Why not buy American?

[jonlabree]

You know I really get upset when I read that another person has or is going to buy a new Japanese, German or foreign auto.

I am of the opinion that all of those people should read the history of the Second World War. I myself, knowing the history of that war, cannot bring myself to buy a Japanese or German auto. They might learn just what they are supporting by buying a Japanese car or for that matter a German car. The only reason the foreign auto makers are in this position is because the United State paid to put them there. If we had not given them the money and equipment they would not be able to compete with the US auto makers now. The new US autos are just as good if not better than the German and Japanese autos. If you insist on sending your money to Japan, I certainly can’t stop you, but consider this. Every dollar you send their weakens the US, (That’s Yours) economy. And don’t give me the excuse that “But they are built in the US” When you know as well as I do the ALL the profits go to Japan or Germany. Or that they are giving us thousands jobs. If they were not building and selling car here then the US auto makers would have a lot more jobs for US auto workers.

In my humble option ALL that continue to buy these cars are TRATIORS!!!:mad:

Edited February 20, 2010 by Rawja (see edit history)

[JohnD1956]

I suppose your car is ok because it was built in Europe? God only knows where my LaCrosse was built.

[jonlabree]

ALL my cars were built in the USA. Your LaCrosse was built here or parts in Canada,

[Rawja]

knowing the history of that war, cannot bring myself to buy a Japanese or German auto.

Ummmm the war ended what is it 65 years ago? How long do you feel it is appropriate to hold the grudge? Should one avoid British vehicles as retribution for them burning down Washington DC?

They might learn just what they are supporting by buying a Japanese car or for that matter a German car.

So buying a 2010 Mercedes indicates support for the Third Reich? Does the money fall through a wormhole and go back to the 1940s?

Look, I totally agree with you on the whole "buy American" thing. But inflammatory rhetoric and racial slurs (edited out of your post by me) is no way to bring people around to your cause. Detroit frittered away their market dominance themselves. Being angry at their competitors for making "better" products is pathetic. Being angry at consumers for choosing to purchase the product they believe best suits their needs is antithetical to the precepts of "free market" capitalism that is constantly being proclaimed as among the highest ideals of our consumerist society.

The fact is that the furrin' makes made vehicles that better suited the needs of the consumer, the domestics had a long stretch of making vehicles that didn't and it's going to be a long hard road regaining market share, though we'll never see them return to the levels of market dominance that they enjoyed say 50 years ago, and that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[handmedownreatta]

aren't most of the parts in a new ford made in mexico?

[jonlabree]

If you love the japaness and German autos so much, why don't you live there and you can have a first hand experience.

[jonlabree]

Buy the way, If you lived there you would find out how much they "Love US".

[Rawja]

If you love the japaness and German autos so much, why don't you live there and you can have a first hand experience.

First off, as I stated above I'm a "buy American" guy, for the very economic reasons you espoused earlier as well as the fact that American cars "speak" to me in a way that foreign makes generally do not.

My present fleet:

'84 Cadillac Seville Elegante (Linden NJ)

'88 Buick Reatta (Lansing MI)

'92 Buick Skylark GS (Lansing MI)

'94 Pontiac Trans Sport SE (Tarrytown NY)

Accepting the fact that my automotive desires are atypical of the average car buyer is only logical given the fact that all of the above vehicles were relatively unsuccessful in the marketplace. That many preferred the competitors to my chosen products indicates nothing about the character of those making the choice any more than me having an all-American automotive fleet gives me the right to consider myself more patriotic than someone who drives a Camry.

Buy the way, If you lived there you would find out how much they "Love US".

Actually they do love us, in both countries. They might take exception to some of our more belligerent foreign policies, but on the whole both cultures are steeped in Americana.

Methinks you've crossed over that fine line mentioned in your sig.

[Bushwack]

Sheesh! Lighten up. It's a global economy.

I had similar sentiments back in 1992 (Chevy Cavalier) and 2000 (Buick Regal GS). If I have to explain the poor quality of the Cavalier, then there are bigger problems for us all.

Came 2000 and was on the fence between a Maxima and the Regal GS. Went with the 'stay american' theme. I liked the Regal (best bang for the buck at time of purchase which included a $4,500 rebate) but its numerous out-of warranty problems (various electrical and ABS related) were terribly expensive to repair (car had 60,000 miles in six years). To make those repairs would have cost $2,900 on a car valued at $4,500. Thank you Carmax for buying the car (FWIW...it stayed on various dealer lots in Scottsdale, El Paso, Portland and eventually sold 13 months later in Seattle for $4,000 and 62K on the odometer).

Now its 2007 and it was either a Lexus GS 350, Acura RL, Infiniti M or a Cadillac CTS. The Cadillac (both quality and value) didn't measure up to any of the other three. I still wanted to go American but not at the excessive expense of my hard earned dollars.

This summer I will give back my leased Lexus and look to purchase a similar sedan in the $55K - $65K range. Other then the 'made in America' Cadillac CTS or the soon-to-be-discontinued and poorly equipped STS, what other value options are there?

Yea...it's a global economy.

[Guest Telco]

Offended that the only new car I'd buy today is a Lexus? Sorry, but that's the way it is. GM screwed me twice on new cars by refusing to honor the warranties. Ford did so on one vehicle. Toyota has never given me a problem. Why should I buy a substandard product just because it's made by an American company that's sending jobs overseas as fast as it can? If GM wants my business back they can start building decent vehicles for a decent price again. Right now, my 1989 Reatta is far more reliable than my 2000 Silverado. The truck keeps breaking, the Reatta keeps going with little complaint. My three Toyotas, on the other hand, keep going with NO complaint. So yes, if I had to buy a new car today it would be a Lexus. When GM wants to step up to the plate and build a decent, reliable, attractive rear wheel drive car again without pricing it for more than I've paid for houses, AND make a commitment to honor their warranties again, I'll look at them again. Until then, let them go under. Perhaps if the Big 3 went under and wiped the unions out, we can get a decent automotive industry in this nation again.

