Why not buy American?

[RonHeberle]

Just my two cents, I never left. I never bought into all the talk about Japanese vehicles having better quality. My GM vehicles were providing very good service, I had no reason or desire to buy Japanese and could care less about what other folks said or what articles indicated which vehicles had the highest quality. Alot of times these are perception and not necessarity created with facts. Besides I always formed my own opinion which was derived from my own experince with my daily drivers. I have had quite a few through the years mostly GM,s but have had several Fords and they have all served me very well. I do my own service work and as long as I am paying the bill will purchase what I beleive is the better choice for me which has not been a Japanese vehicle and most likely will not in the very near future. This also includes lawn tractors as my choice has always been John Deere.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

In Case you didn't know, nothing runs like a Deere especially when its being chased by a Cat! KOMATSU Who? Bless you. Bet you didn't see that Cummings.

[Ronnie]

In Case you didn't know, nothing runs like a Deere especially when its being chased by a Cat! KOMATSU Who? Bless you. Bet you didn't see that Cummings.

The top of the line "little Deere's", (lawn tractors), have the reputation of running the longest when powered by cows... as in Kawasaki. :eek:

[JWC]

Let me say 1st I agree with you.

You took the words right out of my mouth, and you and I will never understand why people in this country want to send our hard earn $$$$ over sea's, or to Mexico.

People don't get get it when they say "It was built in the USA" and really don't think where the profits are going, so go ahead and buy foreign BUT don't come crying back here when you lose your job and can't support your family due to sending our dollars over sea's

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

Little Deere made to cut lawns are fawns. Mine has a Briggs and is still going strong, but alas the local dealer has gone out of business the same as his GM counterparts. Guess they don't break enough and he couldn't compete with Lowes and Home Depot. :mad:

[Sweepspear]

I would be happy to buy a car made from an American manufacture, if they built something that I want. I have no interest in four door sedans, nor do I share the same obsession for pick-up trucks or SUVs that many people seem so attached to. What I want is a mid-size or full size two door hardtop or convertible.

Every few years for fun, I take stock in what I would want to buy if I were in the market and able to afford a new car.

I was hard pressed to find an American badged car that I really would yearn for.

Probably the closest would be the Cadillac CTS. Which unless used, would be out of my price range.

I have never owned anything but American badged cars, and used to feel as strongly as the OP does in his sentiments, but as the years have gone by I have come to realize that war was lost long ago.

Life is too short.

[RonHeberle]

Your right I did not see that CAT coming however I was referring to lawn tractors but agree CAT is cool. Your right about that Kawaski engine just could not get a Kohler like I had in my orginal tractor purchased in 78. That 212 tractor is still going strong as I gave it to my brother in law. Being older I wanted hydraulics but would have gotten one powered by Kohler or similar if I could have, Kubota who?

[johnemac]

I think alot of people are fooling themselves when they rely on something is made here or there. Harleys are only"assembled in America" with parts from around the world. Then the argument is "well the money is staying in America". Are 100% of the dividends being paid only to American investors?

Many John Deere tractors were designed and built in Japan as nowdays where Cub Cadet tractors are built by Yammar Of Japan. You go to Detroit for a great V-8 and you go to Japan for a great tractor. Nationalism is great but do not be blindsided to the fact there is a convoluted money trail in the world economy that may not end up where it "should" go.

[Ronnie]

Many John Deere tractors were designed and built in Japan as nowdays where Cub Cadet tractors are built by Yammar Of Japan.

Yep, I've got a Cub Cadet and it is powered by a cow too.

[padgett]

a) Personal cars have barely made it into the '90s so let Avis handle my new car needs

Relax, once Obamanomics destroys the value of the dollar, no-one will be able to afford an import.

[Guest Bobby Valines]

God forbid we get in another world war. We would have to make jeeps and tanks or maybe we could just buy them from the japanese or German 's.

[KDirk]

Padgett,

I'd say the weak dollar argument [eventually] killing import sales had merit except that everyone (as in all major countries) is trying to drive down their domestic currency to prevent import inflation among other things; a race to the bottom as it were. Right now nobody wants a strong currency vs. anyone else's, as the first country to get one is the first to blow up their own economy unless they intend to go 100% isolationist, and that would be a very tough if not impossible road to go down even for the USA.

