!932: Who had the "best" V-12 and why?

[CBoz]

This is sort of a variation on the Pierce Arrow vs. Packard thread below, but might be a fun mental exercise:

It's 1932, and you've been promoted to bank president. You know you want a V-12, but which one? The Cadillac, with the overhead valves? The Lincoln KB, with the tried-and-true fork and blade arrangement and 7 main bearings? Or how about Packard's *new* Twin Six? The Pierce-Arrow? Or what about an air-cooled Franklin? Or maybe even the Auburn, which would let you hold onto some of your cash?

Ok, so which one would you get and why? Mind you, we are selecting the *drivetrain* -- we can worry about bodystyle later.

(PS -- I know any discussion of "best" is purely subjective, this is just for fun. If you have figures to back up your choice, go for it!)

Edited December 12, 2009 by CBoz (see edit history)

[tbirdman]

He would buy a Packard because he would have asked the man who owned one.

In 32, Packard dominated the luxury car market with 37% share.

[trimacar]

Naw, he's a bank president in Buffalo, he knows he HAS to buy a Pierce Arrow, or he'll be run out of town, support your local business ya know. Unfortunately, he takes a test drive, and he's staring at a naked butt on an archer hood ornament. Just can't handle it. Then he goes to the ACD dealer, he would like to have an Auburn, but the only one they have on the lot, V-12, is, unfortunately, painted a reddish color, and he decides he can't have an auburn Auburn. Goes to the Lincoln dealer, but the cars just look too much like Fords on steroids, of course they didn't know what steroids were then, so he just thought it was a Ford on the Charles Atlas program.. Thinks about a Franklin, but doesn't believe in air cooling, even though, if he really thought about it, all cars are air cooled, just some have radiators, and some don't. He thinks about a Cadillac too, but he plays a lot of golf, and his caddy drives an older Caddy, and he thinks he'd be a cad to copy the caddy's Caddy. So the finally ends up at the Packard dealership, there's a nice V-12 on the lot, he buys it, but later regrets the choice, as he is constantly bothered at home with phone calls and people knocking on the door, "How ya like the Packard" and "The salesman told me to ask you about the Packard" and "Hey, you own one, can I ask you about it." Finally, he sells the damn thing and buys a Chevy. No one really cares if you drive a Chevy. That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[tbirdman]

david,

Now that reply took some thinking! Good work.

[trimacar]

And just a quick note, I own a few Chevy cars, so that was just a joke, people do care if you own a Chevy, no offense to Chevy owners, just kidding. Whew. Hope I didn't start a Chevy ranting thread!

[CBoz]

Great reply, trimacar --- I never thought about the dillemma of a Pierce-Arrow owner. I suppose it could be worse and the archer could be aiming *at* you.

[alsancle]

How about a Voisin C20?

[alsancle]

Or a Daimler double six?

[CBoz]

Two I didn't know about! Thanks, Alsancle. And the Voison is a sleeved-valve engine as well.

Edited December 13, 2009 by CBoz (see edit history)

[Guest my3buicks]

He would have said the hell with all these pretentious luxury cars, I am going to buy smart in the luxury car field and buy a 90 Series Buick, after all, why do I need a v12 - I will let the flamboyant ones to the people that want to show off their money, I need to be a bit more refined in my choice.

[CBoz]

Unfortunately, the Buick 90 won't work for our banker -- his neighbor Dr. Smith already has one. No doubt the 344.8 cubic inch, 113 horsepower Buick 8 is a great engine, but our banker friend needs to have something *more*, at least 150 horsepower...

[TexRiv_63]

In 1932, if your banker's bank was still open and solvent he was doing pretty well. He had to be careful wearing his top hat around town though since all those folks he had foreclosed out of their homes were gunning for him. He really wanted to buy a Cadillac V-16 with its showcar - finished engine but he was afraid that would draw too much attention, so he bought the Cadillac V-12 instead. Based on the V-16, it's technology and dependability had been proven since 1930. He also held the note on the Cadillac dealership so he knew he would get good service!

[Steve_Mack_CT]

To follow up on TrimaCar's (BTW - who has a better rounded collection than Dave C??!) guy, he could have kept the Packard if he ordered it with the "no logo" option available at the time. While Packard always was restrained in the badging, it's senior cars could be had with no badging whatsoever (see Turnquist's book) for those who did not feel it appropriate to flaunt wealth during the depression. Of course there is that dog gone radiator shape....

[Steve_Mack_CT]

This is a great thread. I know Cecil probably wants to stick with the comparative mechanical merits of the competing V-12 engines of the day and that is a good subject in itself, but the following factors, even ignoring body style probably influenced the banker-buyer of the day more than any detailed technical data of the time.

Which engine produced the most HP, and to a lesser extent the best gas mileage? (Packard ads boasted a “miserly” 10-12 MPG…) Oh, and noise levels – best if you cannot hear it running, although most all V-12s seem quite capable of this.