In the meantime, I will continue to search out American made products first. Just not in automobiles, and that's 100 percent due to the actions and attitudes of the US automakers. I do NOT owe them a living!

[Rawja]

Perhaps if the Big 3 went under and wiped the unions out, we can get a decent automotive industry in this nation again.

I also fail to understand the antipathy towards the UAW. The "Big 3" failed due to decisions made at the top, not due to lack of effort from the rank-and-file worker as any one of the many UAW members who participate on these forums can attest.

[Jim]

I have owned in my lifetime over 800 automobiles. Back in the early 70's I bought a used Plymouth Cricket which was actually a Hillman Minx. About 3 years ago I bought a used VW beetle because it has a diesel engine and I get 50 MPG. That is the only two foreign cars I have owned.

There used to be a saying ( racing ) "win on Sunday, sell on Monday' or something like that. My thoughts are race on Sunday boycott on Monday. All this mess Toyota has gotten themselves into by hiding the defects in my opinion is terrific.

On Monday I do not shop at NAPA, Home Depot, buy Red Bull products and so on.

The other day I was coming out of the Post Office and I would have had to walk between my car and a big red Toyota PU with a big Toyota script on the top of the windshield. The woman obviously liked her Toyota. She had just started her engine and I waited and waved for her to pull out. She wondered what I was doing so I told her I didn't want to endanger my life by walking in front of a Toyota.

McDonalds had a slogan " I'm loving it " Toyotas mess, I'm loving it.

[Guest Telco]

As a non-union worker that has to deal with union workers on a regular basis, let's just say I have a hard time expressing my feelings about union workers in a non-offensive manner and leave it at that. Unions had their place in time but I don't think that time is now, anymore. Being told "that ain't my job", having wiring ripped out by a union guy just because a customer hired a non-union guy to run a cross connect, there's thousands of stories I could go on about. It would be best if we don't open that kettle.

To keep it more general, the unions have forced wages and benefits up in the good times, but fight any decreases in bad times. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be paid less this year than last year either, but I see this as killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. I would rather take a pay cut than see my company go under and lose everything. It wasn't until it was negotiate or go out of business that the UAW began giving concessions.

This by no means lays the blame at the feet of the unions though, corporate GM, Ford and the lesser guys are also all to blame. As unsustainable as union pay and benefits have become, the beancounter mentality of making the quarterly numbers for Wall Street is more damaging. A big bonus today is worth the whole company tomorrow is their mantra. Well, tomorrow finally came. I will continue to buy older GM products, but I've not been on a showroom to buy a new GM in years.

[Guest Telco]

Incidentally, here is a breakdown of the difference between GM and foreign. A 2010 Impala LTZ goes for 31,600 dollars, but a 2009 Impala LTZ with 15K miles is only worth 13,190 - $16,465 for a trade-in. How is a new one worth 31 grand if it's only worth 52 percent of that when you drive it off the lot? At least the Lexus I want is 37,595 new with a trade value of 25,375 - $29,745, which is worth 79 percent of the new price. This is why I think a foreign model is better than a domestic model, because they are better.

I used the IS350, but the car I want is the IS C 350, which I don't think was available last year.

[Guest Bobby Valines]

Im from Detroit left there because of lack of work. I had the same good paying job for 17 years. Now I'm living in Florida and making about half the money. I took some ones job. I have ask people down here why the buy foreign cars the most common answer is they make better cars, then I ask about the American economy and the tell me that it does not affect them. My 2002 has 80,000 mi. runs like new and looks like new had to change front brakes and battery about a month ago that's it. To say the American economy doesn't affect any one living in America is just stupid. Most people around where I live now drive foreign cars about 25 mi north of Miami and most the Americans here are from New York that being said. MSN did a survey the most inconsiderate drivers in America is New York that just took over Miami. Take a guess what I think about people that buy foreign cars.

Edited February 20, 2010 by Bobby Valines (see edit history)

[Doug Harness]

My Dad fought in 5 major campaigns during WWII. He was wounded twice, the second time in sight of the German border. He came home with a Silver Star, a Bronze Star, and a Purple Heart with Oak Leaf Cluster. He also came home with permanent damage to one leg from a shrapnel wound and the effects of trench foot that bothered him the rest of his life.

One of my best memories of my Dad involved a German car. When my wife and I married, she had a 65 VW. It had some body rust, so I got the bright idea of replacing it with a spare 59 VW body that my cousin had from a dune buggy conversion. I had been told that the bodies were interchangeable, but we didn’t count on the wiring being drastically different. We left the car at my cousin’s until the next weekend so we could figure out what to do. With the help of a neighbor (also a WWII vet), my Dad towed the VW to his house and completely re-wired it during the evenings after work. When I arrived there the next weekend, the car was running and everything electrical was working. Of course, that electrical system was a lot simpler than a Reatta.

<O:p></O:p>

I don’t think Dad thought that my bride was a traitor for having a German car in the early 70’s. I don’t think he considered me a traitor because I owned a Honda motorcycle then. If he were alive today, he probably wouldn’t consider his grandson a traitor for working at the Toyota plant in Kentucky since 1987. One of the things I loved about my Dad was that he was pretty laid-back, and I believe he recognized that the war ended in 1945.

[Guest dpannell]

I don't normally get involved in these conversations but...........

As a non-union worker that has to deal with union workers on a regular basis, let's just say I have a hard time expressing my feelings about union workers in a non-offensive manner and leave it at that. Unions had their place in time but I don't think that time is now, anymore. Being told "that ain't my job", having wiring ripped out by a union guy just because a customer hired a non-union guy to run a cross connect, there's thousands of stories I could go on about. It would be best if we don't open that kettle.