Just as there can be only one top rung on the ladder, there can be only one bottom rung as well. Where everyone is fighting for the bottom rung (in terms of currency valuation), all economies above the first rung will be smoked when we reach the inflection point (wherever that may be), and the debris will collapse onto whoever is at the bottom so everybody loses in the end.

Since the movie War Games was on TV the other day, I am reminded of WOPR (the computer's) last line at the end of the movie: "A strange game Dr. Falken, the only winning move is not to play". Not that this is a practical solution, but it demonstrates how we are now locked into a no-win situation with the rest of the world's economies all trying to do essentially the same thing to protect their own country's self interests. No country wants to face the pain that is coming (and it will) so anything that can be done to postpone the recognition of this fact is being undertaken with wreckless disregard.

In the long run, issues well beyond economic policy failure may preclude the importation of cars (and a lot of other things). May also prevent building any cars here for a while since supply lines for components will also be disrupted. This is not a scenario I much care to discuss publicly because it is unpopular and draws fire from all the eternal optimists. Yet it seems to be getting more likely with each passing week, as more stupid things are done by almost everyone in a position of power or control.

So ends my nightly doom and gloom report.

KDirk

[padgett]

Not doom and gloom for everyone, I'd like to see the US end-to-end structure revived. Am not isolationist just we got into this frame of mind that wall street is actually important.

We import because it is cheaper and because imports were cheaper, certain technologies were abandoned. However it was not so long ago that it could not be restarted.

Yes, we would have to work harder for things and maybe would have to forego a bigger TV every year.

Personally I think of how incredibly well off most (over 80%) of us are. Remember I grew up in Florida without air conditioning & without modern prosthetics would be thoroughly dysfunctional.

The history of this country has been a long series of runups and collapses, manipulations and counters (see Fisk & Gould and their magic printing press - where "Black Friday" began a century and a half ago.) If not I have some wonderful dry Florida building sites...

Guess it is a lot the difference between people who feel "entitled" and those who expect to work for what they get. Handicap-wannabes and disabled workers. I know both.

A lot of the problem is that we have educated a generation of "not on my watch" experts who cannot see beyond 24 months out and refuse to see that a little pain now will avert a lot later.

I do know that Florida is mostly agricultural and I can live a lot longer here without a/c than someone in Michigan can without heat.

[BrentS]

FYI: Briggs & Stratton just set up an major assembly plant in China, and laid-off hundreds of Americans. And true capatitalists know, that in the long run, that was a good move for both countries involved.

All those who still believe there is even such a concept as "buy American", really need a macro-economics lesson, or two. It has been proven by quite some time now (I forget the name of the economist), that countries should embrace the business that they DO BEST, and trade with other countries for the business that they cannot compete in. The U.S. has already ventured down that road quite a bit........as we are now predminantly a SERVICE INDUCSTRY nation.

I didn't want to have to go back to college when I was 32 years old.......but, you know what?.............TOO FREAKIN' BAD! I did it, and so be it, many others will have to, or face difficult times. Career changes are more often required in this era. Things will continue to change at an even fast pace......as time goes on. Soon, China will be thought of a top-level manufacturer, just like Japan is now.

So, it is very UN-AMERICAN to attempt to hinder the unevitable forces of Global Trade. You would be hurting yourselves, as well as your fellow countrymen (or, women, to be P.C.).

p.s. Don't know about you all, but I have Global Investment in my 401K funds, as part of my diversifying. Even U.S. companies invest in foreign entities. The Global Economy is here...........

If you do a wiki search for "comparative advantage", there's a good write-up there. It was Ricardo, who I was thinking of............my brains getting soft....

Edited February 23, 2010 by BrentS
Found it.. (see edit history)

[jonlabree]

FYI: Briggs & Stratton just set up an major assembly plant in China, and laid-off hundreds of Americans.

How can that be good for Americans

[padgett]

and Buick is the most popular car line in China.

[BrentS]

Like I said......I really would recommend studying global economics/business , etc. There is so much more academic work being done on the benefits of global trade nowadays, that my MBA degree had great emphasis on it.....about 8 of the 16 courses had to do with global business (marketing, finance, economics, mgt., organizational behavior, etc. etc.

Ex. If the cost of the briggs & stratton engine goes from $100 to $70, because it's assembled in China; and there's 1.2 million of these engines sold in the U.S. (even more throughout the world), think of the savings to the consumers...........at the cost of only 400 people's jobs........who, in the end, should get another job........eventually.