While we have a pretty good idea of longevity and strengths and weaknesses of these drive trains today probably less was known outside the dealerships and garages of the day. So I suggest most buyers followed reputation and the general tried and true philosophy of the day that larger was better and made their decision based on the factors above. I believe the biggest V-12 available in 1933 was from Lincoln, not so sure about 1932 but that could be a factor.

Which engine – drive train actually, produced the smoothest acceleration? Most closely “resembling steam”? Who required the least shifting – especially important if you plan on doing your own driving.

Which dealer was most accommodating? Pretty rare today that a dealer brings a car by your office for you to have a look, and then offers to lend it to you for a weekend to try it out, or perhaps discuss the purchase over a round of golf? If the purchase was for your wife, perhaps she would be more interested in the salesman bringing the catalogs over in the afternoon and assisting in the selection of colors and upholstery than the details on the engine?

What does your chauffer think? In many cases the chauffer would have influence in the matter, and in just as many cases the dealer, or coachbuilder, just may have arranged for them to have a piece of the pie, should a sale result.

Of course, being a banker, price matters also but there are other factors such as body style, custom or standard, etc. that come into play there.

[CBoz]

Hey Steve -- I'm happy to let this discussion migrate where folks take it. I think we can generally agree that all the big American makes had strong reputations, so our banker could end up with a Cadillac, Lincoln, Packard or Pierce Arrow (but probably not an Auburn; too flashy!).

Body style? Our banker needs something conservative and practical (although the junior teller that's still in him wants a coupe), and probably from the catalog. He's thinking a dark-colored sedan or Victoria with dark wool interior. But then he goes to the Lincoln dealer and sees the Dietrich coupe.

Can he talk his wife into it? Will the Buffalo business community shun him? Will he be talked out of it by "the man who owns one?" ...

Edited December 15, 2009 by CBoz (see edit history)

[CBoz]

... We may have to look at the Nash; our banker's talk with his wife concerning the Lincoln Dietrich coupe didn't go well at all:

"Harold, you can't be serious. You're a 47-year-old banker, not John Barrymore. Just where do you expect the children to sit? If you think Harold Junior and Beatrice are going to ride in the rumble seat during a Buffalo winter, you need to think again!"

Harold sheepishly looks at his feet and nods his head. Ok, so we are definitely looking at a sedan or Victoria. Maybe the Pierce-Arrow dealer will swap that damn hood ornament for something else. And what's this he's heard about the Nash?....

Edited December 15, 2009 by CBoz (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Well, actually, Harold did have a talk with the local Pierce dealer. One chilly Saturday morning in November, he drove his used '28 Marmon sedan to the 732 Main Street Pierce Arrow showroom. Entering, he located the salesman he was looking for, Thomas Keeler, an old school chum from Buffalo Technical School on Elm Street. They had both attended this high school, with Thomas completing his studies and going to work at the Pierce plant, while Harold had decided that manual labor was not for him. Harold thus continued his studies and graduated from Bryant and Stratton Business College in Buffalo, succeeded at his bank, and became a gentleman of means.

Harold was looking for a car, and Thomas was glad to show him a new 1932 12 cylinder Pierce brougham, thinking that this would be a perfect car for him. After a test drive, Harold stated that sure, the car was beautiful in its two tone gray, but it really did bother him a little to be looking at the rear end of a man-statue on the hood. Besides, the headlights in the fenders was just a little too obvious to the struggling community, that he was driving a true luxury car.

Well, said Thomas, I can actually do something about both of those issues. We can delete the archer hood ornament, and put a plane cap on the radiator. Also, we can order a car with the special headlights, not in the fenders, but just like regular cars. Harold looked at a brochure which showed such headlights, but was not impressed, as the car then just looked mundane, even though he knew it still had the superior engineering under the hood. Oh well, thanks anyway, Thomas, nice to see you. Hey, nice to see you too, Harold, we used to have fun riding the bicycles around, didn't we, I even rode mine to work at the Pierce factory every day. The stairs had a grove going down between the steps, and I'd glide my bicycle down the middle of the steps to storage in the building. We've sure come a long way, right, Harold?

And Harold left, to continue his search for the right car for him and his family. He thought to himself, well, just as soon head over to the Packard dealership, it was a beautiful building just a few blocks down the road, at 1325 Main Street. He had actually met Albert Kahn in 1927, at a bank event celebrating the new Packard building. Albert had designed the concrete frame structure to be used as a showroom. It actually pre-dated the Pierce dealership building by a couple of years.

His quest for the perfect car continues.

Edited December 15, 2009 by trimacar (see edit history)

[poci1957]

Keith is probably closest to what actually happened in 1932--that the luxury car buyer still had money but social consideration meant he had to be discreet in spending money, especially on a car and especially in a small town or city. So he did buy a Buick rather than any V12.

But he probably wanted a Packard..............

[Guest my3buicks]

If once he has made the rounds, gotten grief from those friends in less stable financial condition. he pauses and ponders. Still wanting to drive a grand automobile, but afraid that his world is not really any more stable than those of his once wealthy friends. And most importantly, to keep his wife happy(now she can have that fur she wanted) this would be an excellent choice. After all, if the Dr next door has one, he will just get a nicer one. Maybe he could even pop for something that tread into the "upper prestige" cars territory like the this Murphy bodied beauty, and the wife was even on board with this one because the chauffeur she had interviewed kept giving her the eye.