To keep it more general, the unions have forced wages and benefits up in the good times, but fight any decreases in bad times. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be paid less this year than last year either, but I see this as killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. I would rather take a pay cut than see my company go under and lose everything. It wasn't until it was negotiate or go out of business that the UAW began giving concessions. "

This is not what is happening today....I work for a company who made a record 13+ billion dollars last year and is on course for higher profits this year ....only because it is taking a substantial amount of money from its employees for ...you guessed it.....healthcare. I could go on.......... and the Union is also a "for profit" business. I work in the Telecommunications industry.

Further...we cannot point our "fingers of blame" in any single direction unless it is towards ourselves in the mirror. We are all at fault for the situation we are in.

For the record I spent 20+ years as a manager at the negotiating table...and and have now worked 10+ years as a union member. Dave

[Guest DTerry]

Well, I probably shouldn't get involved, but I have owned one of almost all brands (even Citroen!), and the three I swore I'd never own again are Renault, Volvo, and Mercedes. The ones I've had the best luck with and enjoyed most were Ford and Dodge. Present stable houses 2 Explorers, a Magnum and an old F150. One of the Explorers is a '99 crowding 200k, and it has probably been the lowest maintenance car I've ever owned.

No philosophical reason -well, maybe a little - but mainly just that in my experience, American made cars are a better value and more reliable.

[Howard]

I would be happy to buy a car made from an American manufacture, if they built something that I want. I have no interest in four door sedans, nor do I share the same obsession for pick-up trucks or SUVs that many people seem so attached to. What I want is a mid-size or full size two door hardtop or convertible. Guess what, not very many car makers from any land make such an animal any more. My current mode of transportation is a 06 Toyota Solara SLE convertible. (so far not recalled yet). I've owned it for 4 and half year and have had 0 problems with it. I've owned a number of cars over the years and all of them have had issues. My car before the Toyota, was an 2001 Acura CL. Was it perfect? Hardly. The car was in the shop several times for problems I was surprised it had. I worked for an Acura dealership when the nameplate was first introduced to the US and at that time they were trouble free. Things have changed apparently. The most glaring problem was a catastrophic transmission failure. In the past, I've own Mark's (the two door, not the truck) and Cadillac Eldorados. I've also had two Chryslers, a LeBaron coupe and a Sebring Convertible. Before I bought the Toyota, I looked at a 3 new Sebring Convertibles, but the quality of the car was so bad on every one, that I passed. My 96 Sebring was a much better built car. I've said this many times before, the vehicle that I've enjoyed the most was my Reatta. It was just perfect for me. Over the years, I spent a mint on it, but I chalked it up to being old. Oh how I wish there was something like the Reatta out there now. I would not have any qualms buying a Buick. After all its parent, GM, is American.

[ol' yeller]

I'm not going to comment on the controversy. I just wanted to say that when I was looking for a new car for my wife in 2005, GM had nothing she (and I) wanted. We bought a 2005 Ford Escape Limited AWD V6. After 46000 miles the only thing I had to do to it was a front brake job at 40,000 miles. She loves the car. For me, it is too small and not equipped as well as I would have liked but I sure can't argue with the way the car has held up. No warranty work and no recalls. A plus is how well the AWD works in snowy weather.

I also have a 1999 Ford F250 XLT V10 that now has about 93,000 miles on it. I use it primarily to tow my travel trailer. It too has been a great and relatively trouble free truck over the years I have owned it.

Currently I am looking for a new daily driver, Car Guys car to replace my collector Buicks. GM offers nothing except the Corvette which can be picked up pretty cheap, used, nowadays. The new Camaro is a Corvette wannabe and I am not convinced that GM, in their current economic and political correctness conditions is building quality products. The new Mustang premium GT due out in June is looking like a good choice. I do not wish to own a Fiat so Chrysler is out as well. Looking for a RWD, high performance, 2 door automobile made by a dependable manufacturer is getting harder every year. I was a Buick guy growing up. I have owned many GM products over my lifetime but it looks like Ford is going to get the rest of my business.

[padgett]

All of my vehicles were made in America except the Honda scooter for which there is no American alternative. One does have a BMW engine and a Renault trans but was built in Michigan by an American company. (Could have had one with a Buick engine but would not fit in my garage).

Have had in the past many furrin cars but bought only one new - a 1974 Mazda 808 for SCCA showroom stock class and that was because I believed it could win (then the SCCA changed the roules and it was no longer competitive but that is another story.

Last non-american car was a 1968 FIAT 124 Spyder that I really liked but sold in 1978 to buy the Sunbird (which did dominate its SCCA solo 2 class).

As a GMI student i had a grievance filed against me for a "work speedup" when I added digital controls and IR sensing to a die casting machine. Of course that was in 1973.

That said the pressures which resulted in the formation of the labor unions in the late nineteenth and early twentieth century were valid but the govenment has taken over most of the responsibility today. It will be interesting to see the clash beween the UAW and "Government Motors".

GM had a chance in the 1980s to develop efficient small cars but managed to shoot themselves in the foot about diesels and market trends. IMNSHO the "Big Three" created the market for foreign cars in this country by ignoring what people really wanted. That was strictly the fault of management and not the Union.

If GM had really been anti-union, all they needed to do was to move to "right to work states" like Florida. The fact is that management needed the union as much as the union needed management. Both agreed to the contracts and both management and GM retirees are reaping the result.

[/rant]

Edited February 21, 2010 by padgett (see edit history)

[jonlabree]

Reason enough not to buy Americam

[Booreatta]

The smart car is cute looking but between 2 trucks is not the place to be

[page2171]

Between two trucks like that it doesn't matter if your car is foreign or domestic...you are going to get squished.

