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It Never Fails, Except When It Does


ol' yeller

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I wouldn't go off the deep end just yet. Methodically, one by one, eliminate all the easy (and cheap) possibilities before changing the timing chain or engine. Check the ECM connections as Padgett recommended. Can you pickup a used MAF sensor at a salvage yard? They should be cheap. That would be a cheap and easy solution for ruling out the MAF as the problem.

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Not going off the deep end, just thinking. On Wednesday AM I'll have some time to run the test sequence for the MAF code. That should tell me if the problem is in a connection or the MAF itself. If it's bad then I'll probably bite the bullet and buy a new one. Prior to that I will R&R the ECM connections. I don't plan to continue to throw parts at the problem.

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I replaced the MAF with a known good one with no change in condition. As of now, the car won't run more than 10-15 seconds. Feathering the throttle will get it to run (very poorly) for about another 5 seconds until stalling. This is the same as it was prior to replacing the MAF. I then removed the negative battery cable and then R&Red the connections at the ECM. I reattached the battery cable, then went into diagnostics and cleared all codes. The car started and ran as before but it stalls prior to lighting the SES light. As a result there are now no codes set to troubleshoot.

I'm at a loss again. At this point, my seat of the pants diagnostic ability (which has cost me well over $500 so far to no avail) has me thinking it's either the ECM, the timing chain, or maybe even the ignition module. With over 152,000 miles and given the sooty intake area I'm really leaning towards the timing chain set. Where do I go from here??

Greg

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This might not be the best answer as to where to go from here, but if it were me... next I would remove the hose that connects the MAF to the air cleaner, then while a helper is trying to start the car and keeping it running, see if you can tell if you have fuel/air mixture trying to blow back out of the intake. If you do that is an indicator of the valve timing being off. It would explain the soot in the intake system and the poor running.

After doing that if you do suspect the timing chain, you should be able to get an idea of how much slack you have by removing the cam sensor and watching to see how far you must turn the crankshaft before the camshaft moves. You need to turn the crankshaft one direction to get all the slack going one way. Then make a mark on the harmonic balancer and a corresponding mark on the engine block. Next turn the crankshaft the opposite direction until you see the camshaft move through the hole where the camshaft sensor mounts. The difference in the marks you made will give you an idea of the slack in the chain

I hope I'm helping you and not just confusing you.

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I'm a little lost in all that was done but " Feathering the throttle will get it to run (very poorly) for about another 5 seconds until stalling" does not sound like an electrical issue but rather a fuel delivery one.

Have you put a pressure gauge on the fuel rail and watched it while this is going on ? Could you have a bad fuel pressure regulator ? Certainly a lot easier to check then a timing chain. (Generally stretch will result in a slight loss of power and a lot will have the chain banging on the timing cover).

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Pressure will tell all. Should be around 40 psi at idle, have seen run poorly down to 20. Any of the above will show up as a loss of pressure.

In fact the symptoms (starts ok, declines) sounds most like a clog somewhere (e.g. fuel filter).

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My first thoughts were about a fuel pressure issue was causing his problems but in one of his posts he says the following:

"The first thing the shop tested was fuel pressure and it was very good."
I agree with the symptoms pointing to a lack of fuel but it is not consistent with a sooty intake system.
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OK, time has come to face some realities. I like my Reatta. I love the Maui Blue, I love the sunroof, I love having a car you don't see everyday. The car is only worth $2,500 on a good day in running condition. I already have well over that invested in my year and a half of ownership. In its current condition, I'd be lucky to get $500 for it.

Despite the legendary longevity of the venerable 3800, I fear this one is nearing the end of its life. It has several non serious oil leaks. It has the soot problem in the throttle body as well as the current problem which hasn't been resolved. After spending over $700 on this current problem I am no closer to resolving the current issue than when I started. The car has 152,000 miles on it. I have no idea if the transmission has ever been rebuilt. I suspect it is all original. When it needs a rebuild, it will probably run me $2,000.

The ABS did give me a problem a couple of weeks ago. Temps were in the low 20's. After about 5 minutes I had a very hard pedal. After numerous pumpings, the brakes began working as usual. Neither light lit at any time. If the ABS needs an overhaul, I'm looking at $500-$1,000.

