unimogjohn

Avanti R2, 1963, refresh

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I took the attached photos in Sept, 2009 at the AOAI National Meet in Lisle, IL. The car is a 1964 R2 powered Studebaker Avanti. You can see, a pretty nice one! It belongs to a friend in Highland Park, IL Joe Esdale. The reason I took the photos is they illustrate the fuel connections between pump and carburetor the way Studebaker did when new.

The fuel pump image does not clearly show the connection on top (upper left) from the supercharger but you can get the idea of how and where the fitting is positioned.

The important view is the fuel filter assembly (Many have been discarded over the years unfortunately) the return line to fuel tank is the upper most pipe leading away from the filter.

I am coaching another good friend in sorting out his Avanti engine plumbing from previous incorrect work which is why I took the specific images. These are reduced size for dialup emailing, if you need better resolution files let me know. I hope these will guide you through the fuel connection job.

Stude8

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It is Tuesday, Nov. 3rd. Voted today and then took the opportunity to get 6 gallons of Premium fuel, more brake fluid, and more fuel hose.

Stude8, thanks for the pics. They are very helpful. I do like the fuel filter, have ones almost like it on my 20s cars. Now I know how things should looks.

Spent the morning blowing out the gas lines with compressed air, and replacing the fuel rubber hose connections between the tank and the line, and also the line to the fuel pump. All my lines are now clean and all rubber hoses are new. Put in the new gas in the tank and started the car. She started immediately and settled down after a minute or so. The gas in the filter is now clean and transparent. I am happy now to have clean gas going to the nice carb.

We are going to get our first light freeze tonight so put in anti-freeze and let her run to make sure everything is mixed OK.

She is running at idle with 40lb of oil pressure, the vacuum steady in the green, water temp is 180 degrees, and is at about 750 rpm. I may have a misfire in the engine, but cannot really tell, it seems to be off and on. Not to concerned about it now as have not checked timing and dwell yet.

Took some before and after pics of the suspension after using my power washer for about 30 minutes. Still lots to clean, but looks better. Also you will see a pic of the wiring for the headlights, turn signals, and parking lights. All cobbled together. Will have to sort all that out. It is all the result of the horn grounding out when you turn the turn signal stock to the left. I can easily put the wiring back to original and make the horn a button under the dash, but will see what is up under the steering wheel before I do that.

Did not work on the brakes today, just ran out of daylight and time. Looks like the pads are about 95%. I think that it had a brake job before it went into slumber some twenty years ago.

Started and stopped the engine several times today. She always started right up with no hesitation. Smoke is getting less also.

Tomorrow I am going to work on the rear brakes and also see if I can put on the exhaust pipes. I repositioned the jacks so the rear end is now hanging down as far as it can go.

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The engine misfire you mention could be due to two circumstances (among many).

Studebaker engines were known for a "Mutual Inductance" misfire due to #5 and #7 spark plug wires running parallel on non-Avanti engines where ignition wires were not confined in the rubber lined metal loom that was used on Avanti R series engines.

The firing order being 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 allowed the spark pulse from #5 cylinder to pre-ignite the #7 cylinder mixture that was next in firing order. From your photos it looks like the wires are contained in the looms but if the left side cables are sloppy in arrangement you might be getting the miss problem that way. *It was most noticeable at idle.

Another common cause is the dwell of the dual point sets in the distributor not being set to optimum, with the long lack of maintenance on the car I would check the points for adjustment gaps.

Stude8

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..............The important view is the fuel filter assembly (Many have been discarded over the years unfortunately) the return line to fuel tank is the upper most pipe leading away from the filter...........

Stude, what is the purpose of this return line from the filter? I don't believe I have ever seen anything like this before.

Wayne

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Edited by R W Burgess (see edit history)

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I read these posts with interist as we have an 63 R1. Actually it is my wifes car.

Is that sediment bowl and return line common to a R1 as well?