Here's a link to what Snopes.com has on that picture...

http://www.snopes.com/photos/accident/smallcar.asp

Basically, it wasn't a Smart car it was actually a domestic Ford Escape.

Edited February 21, 2010 by page2171 (see edit history)

[Thriller]

Without getting too involved, I really dislike it when folks say that Toyota and Honda have higher quality than GM / domestic manufacturers. Yes, there certainly was a difference in the past, but in recent years, the overall quality has been relatively equal, with Buick being at the top of some of the quality rankings. So, how can someone say that for the current crop of new cars that GM has lower quality? That isn't objectively looking at the current facts.

We've had a couple of Montana minivans that had decent quality, but there were some nagging problems. The biggest issue I had was that the intermittent problems either couldn't be diagnosed or noted when the dealer had them. I'm on my second GMC Sierra and have been very happy with both. We are also very happy with the Buick Rainier. The biggest complaints come in small things like interior design and storage.

As both vehicles are aging and our oldest is now 14, we are starting to be looking around again. One thing is that we have been treated fabulously by our dealer, so our first visit will be to them. The question is whether or not they will have something that will fit into our lifestyle. We'd like to get something more economical, but with 3 children and 2 standard poodles, practicality comes into play. We've had an Enclave loaner which was really nice and fits the bill, but feels big. What excites me right now is the possibility of the Regal wagon. It may be a bit on the small side, but if we get fuel economy as a trade-off, we use the Rainier and the Sierra as the "family" vehicles, since most of our driving doesn't necessarily involve everyone.

At any rate, that's my opinion. Selection is an issue, but I don't think that when looking objectively at the crop of new cars that quality is.

As for the difference in retained value, it is simply a factor of the belief of quality. Since the perception is that Japanese cars are better, they hold their value better. Reality may not be reflected there, but that's the way it is. As the braking stuff gets factored in, I'd expect the values of used Toyotas to drop.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Thriller
Added last paragraph (see edit history)

[padgett]

My opinion is that while the quality is good, GM/Ford/Chrysler consistantly treated small cars as "low line" or "econoboxes" while them wiley furriners treated them more as small luxury cars and outfitted with nearly everything. At first glance the Aveo appeared to be less expensive than the Scion/FIT/Versa, however by the time it was optioned to the same level, it was more expensive.

Further the Aveo was not even built by GM but was more of a badge engineered captive import.

[reattadudes]

some very interesting comments here, although as a former new car dealer, I truly fail to understand the delusion that imports hold their value better. they don't.

I bought a new Lexus LS400 when they first came out in September of 1989, as 1990 models. I bought the car in Los Angeles, and drove it to Florida in the spring of 1990 to see some friends in Fort Lauderdale. I really began to hate the car by the time I got to El Paso, as I realized it was just as soul-less as any other Japanese car, albeit a much more expensive one. by the time I got to south Florida, it had a whopping 6,200 miles on the odometer.

I decided to "shop" the car at four different Lexus dealers. this proved to be a waste of time, as they were all owned by the same company, JM Enterprises. JM owns Southeast Toyota Distributors, which is the exclusive Toyota importer for the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, and Alabama. where was that "great resale value"? the car had an MSRP of $42,500, and the best buy bid I got was $25,000! six months old, 6,200 miles, and that was it.

I went to Bayview Cadillac in Fort Lauderdale and bought a new black Sedan deVille. they gave me $2,000 more on trade than any of the Lexus dealers. mine was the 10th Lexus they took in on trade that week.

what a thrill it was to head down Federal Highway, and jump on the Florida Turnpike. you stepped on the gas, and you heard an actual engine growl. I had a real car again!

I bought a 1991 Mercedes 350SDL when I moved to Arizona in 1991. I'll skip the litany of issues, but by the time I got rid of it in July of 1994 (on another Cadillac) Mercedes had spent over $27,000 in warranty repairs to keep it somewhat running. and what was that "benchmark of German engineering" worth with 32,000 miles on the clock? $10,000 back of low book, and that was a buy bid from a Mercedes dealer!

I'm a little confused about the deal with the Impala LTZ. first of all, it would take a minimum of negotiating skills to get the car from $31K to right around $24,500, or even less. I could list at least 30 websites right now that have similar cars for sale like this (certified used) for just under $20K. what's the big deal? a Cadillac CTS has a much higher resale value than any 3-series BMW, and with a much better warranty to boot. there's a reason BMW gives free maintenence; they know how much it cost to perform it's incredibly frequent required service. and the CTS? change the oil, and drive it.

...and poor, poor Toyota and Lexus. in the past several weeks, I've talked to at least twenty dealer principals I know very well. the consensus? they are taking ALL Toyota and Lexus models in at 50% of low book. they are basically holding the cars and not selling any of them. due to the incredible liability issues, auctions don't want them either.

an AP story just broke about an hour ago about the release of an internal document from Toyota about how they changed the scope of recalls, and all of the $$$ it saved them. they also talk about the stonewalling they did to thousands of Tacoma owners with rusted frames, and how much money they saved. the Congressional hearings start on Tuesday, and I can't wait to see what former Toyota counsel Dimitrius Biller will be bringing. he is the guy who knows where every skeleton is buried, and has all of the documents to prove it. Toyota got an injunction early last week to bar the documents. Congress then issued Biller a subpeona on Friday requiring he present them. the subpeona overrides the injunction. Biller was so concerned about the number of deaths that he flew to Japan and met with Toyota executives for FOUR DAYS. they told him to shut up. he quit with a very nice severance.