You have to look at the BIG picture.

It's the same mistake, as when this govt inacted the cash for clunkers program; did they realize the amount of energy and by-products consumed/produced in the manufacturing of an automobile........when they thought it was environmentally beneficial to junk these cars simply because they had low mileage??? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT............

[jonlabree]

So your saying that the cost of this product went down by $30.00 and we ONLY get 400 more people on unemployment that we working stiff have to pay for. Makes sense to me??????????

[wws944]

...Ex. If the cost of the briggs & stratton engine goes from $100 to $70, because it's assembled in China; and there's 1.2 million of these engines sold in the U.S. (even more throughout the world), think of the savings to the consumers...........at the cost of only 400 people's jobs........who, in the end, should get another job........eventually.

Exactly. And every time your local/state/federal government enacts some new regulation or tax, it raises the Cost of Goods Sold (COGS) and further tips the balance in favor of moving production out of state, and even out of the country.

You have to look at the BIG picture.

It's the same mistake, as when this govt inacted the cash for clunkers program; did they realize the amount of energy and by-products consumed/produced in the manufacturing of an automobile........when they thought it was environmentally beneficial to junk these cars simply because they had low mileage??? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT............

I have to say that most of the cash-for-clunkers cars that I've seen in the Pick-N-Pull yard, you can tell them by the spray painted engines, were pretty clunkery and probably needed to be scrapped. But there have been reports of some pretty nice vehicles that were clunkered too, and that makes a "car guy" like me squirm. (For example: I saw a late model clunkered Jag in the yard with a few dents in it that could easily have been fixed. Made me cringe to see that beautiful engine with purple spray paint all over it...) And, of course, it was a yet another massive waste of taxpayer dollars in terms of the way it was administered, how much it cost, and what the long term benefits actually were.

Edited February 23, 2010 by wws944 (see edit history)

[BrentS]

Yes, if the clunker was one of those cars that would burn a quart of oil every few days........by all means, get that thing off the road. But, when it comes to environmental/political policies, studies, incentives, etc., I have yet to hear anyone really look into the whole manufacturing cycle.....i.e. the Big Picture.

Remember when they told us to use plastic bags at the supermarket, instead of paper bags?.......to save a tree? Ha! Now, everyone knows that trees are actually "renewable resources", and completely biodegradeable. Oh, how the feable-minded will follow suit.......

Look into W. Edwards Deming..........what a great story about a brilliant man who did much of his work to teach Japan about Quality.............pretty interesting how long it took the Big 3 to listen to Deming.

Also, Wiki has a great example of "comparative advantage", and it actually proves that even if a country can mfr all the things more efficiently, it STILL benefits BOTH countries to do trade. A wild concept, but now widely accepted. (of course the assumptions are free-market, full competition, etc...)

I can't believe that people are actually listening to my rantings.....

[wws944]

...Also, Wiki has a great example of "comparative advantage", and it actually proves that even if a country can mfr all the things more efficiently, it STILL benefits BOTH countries to do trade. A wild concept, but now widely accepted. (of course the assumptions are free-market, full competition, etc...)

The problem is that, as Mike mentioned, uneven trade barriers are a fact of life. For decades it didn't matter that much. But now it is front and center.

I can't believe that people are actually listening to my rantings.....

Well, I heard it all when I took Econ 101 in college. Something I fear that most of our politicians have either slept through, or have never taken in the first place. (One notable exception: my former congressman Tom Campbell. He got his PhD in economics from none other than Milton Friedman. Even democrats respect his fiscal knowledge.)

[Guest Telco]

Wow, did this go spinning away while I was off! Thanks to the fellow way back there that posted about the hidden stuff at Toyota. Really eye opening. Unfortunately it doesn't do much to change my thinking. Not because it's Toyota so it's got to be good, but because there's little out there that matches the particular car I want.

If Buick would bring back a Reatta and offer it as a hard top convertible with rear wheel drive, it would be hard for me to not pick it over the Lexus, because even though I'm currently not a GM fan, I've always had a soft spot for Buick. My first car was a 72 Skylark.