Do I part it out? Do I slog along, get it running and sell it? Do I have a junkyark come and get it? Do I bite the bullet, and rebuild the engine or replace it with a supercharged version? A few posts ago I stated that I wasn't going to jump off the deep end. I think the water has gotten deeper the last few days and the shallow end has dissappeared. On the plus side of the ledger, the body and original paint is in great shape, no dents or rust with only a few rock chips in the front. The interior is also in in good shape only needing a new carpet and steering wheel cover. I have never let my wallet rule the day when it comes to my collector cars but in this economy I do need to at least think about it.

If I start down the path by putting around $2K into rebuilding the engine or changing in a supercharged 3800, I will be comitted to the eventual tranny rebuild and probably an ABS repair. Add in another $300-$400 for the interior repairs. That means I could have $5,000 on top of what I have already spent in a car worth $2,500. On the other hand, buying a new or used car in the $5,000 price range could bring its own problems and most likely won't have a rebuilt drivetrain.

Do I keep running down the rabbit trails until I fix the current problem, do I unload this mother, or do I build my dream Reatta? Your insights and advice is very much appreciated.

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Don't ask me, I put waaay to much into my cars (and have a spare powermodule sitting in the garage). Just put a set of 16 ways in the 'vert. MGR & auxilliary are getting most of the attention currently though.

Of course I do not drive that much (about 4,000 miles a year spread over 6.5 vehicles & Reattae are under 100k), longest commute is to airport) so not a good example

Suspect I will have mine at least until I cannot drive or gas engines are outlawed.

That said I have had some headbangers but eventually find the answer (and in retrospect think "Oh yeah"). Some just take a while.

Edited by padgett (see edit history)
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It sure sounds like a fuel delivery problem. Easy to check with a gauge attached. Is the soot in the throttle body a dry powdery substance or a dark gummy buildup? Plug wires are on the correct cylinders, right? The timing chain being sloppy is a little harder to check on these engines since the tensioner (if operational) may skew the results a little, but there is no doubt the valve timing does retard a little with a worn chain. Certainly a useful test that costs nothing. I don't know if it is possible to jump a tooth, but it would make a huge difference if it did. If the tensioner is non-functional, there will be a small amount of slop, even in a new chain. I had one experience on a severely worn chain. In this case it was a 302 Ford in a pickup truck. No tensioner on this engine and I had over 30 degrees of crank rotation before the distributor would move, which is connected to the camshaft. The symptoms were: very hard to start and would sometimes flood itself (port fuel injected), very bad idle or it could stall, and severe lack of power. A new timing set did cure the problem in this case.

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Guest Mc_Reatta

In reviewing the posts, I don't see where you have been able to rule out the two big bears in the system the ICM and the ECM. Either of these would give you your symptoms. I would not be thinking about an engine rebuild or swap out at all.

This is a fuel delvery / ignition problem. You have chased the most important sensors (CPS, MAF), but other than cleaning the connectors I don't see where you have changed out the ICM or ECM.

This forum has documtented lots of ECM failures of late that displayed much less drastic symptoms than you have.

I strongly suggest you go to the parts store or better yet a junk yard and get a working ECM from a 3.8 C and a delco ICM + coils and base plate.

If you can't bear the idea of used parts, the ECM will be cheaper at the parts store so start with that. There should be instructions on Ronnie's site on how to remove, change the PROM and test.

If you try to buy the Delco ICM and coils from a parts store, you will not be able to mount them on the engine because you won't have the proper base plate, so if you won't get a used one with the plate, you'll have to get the Magnavox, which to me is not money well spent.

I say 70 / 30 its the ECM anyway judging by your symptoms to date. The electrical grounding issues you had giving you all of the intermittent problems would have played havoc with the components in both of these modules. The fouled plugs telll me your getting plenty of fuel, you have an issue with timing and or spark, and that what's these modules do.

So for another $100 or so you'll either be worrying about that tranny again or how to part out this car to get some of your money out of it. 150K is nothing for these engines.

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Guest Bobby Valines

Harbor freight has a fuel presser gage for $10.00. 150,000 is when my fuel pump went out cost about $350.00 to have it changed. For $10.00 it worth knowing for sure its not the pump acting up. My pump motor did not just quit it must have ran weak. Did you do like Ronnie suggest and run it till it staled and check it for spark?

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Good example of why it helps to do all of your own work, $350 buys a lot of tools.

Fuel pump can be diagnosed at the green prime connector. If it turns out to be the pump:

a) use only an AC-Delco (probably an EP-240 but should check might be an EP-378) - have seen as low as $74 at Amazon with free shipping but price constantly varies.