Toyota also had some good help inside NHTSA. a NHTSA employee, Chris Santucci (Google him, and read the chilling ABC News story) went to Toyota in 2003, when the first unintended acceleration complaints began to come in. after his meeting with Toyota executives, he went back and changed the parameters of the complaints, only allowing complaints of unintended acceleration of ONE SECOND OR LESS, AND WITH NO BRAKE APPLICATION. sounds fair, doesn't it? even then, there were over 1,900 accidents and 20 deaths. I shudder to think what the real numbers will prove to be. by the way, after his great help for Toyota with this "little problem" he quit his NHTSA job, and got hired as a lobbyist for Toyota. Toyota is the only auto company in the USA that has two (or ANY) ex-NHTSA employees on it's payroll.

does anyone remember back in 2007 when long time Toyota USA President Jim Press shocked the world when he left Toyota to help run Chrysler after Cerberus bought it from Daimler? many internet forums were clogged with comments like "what an idiot", "why would he do that", etc. mine was the only one (like the proverbial t*rd in a punchbowl) that said, "maybe he knows something is about to hit the fan". boy, did I get trashed by the Toyota "experts".

it blows me away how many folks bought into the "floor mats, oops, it's the acclerator pedal assembly" circus. it's not, it's the engine control computer (ECU). Toyota is the only manufacturer in the world who did not have a fail safe in the ECU software that would cut engine power if the brakes were being pushed at high engine RPM.

they have also competely avoid recalling any Lexus models (except a "voluntary recall" of the slow-selling, Prius-like 250h), even though they have also been involved in hundreds of crashes and numerous deaths.

several of those deaths in a runaway Lexus ES350 happened in California last year. this one involved an off-duty California CHP (he was a CHP certified high speed pursuit instructor) and his family in a loaner ES350 from Bob Baker Lexus in Carlsbad, California. his brother in law made a chilling 9-1-1 call from the rear seat, screaming "the brakes won't work"! the car left the road at over 100MPH. police at the scene said the front brakes were on fire, and the pads had melted to the rotors...yet Toyota still won't recall them. another customer who had the car a day before complained about the same thing. the dealer did nothing.

why?

this simple admission would cause their entire house of cards to collapse.

they've conveniently blamed everything on bad accelerator pedal assemblies from a US supplier, CTS. CTS had supplied US built Toyotas since 2005, and had won numerous quality awards from Toyota every year. what makes this even more bogus is Toyota allegedly did "quality checks" of any component sent by a supplier.

there is just one little teeny problem. the Lexus ES350 is made in Japan, it uses a different pedal assembly, made in Japan by DENSO. an admission of guilt on the Lexus would now cover every single Toyota and Lexus model. if they can't blame the American company, is the problem realLy something they don't want to admit to?

I've read several Toyota owner blogs discussing their cars after the "shimmed" pedals were installed. they are all now complaining of "hair-trigger" response from the pedal. anyone with a junior high school level understanding of science would know what happens when you cut the travel of a lever. they are also still having the unitended acceleration issue, since the root cause is still not being addressed.

sorry for getting into this lengthy diatribe about this, but I think this is the absolute biggest story of my automotive life. this type of coverup is quite common in Japan (just Google "Mitsubishi executives in prison"), but most other Japanese companies refrain from doing this type of thing outside Japan.

can you imagine if an American auto company did anything along the scope of this? there would be torches and pitchforks.

on a lighter note, a mesaage to Mr. Finn: that delightful Plymouth Cricket you had the honor of owning was actually a Hillman Avenger, not a Minx. a friend had a Cricket in Ohio back in 1973, and I can remember the joy of having to start it once an hour in cold weather. if you missed that hour by just a few minutes, it wouldn't start for days.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited February 22, 2010 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[handmedownreatta]

. The new Camaro is a Corvette wannabe and I am not convinced that GM, in their current economic and political correctness conditions is building quality products. The new Mustang premium GT due out in June is looking like a good choice. I do not wish to own a Fiat so Chrysler is out as well. Looking for a RWD, high performance, 2 door automobile made by a dependable manufacturer is getting harder every year. I was a Buick guy growing up. I have owned many GM products over my lifetime but it looks like Ford is going to get the rest of my business.

something about the current camaro really turns me off.i think its uuuuugly.

[55chevy]

some very interesting comments here, although as a former new car dealer, I truly fail to understand the delusion that imports hold their value better. they don't.

.....................

on a lighter note, a mesaage to Mr. Finn: that delightful Plymouth Cricket you had the honor of owning was actually a Hillman Avenger, not a Minx. a friend had a Cricket in Ohio back in 1973, and I can remember the joy of having to start it once an hour in cold weather. if you missed that hour by just a few minutes, it wouldn't start for days.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Hear, hear! What a great post Mike!

I'm a car nut, have had em all, well almost all, from 1930 Model A to 2000 Ford Expedition, all them new cars are just a pain to work on with them fancy computers, including my beloved Reattas.

[KDirk]

Mike,

You have made some very good points, and raised some important questions. When the first Toyota recall hit a few weeks ago and the media went rabid, I thought this was just a reflexive response of beating up on the top dog. GM took this kind of thrashing for years (heck, decades) largely because they were #1 in size and sales. Yes, GM had problems with styling, quality and customer satisfaction. Many were justified in their eventual disdain for GM, as cumulatively these problems, over time, created ill will towards the company.

That said, now almost a month on, this Toyota thing is looking mighty bad for them. While I had initially figured the ruckus was much knee-jerk posturing by interests who were enjoying the dent in Toyota's armor, it is now getting quite clear that:

1. there is a serious problem with the cars (which may not be getting properly fixed)

- and -

2. that there is a corporate culture problem at the highest levels of the company that has engaged in a wholesale cover-up.

If actual verifiable evidence of a buy-off via the NHTSA can be produced, heads are gonna roll, as well they should. Toyota officials involved in such conduct as well a gov't bureaucrats need to be taken out back and, well you get the idea.