One time we topped off the fuel tank then parked it for a couple of weeks. When my wife started it, it smoked something awful and was pumping oil out of every orifice. I checked the oil and it appeared there was none in it. It turned out there was so much oil in it that I couldn't read it on the dipstick. Some how the gas in the tank ran into the crank case. Has anyone ever expirenced this?

I havn't seen a lot of Avanti's but ours has a wood grain dash. Is this correct?

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Curt,

I think all of the Avanti's I have seen have the wood grain dash. This is a picture of the one in my '64 R2 4 speed car, it is serial number 5400 so it was at the very end of production.

Gary

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It is Wednesday, Nov. 4th. It is great to see others add their knowledge and interest. Keep them coming.

Today was a cold day, 25 degrees this morning, so did not get out until about 10 and it was only 33 then. It did warm up to 50 degrees by mid afternoon.

Got the new brake line for the Unimog so put that it as we have to get her stopping again as we have to pick up hay for the llamas in a couple of days. We get two big rounds in the truck. Tomorrow, if it does not rain, I will bleed the brakes.

The Avanti, I really worked on her from about noon until four. Kind of a short day, but seemed to get a lot of little things done.

Front shocks, removed the one remaining and put on the two new shocks. Done.

Bled the rear brakes, and found something very interesting, a smashed line. But it bled out, but will replace the line. The other brake bled out OK too. I now have a firm pedal, so I have brakes, and can probably stop. I am going to check front pads tomorrow, and then head down to a friend who is restoring an Avanti R2, a frame off job. He is a master and is doing all the work, except painting himself. He told me that he has three is various barns around the area. Oh, he has the puller for the rear drums.

Decided to check the timing. After reading the manual it says that the timing should be 4 degrees at 750 rpm and 24 at 1600 for the supercharged engine. Mine is currently set at 8 degrees at 750 rpm, and does advance to 24 degrees at 1600 rpm. Just got too dark and cold, so decided not to check the points. Will do that another day.

Exhaust. Now that the rear end is hanging down the tail pipe went over the axles easily. However, the "resonator delete" section on the car now is shorter than the SS one I just bought, so decided to remove the old ones from the car. Got one off after banging and bending metal. Glad the muffler and pipe were almost new. Did a test fitting of the new SS sections and they look like they will fit fine. Will do the other side over the next day or so.

I am done for the day. I did start and run the car several times today. It it great to hear her run.

Thanks everyone for the comments and suggestions.

Here are a couple of pics of the smashed line and of the Unimog and hay.

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Gary,

I think all of the Avanti's I have seen have the wood grain dash. This is a picture of the one in my '64 R2 4 speed car, it is serial number 5400 so it was at the very end of production

Unimogjohn's 63 R2 has a tan dash and another fellow I know has a tan dash as well. Neither car has a wood grain steering wheel. Wood grain dash with a wood grain wheel...???

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It's Thursday, Nov. 5th.

Was going to get an early start, but got a call that an Avanti needed a trailer ride to the paint shop. So hooked up the trailer, picked up the car, and delivered her to the shop. She is going to be painted Avanti Maroon, a 1964 color. The engine, transmission, glass and interior are all out, so she looks just a little sad. But at least I did have the opportunity to see how an Avanti is put together. Also borrowed the brake drum puller so will be able to check out the rear brakes in the next couple of days.

Well I got home at noon and went right to work on the exhaust. Got the other resonator delete pipe out with a lot of prying, banging and bending. Only got one smashed finger in the process, but she finally came out.

I must say that the SS exhaust from Canada is an excellent fit. I just loosely put everything together in their various holding points, adjusted the pipes to make sure that they were positioned correctly, and tightened everything down. They look good. Was going to start the car to see how it sounds, but the battery is dead, again. I have some electrical issue that is draining the battery. Will leave the engine start to tomorrow as it is starting to rain and getting dark.

I was surprised to see that a cutting torch was used to make the holes in the frame larger to fit the pipes sometime in the past. Would they have done this at the factory? You can see what I mean in a couple of the pics.