A little background as well. Up until 2001 I was what GM dreamed of as a customer. I was a downright rabid GM fan. I wore branded clothes. I knew where every GM dealer was for a hundred miles, but didn't know where any other dealer was. When I shopped for cars, it was GM only. If someone suggested I look at other brands, them was fightin' words!

But, then I made the mistake of buying new ones, in 1999 and 2000. Both were huge lemons and both were huge headaches. GM refused to work with me on them, totally ignored the problems, claimed the problems were features, or claimed the problems were within specs. After being treated like a whiner for daring to complain, and not really having the time to deal with lemon law crap, I just went back to used vehicles.

It was a huge disappointment to me how GM treated me on the two cars I bought new. I had similar problems with a new Ford that had a defective transmission.

Do I sound like a whiner? Well, I'm not. I didn't have time to keep messing with warranty issues like I was. However, when I buy a vehicle with a warranty, I do expect it to be honored. I'm not taking time off from work to bring a vehicle in because I'm bored, it's because I have a problem that needs to be addressed. What I have found is that the dealer techs were only blind to WARRANTY work, non-warranty work they are pretty good at. But wait, this means that it's not a GM issue but a dealer issue, right? Wrong, because GM zone reps were also denying that they saw an issue. Besides, I don't care about the whole franchise thing. If the dealer is GM, then it's GM doing it. GM doesn't get to deny responsibility because they have franchisees, they are still going to get the blame because it's their name on the door, it's their name on the sign, and it's their name on the car.

I still like my old GMs, and I still buy GMs AFTER they are off dealer warranty. GM has to make major changes before I'll buy a new GM again with the possible exception of a rear wheel drive, hardtop retractable convertible 2+2 or Reatta-ish 2 seater. V8 would be preferred, but a decent running V6 will work as well.

I still have a beef with the union involvement, mainly for driving prices so much higher than they need to be. It doesn't take that much skill to install lugnuts. If I offended any union folks with this, ...

One last thing. Given a choice between American investors and foreign workers making money and foreign investors and American workers making money, I'd prefer the American working stiff make money over an American investor. The working guy is the one actually working, not sitting on his duff, so I do seek out products made in America using American sourced materials as first choice. But if I get screwed in the deal, that company gets no more of my business even if they're the only ones made in America.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Telco
Added info (see edit history)

[BrentS]

I would be interested in seeing a true muscle car come back..........but, it seems highly doubtful........now with all this insane environmental craze this country is going through...

I want a large full-size, 2-door passenger car, with a large powerful GAS engine (non hybrid). But, it would truly have to be a FULL size.

[padgett]

Takes all kinds. It would really take a Fiero proportioned vehicle with a small (90-120 cid) turbo diesel, RWD is fine if it is also rear/mid engined to get me interested.

Personally have never seen any purpose for an engine larger than 300 cid. Have had a number of 400s (still have one and a couple of spare engines) but to me it has always been overkill.

Also prefer the sound of a six to an eight (ten, twelve, etc) but a 750cc triple has its place as well (one of the papers I developed for GM concluded that the ideal cylinder size for a N/A regular fuel pump gas engine was between approximately 400 and 600 cc, slightly undersquare), and the ideal CR was 9:1 (this was before VVT and knock sensors).

This would have allowed a broad commonality of piece parts and simple assembly lines. There was little interest.

[Guest Mc_Reatta]

I guess the bottom line is you can't buy American anymore. You may think you are, but your just kidding yourself. The idea that if you buy the American based company's product at least the profit stays here doesn't hold much water. That profit goes to towards the IRS, higher executive saleries, bonuses, wall street investors, and Tiger Woods like advertising spokesmen and Madison Ave types. Other than the trickle down affect that someone will polish their shoes and mow their lawns with fawns, that doesn't help the typical American worker very much. American companies don't reinvest profits in R & D an anywhere near the rate they should to stay ahead.

In the good old days, the two things that America had that couldn't be touched was the best post secondary technical education available anywhere, as well as the workforce with the best value (productivity, quality, cost) in the world.

The world beat a path to our shores to garner an education and took it back home with them to match our ability to inovate on their own. That gave them amoung other things the ability to make industrial equipment that leveled the playing field for productivity of non American workers. They embraced the teachings they learned here about improving quality to the point that their quality was better than ours without a doubt. That just left the American worker to compete on cost, and now you can figure out why we lost all the manufacturing jobs we have.