Edited December 16, 2009 by my3buicks (see edit history)

[Dave Mitchell]

Harold's grandson can buy the Murphy bodied Buick town car when it comes up for auction next month...

[trimacar]

Well, Harold had a setback in 1938, he had invested a lot of his personal money in trying to revive the Pierce Arrow company, and when it finally failed he had little left. The bank where he work downsized (or, as they said back then, he got fired). He ended up having to go back to working with his hands, and found a job at the Buerk Tool Works. He made a comfortable living, and finally settled in to a nice middle class life.

His grandson never really amounted to much, and is now a greeter at Walmart. He's found out that every time he makes ends meet, the middle breaks. He can hardly afford the old 1987 Buick he's driving, much less a Classic one. I know all this, because he doesn't have a computer, and writes letters to David Coco, Winchester Va.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Imagine how excited Harold's grandson was to find that all that silly old Pierce sales catalogs, internal company documents and letters, manuals and NOS hood ornaments that Harold left him were actually worth something. He figured he might keep the thick file of corrospondence with local dealers and a couple of coachbuilders from when was it - - 1932. But if he sells the other stuff he might be able to get enough to put a downpayment on one of those "tuner cars" his friends drive. Or at least get a quickie paint job for the '87 Buick...

OK, this is going downhill.. Back to 1932 V12s, anyone??

[CBoz]

Harold has narrowed it down to three cars. As nice as the Buick is, he still wants a V-12 and the extra horses. He also needs a sedan or Victoria, but not a limo (he didn't like the looks his prospective chauffeur was giving the Mrs). Besides, he likes driving.

And the three candidates are pictured below. His friend Chester Bozarth,a Lincoln man, suggests the Pierce Arrow; he very much likes the integrated headlights and hopes Lincoln eventually comes out with something similar. And even Chester admits the Pierce Arrow's "large" V-12 is an exceptional engine -- 429 cubic inches, twin carburetors, 150 hp, and all at a lower compression ratio than the Packard. And as a Lincoln man, he favors the L-head design over the more complex overhead valve arrangement of the Cadillac. Last, Chester suggests that Harold not be such a prude concerning the radiator ornament; it's both dignified and reminiscent of classic Greek sculpture.

Harold values Chester's opinion, but wants the comments of some others before making a final choice...

Edited December 16, 2009 by CBoz (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Harold made one more trip to the Pierce showroom, early December, and saw a brand new 1933 V12 Brougham. Such class, such a beautiful understated car, he couldn't pass it up. He had some mechanical background, and the thing that finally clinched the deal was the hydraulic lifters in the Pierce V-12. Pierce engineers pioneered this technology for car engines.

So, he bought it.

[CBoz]

And the skirted fenders were icing on the cake! David, thanks for bringing it home, so to speak!

(Somehow I don't think this would have been nearly as much fun if we were doing this with 2009's version of luxury cars -- "Hmmm, the Porshce Cayenne or BMW X6 cross-over?" zzzzzz)

Edited December 16, 2009 by CBoz (see edit history)

[Steve Braverman]

Harold was glad he bought the Pierce 12, when 15 years later, when the block cracked, he substituted a firetruck V-12 engine in its stead, and continued motoring.

Of course, if had bought the Franklin 12, Harold never would have suffered the humiliation of a cracked block.

[CBoz]

There was a Franklin being worked on in the shop that did bodywork on my Zephyr. The owner and I were kidding back and forth -- I told him anyone can design an air-cooled engine, but it takes real talent to engineer a water-cooled engine with two water pumps that still overheats (PS -- I don't have any of the problems traditionally associated with the Zephyr V-12).

[Steve Braverman]

I told him anyone can design an air-cooled engine, ....

Chevrolet couldn't, at least in 1923. They did an ok job in 1960 though.

[CBoz]

Hey Steve -- I hope you know I was kidding about the "anyone can design an air-cooled engine" remark. I personally find the Franklins to be amazing cars; it's really a shame that the marque didn't last. I'd love to see pictures of your cars -- could you post some?

[Steve Braverman]

Hey Steve -- I hope you know I was kidding about the "anyone can design an air-cooled engine" remark. I personally find the Franklins to be amazing cars; it's really a shame that the marque didn't last. I'd love to see pictures of your cars -- could you post some?

I knew you were kidding. I just think it's hilarious that a company like Chevrolet tried to copy Franklin's design in 1923, but reversed the flow of air so that their design would seem more original. Sucking the air from the bottom and blowing it out the front of the car is just plain stupid though. Just goes to show you that people can screw up the simplest of machines. I take great pride in my Franklins and their engineering. Here are three of our four cars. Sorry, no V12 in the fleet. I drove one and prefer my six.

Edited December 28, 2009 by Steve Braverman (see edit history)