Tomorrow going into the engine bay and going to service and lube the idler system for the supercharger. Also going to put on the new rubber belts for the power steering and alternator. Also going to power wash the suspension pieces under the engine to get them free of all the old grease, dirt and oil. After that is done I can start cleaning and detailing the engine bay. It is going to be clean, not all painted up. I like a car to look original.

After pricing the individual pieces of brake line I decided to purchase a complete kit for the Avanti in SS as a much better value. Purchased from Inline Tube - Preformed Stainless & OEM Brake Line Sets out of MI. for under $200.

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In June of 1963 the "tenite" panels on dash and console were phased in along with the wood wheel. The possibility exists of a wood wheel car with the painted dash and console.

The Avanti gas tank is higher than the fuel pump so a diaphragm break in the fuel pump will allow gas to seep into the enging. Keeping fuel lines in good shape is very important as the tank will drain itself dry through a crack or loose fitting.

If your timing will not advance as the engine rpm is increased you probably have frozen centrifugal advance weights. It's common for the Prestolite distributor to have worn or frozen weights. The R2 engine doesn't like a lot of timing under boost but needs advance for low end pull. That's why the full 24 centrifugal is all in at such low RPM. You can experiment with timing but optimum isn't more than a few degrees above and in some cases higher doesn't help at all.

The return fuel line is mainly there for high heat conditions. It allows hot fuel and vapors a place to go. Underhood temps on Avantis are very high.

The extra line to the top of the fuel pump from the supercharger is a way to increase fuel pressure with boost.

I believe your frame hole was put there by a frustrated installer. There's little room for adjustment under there. A pipe that's bent a little off or a hanger that's a little week will allow the exhaust to rattle easily against the frame.

There are plastic bushings on the blower idler at the pivot point that disintegrate. Might as well check them while you're down there. Also make sure you get a matched set of belts and the right width. The narrow more common belt will be more prone to slippage than the wider correct belt.

The numbers on my belts won't work for you because I have high RPM pulleys but the way they sit in the groove is correct.

ErnieR

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Ernie, it says in the workshop manual to oil the plastic sleeves, what should I use? I was planning to use just standard motor oil.

Yes, I have all new belts to include two matching for the supercharger. I bought them from a Avanti/Studebaker supplier.

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Unimogjohn's 63 R2 has a tan dash and another fellow I know has a tan dash as well. Neither car has a wood grain steering wheel. Wood grain dash with a wood grain wheel...???

Curt,

I think I had a brain fart and was thinking of the wood grain in GT Hawks. I went downstairs and found a fawn colored Avanti steering wheel as well as a tan dash overlay. Sometimes it helps to check before writing...

Gary

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Engine oil is fine...most times anything near the front of a Stude motor remains lubed from oil leaks so you shouldn't have to do it more than once.:)

ErnieR

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...........The return fuel line is mainly there for high heat conditions. It allows hot fuel and vapors a place to go. Underhood temps on Avantis are very high.......

Thanks, I was curious!

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I have had several requests for information on the Avanti that I am helping moving around. I get progress pictures from time to time so will post them as I get them.

The car is a R2, originally gold, but now going to Avanti Maroon. Has four speed tranny. Owner has just about completed the engine, car is in for paint, transmission is done. He has two others that will be restored at some point. Has owned this one since the 70s. He has many, many old cars, most from the teens and twentys. He is a restoration master.

So if you are following this thread, you will get two Avantis to follow. I will keep them separate as much as I can.

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The Avanti gas tank is higher than the fuel pump so a diaphragm break in the fuel pump will allow gas to seep into the enging. Keeping fuel lines in good shape is very important as the tank will drain itself dry through a crack or loose fitting.

I never suspected the fuel pump having a broken diaphram. I thought there was some kind of defective check valve or something. The car has never leaked gas or suffered from a lack of performance. live and learn. Where is a good place to get a FP kit.

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It is Friday, November 6th.

A cold, but productive day. I do not like working in the cold especially when it is in the low 40s, but it is suppose to be back in the 60s for the next couple of days.