But there is one other important concept that we have exported as well. Corporate greed. Remember when we started losing all those jobs it was to Japan, then Korea who undercut them when the Japenese worker started to demand higher wages. Then it was on to the Philippines, Maylasia, Formosa, now China. Seems like productivity and quality are easily transportable, and corporations will export them to the next area with the workers willing to work the cheapest to maximize profits, not to benifit their workforce.

Used to be a man started a company to make a good living for himself and take pride in what he created and took care of the workers that allowed him to achieve sucess. Didn't Henry Ford provide low cost housing for his employees, build schools for their children and pay them a decient wage so they could afford one of the cars they help make? When was the last time you heard of a company anywhere in the world doing that?

In the old days a Japanese businessman who did what it was just revealed that Toyota did in covering up their product flaws allowing customers to be killed in the process would have had to commit hari kari from the shame. Now it seems that they are prepared to fly their coporate jets to Washington to be asked some questions from our esteemed Senate Investigation Committes, just like their American counterparts do. They also figured out that it's more profitable to pay off some lawsuites rather that fix the defects. I would not have believed that the high moral cultural tradition of Japan could have turned around 180 degrees in such a short time. Can Enron Japan be far behind?

Toyota will now be forced to increase their advertising to recover from the loss of sales from all this, so at least some american actors, advertising firms and TV stations will reap some benifits. Maybe Buick will release Tiger Woods so he can aide them in their new advertising campaigns.

I'm not so sure this whole mess is a ladder, but rather a Ferris Wheel. What goes around comes around, but it moves so slowly that it seems to only move slightly over decades.

My advice, buy the best valued product that suits your needs from where ever it comes. Use any money you save to by produce from you local farmers cooperatives, eat out at you local restaurants and tip as best you can, and pay to have you lawn mowed by your neighbors kid. (Who hopefully doesn't use a Honda mower.) At least then you know that some of your money is staying here and helping your fellow Americans. We have become a service oriented country, so they best way to keep your money here is to buy those services and downplay buying products as much as practical. Make your Reatta last another 20 years by having it serviced, rather than buying a new car at all. Just pick the right mechanic.

[BrentS]

I would just disagree on the: "What goes around comes around, but it moves so slowly that it seems to only move slightly over decades."

That's one thing that hasn't happened........things are NOT moving slowly........businesses are transforming at a faster and faster rate.....kinda like an exponential rate.

The gains that China made in the past 10 years are astounding............the likes of which have never been seen.

Even the largest of corporations.........the Microsofts......the Exxon Mobiles......the Firestones..........the Toyotas.......the GM's...........are not immune to the forces of busniness..............especially global business.

[reattadudes]

Telco,

I'm a little confused by your thinking. you would continue to buy a car from a company that has endanged literally millions of lives, and they continue to deny the real problem?

perhaps you need to go to the ABC News web site, and watch the video of reporter Brian Ross driving a Toyota Avalon that has been rigged to duplicate the unintended acceleration problem. Toyota still continues to deny there is any issue at all with any engine control problem.

by the way, the same engineer performed exactly the same procedure on "those lowly, problem ridden GM cars". the verdict: not a single thing happened.

your issues with GM quite confusing. as a former new car dealer, let me explain how the internal warranty process works. dealers jump at warranty work for two reasons:

1) the factory is paying, and you don't have to convince a customer to have the work done.

2) the factory pays full retail labor rates to the dealer. technicians couldn't care less who is paying the bill, as they get paid the same commission whether it is warranty work or not.

the only time there is a glitch in the system is for one of three reasons:

1) the dealer is a jerk.

2) the zone rep is a jerk.

3) the claim's cause is questionable.

the first two can be avoided by either taking the car to a different dealer, or asking to meet with the zone rep in person, face-to-face. if you still can't get any satisfaction, ask to MEET with their superior. NO PHONE CALLS, EVER. FACE-TO-FACE ONLY. they will NEVER SAY NO IN PERSON, unless the claim is obviously from abuse.

on this point, let me give an example. as many of you know, when the 1987 Allante came out, it wasn't exactly well-received. I wasn't aware that there were hundreds still sitting at ports in the US for years. in 1989, Roger Penske Cadillac (now defunct) in Downey, California (Los Angeles suburb) bought the last 200 1987 Allantes from GM. they ran full page ads in the Los Angeles Times, and offered these still new cars for $29,995. considering the cars had a sticker price around $60,000, this was a great deal.

