laws aren't going to be wanting to obey our other laws, like can't drive unless licensed, can't drive unless insured, can't run stop signs and stop lights, ect. These same folks who pay so much in taxes on fake Social Security numbers are also going to be screwing up the taxes of the owner of that fake SSN. That's if they aren't working under the table. I'd rather not have the few tax dollars they generate if it means my tax dollars aren't covering emergency room visits for colds, an increased need for police, increased infrastructure wear, ect. If people from other nations want to come here legally I welcome them with open arms regardless of their color or nationality, I only ask that since they wanted to live our lifestyle that they work on integrating. If they want to live just like they did back in their home nation, let them go there to live.

I did find it curious that the so-called defender of the illegals was so quick to decide that illegal border jumpers automatically meant they were brown-skinned. And he tried to call ME a racist!

[Guest craig hewitt]

I live in detroit and see whats happening here its bad .My problem is i cant afford to by a new car even if i wanted to Buying old cars are not helping othere than over Taxing for plates. I just wish i could help I would by a Buick for sure

[Rawja]

Alright boys, this has gone too far afield to continue. Back to our regularly scheduled program: Reattas.