I pressure washed again, still need to do it at least one more time as I continue to find big gobs of grease and dirt that I did not get or see previously. Really starting to sparkle.

I did take off the power steering and alternator belts and replaced them. The power steering pump does have significant play in it, but is not leaking and seems to be OK. I know I have some part leaking as I can see the little puddle of cherry juice on the ground. Just another thing to work on at some point.

I also took a look at the bad patches of paint on the back deck and top of the car. I took some heavy duty rubbing compound and my polisher, and decided to see if I could get some of it off. It looks like the previous owner had something over the car that actually ate into the paint. The pics below will show what it looked like, and another couple that show what it looked like after a couple of hours of polishing away. It did not completely come out, but with another hour or so, it just may.

Also took a video of the car running with its new tail pipes. A bit of smoke, but was just after start up and it was cold. The car is running a bit rich.

Tomorrow I do plan to take off the supercharger idler pulley, just ran out of time today. Also will make the first attempt at removing the rear drums. As a note, I still have a firm brake pedal so the bleeding was successful and there are no leaks in the system.

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Curt, Studebaker Intl has the kits for $60. Page 160 of their catalog. Part number 1558925. They also list a fuel pump for $160, Page 160 of their catalog, part number 1557015 for the R2, and $156.50, part number 1557213 for the R1. Studebaker Auto Parts @ Studebaker International

Thanks John, I'll buy my wife the kit for Christmas. Yours truly will be installing it! I looked in the caralog for the cool sediment bowl but didn't see one. Where would I find one of those with the return line?

I checked out your YouTube video , You should have given it a little juice when the mic was down by the pipes.

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Curt, I do not know if the sediment bowl is correct for the my Avanti. In my original workshop manual, tune up section, page five; it specifically talks about replacing the in-line fuel filter (not the glass bowl filter). In the engine section, page 3, figure 2, it has a picture of the R2 engine and it clearly shows the metal in line filter cannister.

I guess it is up to you to decide what is correct for your car. Maybe the R1 has the glass filter. I am going to go with the factory picture and use the cannister when I am satisfied that my fuel system is clean.

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It is Saturday, Nov. 7th.

Crack, it made me jump! Boy, that is quite a jolt when the rear drums give up. Got both drums off. Dirty, but not too bad. Cylinders do not look like they are leaking at least through the dust boots. They are going to be redone/replaced. The shoes are at the end of their life, no problem, was going to replace them too. The drums look very good, no scoring or lip on the end. Will measure them to see if they are still serviceable.

Also took off the idler pulley system. The little plastic bushing need to be replaced, one was actually worn through. The bottom one had some rust as well.

That is about it for today. Oh, I did get an email that the brake line kit had shipped and would be here on Monday/Tuesday.

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It is Sunday, Nov. 8th; and a real nice day, in the 70s.

Worked on the front brakes most of the day. Planned to take the calipers, pads, etc off for an inspection and possible re-use. Well, the calipers were frozen, pads broken off of their backing plates, hoses and pipes rusted, etc. The two of the calipers are frozen and will not retract.

So after careful thought and looking at my wallet, I have decided to go with the Jim Turner/Turner Engineering disc brake conversion in the front, and keep my drum brakes in the rear. Hopefully I can sell some of my used stuff on ebay to re-coup some of the costs.

Have ordered everything to complete the brake job now so just have to wait for parts to show up. Also decided to order the two transmission to radiator hoses that go to the transmission. I also ordered new plastic bushing for the idler arm system.

Hopefully, this is the last of the major purchases to get the old girl back on the road. I am way over budget right now, but I will have a good reliable and safe car to drive.

Here are pics of the calipers from the left side, the right side was just as bad.

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Edited by unimogjohn
changed Dave to Jim (see edit history)

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Those are some foul looking calipers! You will be very happy with the Turner brake Conversion.

Dave Thiebault has stainless sleeved rear wheel cylinders.

ErnieR

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