I bought one.

honestly, it was the absolute worst car I've ever owned. the service at Penske was fantastic (they had a whole separate Allante service department). if you needed an engine replacement (I needed four) they had the car back in less than 24 hours, and you got a free Cadillac loaner, too. after a year, four engines, five transmissions, and a myriad of plastic parts either breaking (many of the plastic interior parts felt like a combination of plaster and plastic), or melting (tail lamps, both from bulb heat inside, and sunlight heat outside), I had enough.

I asked the service manager what day the zone rep would be there. the reps are on a fixed schedule, and the service managers know what days they will be there. I waited for him to arrive, and calmly yet firmly explained the issues I was having, and brought my now 1" think service records to prove my point. it is also critical at this time to mention how happy you have been with that particular brand's products. if you trash them, count on getting nothing. I knew what was coming next.

I got the "today and today only speech", that's "today, and today only, we (the factory) will give you full credit (minus tax and license) toward any new Cadillac you buy today". I drove home in a new red 1990 El Dorado Touring Coupe. and for those who think I only got this because I was another GM dealer, I wasn't. I sold Dodges. this same thing happens every day, regardless of make.

most dealers can easily solve reason #3 if they want to. all dealers keep a fund for good customers (we kept $150,000 in ours) that is strictly to pay for repairs that the factory didn't want to cover.

there are exceptions to this rule:

-we wouldn't pay a nickel towards anything that looked like abuse or neglect.

-we wouldn't pay a nickel towards anyone who was a jerk, swore at an employee, or threatened physical harm to anyone at the dealership.

we preferred to only do it for customers who bought the vehicle from us, but we had no problem helping someone who had their trip interrupted, or recently moved into our area from out of state.

I've never heard of anyone who preferred to buy a car without the factory warranty; I would never leave the lot with a new car without buying the factory extended warranty. the vehicles I have now (GM, Chrysler, Dodge, Nissan) all have factory extended warranties. I've never used a single one in the past twenty years, but for $1500-$2000, its the best insurance you could buy. if you sell the car privately before the warranty expires, having that transferrable extended warranty will make your vehicle sell very quickly.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited February 24, 2010 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[padgett]

1967 Chevrolet V8 (one of the first recalls), Audi 5000, what's new ?

[Guest Telco]

Mike, the reason I would still be willing to look at the Lexus is because there aren't many rear wheel drive hard top retractables on the market. Besides, I know how to deal with a runaway throttle. I'm surprised the cop died in the one. How hard would it have been to shift into neutral? I could care less if the engine blew, better the engine than me, my passengers and the whole car.

On the dealer warranty work, I've only been abusive in one instance. I'm a pretty easygoing fellow, and know that the guy with the attitude gets the worst service. So, I'm not that bad customer. I do insist that my issues be covered though. I act the exact same way when I go to a dealer mechanic for non-warranty work, which I do have to do from time to time. The only time I've ever had problems getting work done is when a warranty claim is involved, AND it didn't matter which dealer I went to. They all act the same. They are total incompetents right up to the day the warranty expires, then it's like a dam opened up when I'm the one writing the check. Suddenly they know my vehicle better than I do. It's astounding to me really that they can act as they do and still look themselves in the mirror.

The time I was abusive was when I had the Ford, I took the service manager out for a test drive and showed him the problem. The problem was on a 93 Cougar V8, when driving moderately the transmission would flare horribly on the 3-4 shift, then slam into gear. If you punched it when it flared it would hit the redline. It was also very easy to duplicate on demand. His fix on that ride was to quit driving it at 45MPH, when most non-interstate roads in the area were 45MPH roads. When we got back to the dealership he told me that the car he had promised would be available was gone, that the owner's son had taken all their loaners. I lost it and slammed him against the wall, and told him he was going to come up with one or I was going to beat the XXXX out of him on the spot. 5 minutes later I was out the door with a rental, and 3 days later I picked up my car with no change at all in the problem. But I started that process out nice too, this incident occurred right around the last time I took it to that dealer.

They claim they rebuilt the transmission a half dozen times but never fixed it, but also never would replace the transmission. I test drove a couple of other cars with the same type transmission, none of them had the problem. I think there was a case flaw that a new transmission would have fixed, but they wouldn't do it. That was the last Ford I ever bought, so because of that one experience I've not set foot on a Ford dealership with the intent to buy a new vehicle since 1993. Wouldn't even have looked at Ford then, but the only rear wheel drive car on the GM lots in our price range were Caprices and we hated them. Had I known then what I know now we'd have just bought a full size Blazer and been done with it.

Since I was such a rabid GM fan they had a couple of chances, and blew them both. I've not been on a GM lot to look at buying a new vehicle since 2000, and would ONLY consider another GM again IF they came out with a rear wheel drive Reatta-type hard top retractable convertible. Otherwise, they have nothing that I'm willing to risk the warranty nightmare for. I'd rather just be the second owner of a GM product, let the first owner take the 60+ percent depreciation, and use the savings to take care of repairs myself. Going at it this way means 90 percent of my issues are fixed right the first time, 99 percent of what's left is fixed right the second time. It's rare that I ever have to go back in a third time.

[Ronnie]

Mike, the reason I would still be willing to look at the Lexus is because there aren't many rear wheel drive hard top retractables on the market. Besides, I know how to deal with a runaway throttle. I'm surprised the cop died in the one. How hard would it have been to shift into neutral? I could care less if the engine blew, better the engine than me, my passengers and the whole car.

If you believe the testimony of the lady in the video that would not have helped. She testified under oath.

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com

[reattadudes]

Telco,

"you'd shift into neutral".

guess what?

the transmission is not cable operated. it is also "drive by wire". the electronic impluses from the gear shift go thru the same computer that is telling the engine "wide open throttle". it isn't listening to your request, either.

in the case of the Tennessee woman, her husband said he tried to start the car again, and it was ready to take off, in gear. it did not require a shift into park or neutral for it to start.

perhaps this makes it somewhat easier to understand what horror the California Highway Patrol officer (certified high speed pursuit instructor) was going thru the day of the horrific crash that killed he and his family. I have no doubt he tried everything possible, just like any of us would have done.

it also begs the question: does the push button start (which requires you to hold the button for at least five seconds) go thru the same computer? if it does, could the desire to turn off the engine be overridden by the haywire computer?

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

[Ronnie]

If I had one of those vehicles, and no other means of transportation, I would be in my garage right now rigging a toggle switch to break the power going to the computer in the event it is needed to prevent the computer from taking over control of the car.

[Guest Telco]

Wow... not even in reverse. Yes, I didn't know the whole deal on the problem.

It'll be a few years before I actually get into a new sports car, hopefully the problem is fixed by then. Unfortunately, there aren't too many alternatives out there. Guess I could also just pick up an old muscle car and put up with a ragtop, but I really want a hardtop retractable. Don't like the current Mercedes CLKs much.

Crap.

Ronnie, that manual kill switch would be a good idea if you owned one. It would need to break both the battery and alternator connections to drop all power. I think I'd also set it up to ground out the fuel injectors for good measure. Looks like the best thing to do if you don't own one is to keep on looking. Picking up an earlier SC-430 and reworking the drivetrain is an option as well.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Telco (see edit history)

[padgett]

There used to be this axe by IBM power leads...

That said I know of no faster way to stop a car than to spin it and WOT would help.

Have been to evasive, high speed pursuit, and racing courses. (learned a lot from Dick Turner particularly "Slow Hands") and they are all different. Spinniing was not part of any, just something that comes naturally to a squirrel.

Wonder what effect a Tazer would have ?

[sfair]

Yes, I didn't know the whole deal on the problem.

.

I think that you are in a very crowded boat...including the folks at Toyota!

[Guest steveskyhawk]

Many of you ARE MISSING the point. TOYOTA KNEW and covered it up.

[padgett]

Just an observation: "Tell me three times" is a control dictate that is over 50 years old. When I was designing flight controls we had four computers so that even if a second failed the vote would be correct.

With one computer, you can never detect a failure that is within limits (and WOT is within limits). What is surprising is that there does not seem to be a brake or trans override to limit authority incase of a malfunction.

Since WOT is definately a "safety of flight" consideration, any design I would approve would need a final interlock that must be removed for any throttle opening over 20% to occur and which would have an override capability (spring return to zero and a relay that needs to be active would be appropriate. This would be an independant loop through service brake, parking brake, and trans position. IAC could provide a "limp home" capability with limited authority.