At the same time, I am concerned that much of this "outrage" is the product of distractionary theatre created by the gov't and media for the masses as a mis-direction from other pressing problems (of which we have more than we can handle already). This is the "attention deficit" approach as employed so many times before. In the absence of this crisis, we would probably be treated to more testimony on steroid use by ball players, or another inquiry into the college football bowl system.

As the saying goes, keep your eye on the ball. There is great incentive right now for big shots to divert our focus from myriad unpleasant matters to something like this recall and the requisite hearings and lawsuits to buy time and operate under the radar on other issues. I'm not saying this isn't important (it is to all drivers as there are many Toyota's on the road, and if they aren't safe you aren't either) but I am also saying do not get led by the nose towards this singular issue to the exclusion of all others. This game is played all the time, and people still fall for it so be careful. That the Toyota problem was practically made to order for this purpose probably has some people laughing hysterically at their sudden good fortune.

As far as resale values, Toyota has already taken a hit. Kelley (and I think NADA) have already adjusted resale values down multiple times since this story has picked up steam. And yes, resale value is a byproduct of the perceived quality of the brand. Toyota, as a brand, is taking a big hit in their sterling reputation from this. Moreover, the cars affected by this recall will likely be tainted for the remainder of their service life even if the recall(s) are successful in fixing the problem; and the verdict is clearly not in on that by any means. This has a long way to go before it is played out - probably years.

On the subject of current American cars, there are some I really like. I am not of the means to buy any of them at this point in time, and even if I were I'm not sure I would. The CTS is a beautiful car, but I keep hearing of problems with the V-6 being used, specifically stretched timing chains. This would be enough to spook me out of buying one as it would sicken me to have to have an engine rebuild on a nearly new car even if it cost me nothing. Buick also has some nice stuff going.

I have longer term worries about GM's quality under gov't control. A private enterprise simply has more incentive to get it right (and more to lose by screwing it up) than one that is essentially gov't backed. They can't go out of business from poor quality because the taxpayer will just continue propping it up each time it falls down. Short term this may not be an issue, but long-range it will almost certainly affect product quality.

Design will also be affected in that current directives are aimed at "encouraging" the manufacture of small economical cars. Watch what happens when GM's current stable of models gets long in the tooth and next-gen models are prepared. It will probably be as shocking as the changeover from 1984 to 1985 model year, with all the small box FWD stuff that replaced the old land yachts. That was a very dark chapter for GM, and if it happens again (and I worry it will) it will do nothing to improve their reputation.

All this gives me pause as to whether or not I would buy a current or near-future GM even if I had the funds and inclination to do so. I'm not saying I would buy an import in place of a GM certainly, but Ford may be worth a second look. I would point out that I have not been much of a Ford fan after my parents went through a Ford phase in the late 80's to mid 90's and had some stupid problems with 3 different cars.

Finally, on the much vaunted German engineering, I think the car makers in my ancestral home land (well, I'm 1/2 German) have lost their touch. First, they over complicate everything (MB in particular) for the sake of bragging about how advanced their engineering is, and then stuff gets screwed up because it is just too complex to be reliable on a long term basis.

Second, they have succumbed to the same economic pressures as the US (and apparently Japanese) makers have - build a stylish car with good profit margins and keep the shareholders happy. If we cut a few corners, so what, right? Well, when the shortcomings are revealed as in the current Toyota flap, the dirty little secret memos about damage control and containing recall costs to preserve the bottom line start showing up like flies on a carcass.

But big companies don't think that way. They think about posting the earnings increase in the next quarter, and making sure the shareholders don't start a proxy fight to replace the board for poor financial performance of the company. Thus, with no long term consideration for the long term consequences of todays shortcuts, the stage is set for huge recalls and government investigations and class action lawsuits. Just brilliant.

But, who the hell cares? It's not like I am going to solve an ingrained (and apparently instinctive) defect of human thinking by writing a dissertation on an internet message board.

Well, now I did it. I took the bait and commented on a thread that I was trying to avoid and blew 15 minutes typing something that will change nothing. Duh.

KDirk

[reattadudes]

Kevin,

I would have no qualms buying a GM car whatsoever. the Government has absolutely nothing to do with GM's operations in any way. GM will have the Government repaid in full by June, and hopefully all of the "Government Motors" stuff will stop. it's a little too high school for me.

I got my Dodge dealer back in 1982, which was not exactly a stellar year for Chrysler. we had to listen to the same stupid stuff from idiot customers back then ("waddya goin' ta do when Chrystler goes outta bidness, sell stoo-d-bakers"?). of course, with Lee Iacocca at the helm (he's still my hero) things got corrected quickly, and Chrysler paid the loan guarantees (these were NOT bailout funds like now) back SEVEN YEARS EARLY.

I haven't heard a single thing bad about the CTS (I'm very good friends with a Cadiilac dealer here), and I've been tempted. I will most likely end up buying a new Enclave. I've wanted one since they came out, but they are a lot more expensive that the Rendezvous I had leased in 2006. the Enclave prices just keep going up (they've gone up over $3,000 since 2008), so I might as well bite the bullet and get one now. it is truly one of the most beautiful vehicles I've ever seen. resale value is so ridiculously high that buying a used one makes no sense.

the AP story about Toyota is now all over the internet and even on the local TV news. this is not even the smallest tip of the iceberg, and this will dominate the news cycle all week. can't wait to see Dimitrius Biller's testimony; it will be riveting.