B) when changing the pump also change the in tank wiring (included in kit), sock, and filter (not in tank)

c) Hardest part of changing a fuel pump for me is draining the tank. Do need to get the car at least 16" off the ground to be able to slide it out.

But first a pressure check while it is stalling needs to be done.

We need to begin back at square one, water it completely muddled. Maybe a new thread.

Edited by padgett (see edit history)
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I've made some decisions. First, I am keeping the Reatta. I was going through some life choices (no, not those life choices) and one of the choices I was exploring was getting rid of all 3 of my collector Buicks and buying a nice "Guy's" car like a C6 Corvette. I've decided that I can't emotionally part with Ol' Yeller, my 65 Skylark hardtop. My 4 door Skylark doesn't really cost me anything except storage fees and insurance which both are minimal. This is my second Reatta.

Frankly, what has led me to deciding to keep this car is twofold. First, the outpouring of support from all of you. I truly appreciate everyone's desire to help me, a complete stranger and novice to the technical side of the complicated world of Reatta. Your patience and ability has made me feel one with the Reatta brotherhood. I am actually looking forward to not only fixing the current problem but also years of ownership that lie ahead. The second reason is much more practical. I can't sell it in its current condition and after spending what I have and what I will still have to, I would be fixing this car for the next buyer. That should be me!

This thread is getting pretty long so it would probably be best to end this thread here and start a new one as warranted. To answer the questions recently asked; No I haven't checked for spark when it stalls as it fires right up and stalls again. If it fires, it has spark, right? I will pick up a cheap fuel pressure gauge and check the pressure myself at the fuel rails. As it can be counted on to run poorly all the time now, if it has a fuel delivery problem, it should show up on the gauge. As I have decided to keep the car, if I replace the ECM, it will probably be with a new one from a local parts house, after I run down the other possibilities. I will also search the forum to figure out what I need as an ICM. I suspect it is the Delco version with the round coils and I will pick that up in a wrecking yard, again after I exhaust the other cheaper possibilities. The soot in the throttle body area is just powdered soot, not wet or gummy.

While I did use this car daily I don't need to have it always available as I have several other cars to use primarily my '99 V10 F250. At 10 MPG I do have an incentive to get the Reatta back on the road however. When I was younger, I had no money so I had to learn how to repair my vehicles myself. That situation does lead to frustration at times when the car needs to running on Monday morning to get you to work. At this point in my life I can put the tools down, rather than throw them in frustration, go inside and think about the problem for a day or so and then tackle it anew. I say that so you will know why I may not have an answer to your helpful suggestions right away. In the coming week or so, I will check my fuel pressure, and then begin to isolate the other possibilties. I will start a new thread with my findings and hopefully resolution on what the problem was.

It was the helpfulness of you folks that has brought me back into the Reatta brotherhood and I truly do thank and appreciate everyone's advice and experiences. Now where did I put that renewal form for the RDIV?

Greg

Edited by ol' yeller (see edit history)
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I'm a retired Olds mechanic.

I was in the old car hobby when your Reatta was new. We had the same problems trying to fix these cars when they were new. I remember thinking to my self that these cars are going to be just as hard to repair in 20 years! I was not mistaken! I remember having similar problems with an early '90s Totonado. It would stall intermittently, set different codes each time. I had the advantage of walking to the parts department and trying different parts without having to pay for them. New sensors did not correct the problem. I noticed that the codes that were set seemed to be related to power and ground circuits. Toronados were equipped with a "central power supply". This unit was intended to provide consistant voltage to the multiple on board computers under all driving conditions. It was failing intermittently and causing bad signals from different sensors. This caused the ECM to condemn different sensors at various times. The early posts about battery cables make sense. I'm not sure, but I think the Toroando and Reatta are based on the same platform. Your car may be equipped with a central power supply. It was mounted near the base of the steering column on the Olds. I was able to duplicate my driveability problem by kicking the driver's side hush panel as I drove. The car would set codes and stall when I kicked the hush panel. Again I'm not sure if your car has a central power supply, but it is something to consider. Good luck!

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  • 14 years later...

The disadvantage to starting a new thread is that it's pretty hard to find that new thread to see what the solution ultimately was. I'm not sure what that new thread is titled. I tried searching for this title and got a dozen pages of results starting with the newest. Clicking on next page told me to "wait 5 seconds" before trying a new search 🤦🤷

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