This stuff is elementary to anyone who ever designed aircraft controls. Would be surprised if something similar did not exist at automakers.

Expect a recall but would not be surprised if the response is trivial. After all GM's recall in the '60s just added a short piece of chain.

[Ronnie]

Mr Toyoda is testifying on CSPAN3 now if anyone is interested.

[Guest Road mister]

I am from a large military and law enforcement family. I have worked in both union and non-union construction and love my country. The Cash for Clunker program cost us tax paying Americans 48 Billion Dollars. A lot of good cars were crushed by law and many thousands of tons of steel was shipped to China. THE NUMBER ONE AND NUMBER TWO BEST SELLING CARS DURING THE PROGRAM WERE,

HONDA & TOYOTA. The same lawmakers THAT APPROVED a bill that helped the foreign car market more then our own are the same idiots that are now calling them before a committee, what a BS performance.

My buddy has a small family owned auto parts business, taking all those old cars off the road, hurt that and the repair industry also.

Our lawmakers are spending our money like crazy; the counties deficit is past 13 Trillion dollars. The word, a Billion is nothing now. Did you know a billion minutes ago you could have a conversation Jesus?

A better question is what is American?

GM was bailed out by money printed by the Federal Reserve at the cost of paper and ink.

We, will have to pay them back with real earned money plus interest.

The Federal Reserve is a privately owned bank and its major owners are families like the Rothschild’s from Europe.

In California, for every American baby being born there are two Illegal babies being born and then they are automatically Americans with full benefits. That State is in such debt the working people just got another 10% of their income deducted in taxes.

<!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--> <!--[endif]--><o>></o>>

California guys, tell the rest of us, how bad it is.

Buying a specific car is not going save this country, and whining and moaning at each other isn’t going to help either.

Getting out and voting all these bums out is the only hope we have.

Feel free to respond via private e-mail for any data or sources.

John C

Edited February 25, 2010 by Road mister (see edit history)

[Howard]

As mentioned in my earlier post, I own a 2006 Toyota Solara. A sub model in the Camry class. As far as I can tell, my year model does not seem to be affected by recalls. At least at this point. Last summer when I read about the CHIP officer who was killed along with his family, I decided to try a little experiment. I took my car on the Interstate and 'floored" it simulating unattended acceleration. I shifted the car into neutral and the engine raced to red line. The computer started to shut the fuel pump off and on as not to over rev the engine. Just like our 20 year old Reattas. By shifting my car, at least a 2006, I would have been able to control it. This might not be the case on the 2009/10s. Experiment number two, I did the same thing and tried to apply the brakes. You could tell that the brakes were adding some stopping power, but the car could not be stopped. Needless to say, I only applied the brakes for a few moments, but I'm convinced if my experiment were a real world incident, I would not have been able to control my car with brakes only. The only reason I have a Toyota was, at the time, it was the only maker that offered a nice mid-size two door. I too worked at dealerships for many years. One of the stores I worked for in the 1980s was a Lincoln/Mercury/Toyota/Mazda/Subaru/Jaguar dealership. When we sold a Toyota or Subaru we never saw it again. The L/M's and Mazda were really not too bad, but did seem to have some issues. As the Comptroller of the firm, I had use of a company Demo. I always tried to choose a Lincoln Town-Car, or Grand Marquis Coupe. They would not let me have a Mark. I had many. Every Toyota I had seemed to have issues and awful A/C units. The A/C's are now great, by I alway used to tell people, that US cars have the best A/C units. You noticed I did not mention Jaguar. One word for them, junk. Just awful cars during the period. JRT did not have the funds to pay warranty claims in full, so they would pay only parts of them over time. When the Jaguars were running, they were wonderful driving and riding cars, but you needed two. One to drive while the other one was in the shop. Going back to the original topic. I would gladly buy a Ford or GM product. I'm not sure about Chrysler. I'm of the opinion that their days are numbered. I hope that is not the case, but all of the products are getting long in the tooth, heavily tilted to gas hogs, and their mid size styling, awful. Then there is the cheap interior plastics. I want a mid to full size two door in the vein of the pre 1977 Thunderbird, or more recent Riviera, something like that. Not really much out there like that in any brand. If I were to settle on a four door, my choice hands down is an American car. The current Buick LaCrosse is fantastic inside and out. The good news, the price tag is not too bad either.