I have to say I get the biggest kick out of the mess with Toyota when it concerns the "small timer's bible", Consumer Reports. why on earth would anyone automatically recommend a vehcile, just because of who made it? EVERY manufacturer has made a few cars that were less than stellar, and no company deserves a free ride. my rule of thumb for my entire adult life has been to always (without fail) to buy what they hate. it has never failed to provide a super reliable vehicle that never breaks down.

by the way, CR's chief engineer was the only engineer ever fired by Chrysler for incompetence. this helps explain why they have so much love for Chrysler.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

[KDirk]

Mike,

I should clarify that I don't think current production GM models are likely affected by gov't involvement in the company as they existed before the takeover. I do worry that even when the loans are paid back, there will be ongoing intrusion into how the company is run by gov't. I really don't want to make this a political issue because this is not the place for it, and it will probably get the thread locked or deleted. In summation, gov't has a propensity to micro-manage anything it gets a hook into, and doesn't like to let go once it has it's foot in the door. Maybe my fears are unfounded, but my concern is born out of history. Only time will tell, and I hope you are right.

With that out of the way, the CTS V-6 issue was related to me by my (former) dealer which closed in November of 2009 due to being cut by GM. I know the parts manager and two service advisors that worked there who would not blow smoke about something like that. They all related stories of timing chain failures on the standard V-6 used in the CTS and STS; I saw two in the shop for this problem on one visit. Note this was not the high output V series engine. While this was apparently not a common problem, it was causing them some concern at the time (this was spring/summer of '09, well before they knew the dealer was being closed).

I hope this isn't a major problem and has been completely solved by now as it pains me terribly to think Cadillac could be having such issues after working so hard to come back from years of sub-par perception. They need some ongoing success to keep improving their image and get back the public confidence they lost in the 80's.

I also agree with you on the Enclave. I have no need for an SUV/crossover type vehicle at this point, but it is a beautiful car inside and out. Some of the best styling I've seen in the category. I've suggested this to my sister who was recently married and is looking at getting a crossover type vehicle she and her husband can both use as he has an old and somewhat unreliable pickup and she has a completely impractical MB SLK280 (don't even get me started on this stupid piece of, uh, I mean car).

Your comments on CR are pretty much spot on IMO. It is for lazy people who can't or won't think and research for themselves and have to be told what to buy based on someone else's opinion. The fact that they hired an engineer fired from a car company for incompetence says it all. This is the problem with a publication like CR, there is inherent conflict of interest as the "expert evaluators" are culled from the industry whose products are being reviewed. Old grudges and financial considerations are always present. The vested interests and pre-existing opinions of all involved preclude the possibility of a truly objective review process.

Of course, the automotive media all around has it's darlings. Car and Driver has (or at least had) been such a shameless shill for BMW that it became a joke. I haven't read it in years so I don't know if that is still the case. It was painfully obvious when I did occasionally browse a copy some time ago.

I will admit to getting a certain amount of relish over the Toyota fall from grace presently in progress. For years I was treated to cheap shots over my choice of cars (last three were my Reatta and two DeVilles, one of which I still have) often by, you guessed it, Toyota cheerleaders. Now, my GM cars were all nice cars in good condition and generally reliable given their age and mileage. Yet I listened to how a Camry would outlast any of my cars and resell for more than I could ever hope to get for one of mine. Even if it's true (I maintain it isn't), so what. I always wanted to tell these types to just shut up and enjoy their car and stop busting on mine like it was some kind of contest - fair enough?

Well, they aren't gloating so much right now, and I am rather enjoying the reversal of fortune. Then again, I have always subscribed to the idea that my "enemies" failures are my successes. That may be an infantile mindset, but there is some satisfaction to be gained from it under the present circumstances.

KDirk

[Guest El_Diablo]

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[BrentS]

"The bourgeoisie... has set up that single, unconscionable freedom -- Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation."

-Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto

It's very dangerous, the direction this country seems to be heading...recently. For those who advocate "buy American", pro-union, "made in the USA", anti-Japanese beliefs, etc.; I truly hope you will eventually come to realize the importance of capitalsim.....and learn to oppose all those forces and factors that have recently come to pose significant threats to it.

Unions- an "avenue for corruption" and a monopoly of the workforce.

Government- the most inefficient entity for doing business. Should be avoided on all fronts, except for the business of national defense.

Trade restrictions- A complete disruption of capitalism.

The Liberal political agenda- in many ways is the opposite of a free-market economic system.

Perhaps the inherent flaw of a democracy, is that a democratic form of government can be voted-out. Quite ironic........

[wws944]

... I truly hope you will eventually come to realize the importance of capitalsim.....and learn to oppose all those forces and factors that have recently come to pose significant threats to it....

Who is John Galt?

[BrentS]

Who is John Galt?

I heard of that..... What is that a book or movie?

The best thing to happen to the Big 3, was the immergence of the Japanese automobile. You just can't argue with the power of competition.

Am I the only one who actually feels ashamed, because at one time, I too, actually believed in the "buy American" philosophy?

I truly am grateful for the engineering degree my parents gave me, and the MBA my company gave me..... it opened my eyes. :eek:

[wws944]

Atlas Shrugged, a novel by Ayn Rand. Nearly 60 years ago, she foresaw our current political and economic environment. It is also 'eye opening'. Which explains why it has been flying off the shelves over the past year.

I seriously doubt that todays Hollywood could make the movie and keep true to the ideals of the book. It would have to be 'outsourced'.

Edited February 22, 2010 by wws944 (see edit history)

[BrentS]

I seriously doubt that todays Hollywood could make the movie and keep true to the ideals of the book. It would have to be 'outsourced'.

Ha! good one.

Despite all the disagreements within this post........there's one thing I hope we can all agree on......... the people of the U.S. have the BEST SENSE OF HUMOR.

[reattadudes]

Brent,

I truly fail to understand what point you are trying to make, except trying to turn it into an Anti-American rant of some type.

1) first, perhaps you could explain your anti-union comments. let's look at this from a standpoint first where it concerns the Reatta.

in case you didn't know, the Reatta was built by union workers. when it was in the initial planning stages, it was decided that it would have it's own dedicated plant. Buick wanted it to have quality second to none, so they went to the UAW and asked for them to select the best workers to staff the plant. see any "anti-union animosity" yet?

the UAW selected the best of the best, and the minimum time any selected worker had that was hired to work at the Craft Centre was 10 years, and that even included the cleaning staff. this "us vs. them" company/union opinions might have been true in the 70's, but no further than that. move on.

I've seen this first happen with Chrysler. back in the early 80s, Chrysler didn't have the money to pay parity wages to their workers to match increases that Ford and GM were paying. Iacocca met with the unions PERSONALLY (not just the leaders), and made them this offer:

-if they would forgo the parity wages, Chrysler would take the money the workers weren't getting and convert that into Chrysler stock. when Chrysler paid back the loan guarantees, the workers would get the stock.

of course, the pundits had a field day. "the workers won't get a nickel", or "Iacocca won't pull off the resurgence of Chrysler", or my favorite, "Government wasting money on failing company". that doesn't sound familiar, does it? should we apply that to Chrysler or GM now? it's your wise choice.

so what happened?

Chrysler paid the loan guarantees back seven years early. and the workers who "foolishly" took the stock option? EACH ONE WAS A MILLIONAIRE, with the average worker who chose to cash in the stock options getting $1.2 MILLION DOLLARS in 1985. I have the Automotive News front page headline framed and still hanging in my office today.

every US automaker has a board where union members and company representatives sit down on a weekly basis and TOGETHER discuss how to make production and quality better. workers have made hundreds of thousands of suggestions on how to streamline and improve things.

before we get off of the union subject, how do you think this happens in other countries? no unions? you'd be dead wrong.

there are strong (much stronger than the US) auto workers unions in Japan, Korea, the UK, France, Germany, and Australia. they make considerably more than US workers do, too. the other countries don't have the virulent anti-union sentiment that you see here. they see the value in unions, and understand that you can't have a living wage at $9 per hour, like Toyota pays it's "contract' workers here in the US. they don't have this class of worker in Japan at all, and their average worker in Japan makes the equivelent of $95 per hour. European auto workers make more than that, too. what a combination; pay US workers who build Toyotas 1/10 of what the workers in Japan make, and then have the US workers clap and cheer. who are the real fools here?

2) trade restrictions. perhaps you should look to that shining star of the east, Japan, for the best lesson on those.

what is the percentage of imported cars allowed in Japan? 3.5%. any comments about trade restrictions? what was that about a "free market economy"? whose?

in case you didn't know, Japanese automakers "dumped" (sold for less than cost) ALL vehicles sold in the US until 1986. they would still be doing it today if Congress didn't threaten them with hearings. does this seem fair to you? is this "free trade"?

3) ah, and that tired old "liberal agenda". does a "liberal agenda" mean keeping our US workers working? does every other government in the world have a "liberal agenda"? I'm asking the question because EVERY other country in the world has given their auto companies money, and it's money they don't have to pay back. and here in the US, those auto bailout funds WILL BE PAID BACK WITH INTEREST. now where is that "liberal agenda" again? I truly think folks of this mindset will be truly disappointed when the loans are paid back.

was Ronald Reagan a liberal? he was President when Chrysler got the loan guarantees, and we know how that worked out, don't we?

I'm always puzzled by some of these Anti-American attitudes that exist today. these folks claim to be patriotic, yet they trash the US at every turn. they want the country's auto industries to fail, yet they are driving Chevy and Dodge pickups. they trash GM and Chrysler for taking money from the Government to stay alive, and praise Ford for not doing that. of course, the only difference is that Ford secured the funding it needed thru private sources mere weeks before the crash in September of 2008. if they hadn't, they would have gotten money, too.

they never take the time to get out of their turtle's shell to see how things are done in other parts of the world. they never think for themselves, choosing instead to have others do the thinking for them. when this is met with catastrophic results, they scratch their heads and ask what happened. "I wanted GM to fail, but I still want my Chevy 4X4". they want all of this, as long as it doens't affect them in any negative way whatsoever. it's like seeing a tea bagger with a sign that says, "get the government out of my Medicare".

indeed.

they are delighted when a $35 union job is replaced with a non-union one for $9 per hour, clapping like one of those cymbal-playing wind-up monkeys. then they wonder how that nine bucks an hour is going to put food on the table for their family.

were the unions excessive in the past? absolutely. I watched my home town, Akron, Ohio, get destroyed in the early 70's by the United Rubber Workers Union (URW). two hour "shower breaks" and other ridiculous things written into union contracts like this doomed Akron. I had many relatives that worked in the "rubber shops"; one uncle who said he made "blems" (less than perfect tires) for a living, and an aunt that had an entire houseful of things she stole from BF Goodrich, yet still managed to go to church every Sunday. now I understand why she never missed confession. my dad worked at an aircraft company in Cleveland, and one of his co-workers invited us out to his farm to go fishing. it wasn't hard to find, as his barn was painted in the company colors with paint he stole. the story was no different in Pittsburgh, Youngstown, Cleveland, Toledo, Gary, or hundreds of other places.

whats' happened now is things have come full-circle, just like in 1920s, when unions brgan forming.

workers being exploited, working long hours, no or little benefits, fired for no reason, no job security, employers working around things, like with "39 1/2 hour weeks", and substandard wages.

is this describing 1920, or 2010? it's your choice.

over and out.

Mike Rukavina

buickreattaparts.com

Edited February 22, 2010 by reattadudes (see edit history)

[BrentS]

I would recommend any pro-union advotcate to read The Price Theory, by Milton Freidman.

Maybe the U.S. should ban all imports, and create one employer union, by combining all the U.S. automakers into one monopoly company. Why not eliminate competition with the employers, as well as with the emplyees.

Then, we'll see how things go...

I like when union advocates call union critics "non-American". As if being a devote capitalist is non-american :confused: