Cash for Clunkers!

[Guest ktm858]

I haven't seen it yet but a friend called me and said that the President wants the car dealers to put a soultion in the motors of the cars that are traded in under the cash for clunkers deal after the oil is drained to make sure that the vehicle cant be used again. Did anyone hear anything about this?

[joe_padavano]

I haven't seen it yet but a friend called me and said that the President wants the car dealers to put a soultion in the motors of the cars that are traded in under the cash for clunkers deal after the oil is drained to make sure that the vehicle cant be used again. Did anyone hear anything about this?

Yes, that is correct (though I doubt the President has mandated the actual technical solution). The bottom line is that the engine in the car must be rendered non-operable. The original intent was to actually crush the cars in question, but the law was modified to allow them to be salvaged for parts - EXCEPT the engine.

[R W Burgess]

A friend just traded in a beat up Chevy pickup for a new 2009 Altima. He had to lock the front hubs in to get it to the dealer (blew the rear out last hunting season). :eek:

He was happy to get $4500.00 for a truck that he paid $800.00 for years ago. I think the dealer still got him though, because they required him to buy an '09, instead of an '08. I can't imagine the law designating which year, only the fuel mileage difference???:confused:

Back to the beater, it had a small block Chevy engine. So, we destroy one small block? Do you know how many other small blocks there are in this country? Another feel good law gone awry that we'll all pay for in future taxes.....in my humble opinion!

W.

[Dave@Moon]

If you go to the fueleconomy.gov based qualification page for the CARS program (CARS - Car Allowance Rebate System ), it is really shocking how few cars actually qualify. Trucks, especially V8 trucks are in like Flynn, but unless you're ditching a post 1984 Caddy or Lincoln the number of cars is minuscule.

Basically you need to have a V8 to make the list. Even a Caprice has to have a V8 to make the cut, and practically everything that's front wheel drive is too efficient to qualify. Chrysler (for instance) never make a fwd car that is enough of a gas hog to qualify. Even rwd pony cars (Camaro/Mustang) must have the biggest V8 available, and then they (both) barely qualify by 1 mpg, and 90% of them are worth more than the trade-in value anyway.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Dave@Moon
typo (see edit history)

[Guest Dean_H.]

Yes, we'll be paying for a long time on this one. Another unintended consequence is poor people will getting hammered. The $800 dollar car that could get you to work, just went up to $4500. Another feel good law that slams the little guy.

[Dave@Moon]

Yes, we'll be paying for a long time on this one. Another unintended consequence is poor people will getting hammered. The $800 dollar car that could get you to work, just went up to $4500. Another feel good law that slams the little guy.

Not when you actually look at the program. Use the link I posted and try a few cars. It's a lot harder to qualify than most would believe.

[joe_padavano]

Yes, we'll be paying for a long time on this one. Another unintended consequence is poor people will getting hammered. The $800 dollar car that could get you to work, just went up to $4500. Another feel good law that slams the little guy.

Funny how when I brought this up here a month or so ago, no one was worried because it only applied to "new" cars...

[R W Burgess]

My buddy's vehicle was listed as a $4500.00 rebate, but he could have purchased an '08 and saved himself money. As Dave said, they is a lot of research involved here to keep from getting burnt by some dealers. If a poor country boy, not familiar with pc's, shows up at a dealer, he could pay more than necessary. A shame!

Wayne

Edited July 29, 2009 by R W Burgess
changed emphasis! (see edit history)

[Steve Moskowitz]

Try as I may, I can't lay off this one! Wayne, lumping all dealers into one category is unfair.:mad: What is a fair profit for someone selling a $20,000 to $50,000 item? Anyway, a lot of dealers will do their best to try and make this program work for the consumer. Sorry Wayne, I actually went easy on my answer but you hit one of my "hot" buttons! ( feel better now)

Dave is 100% right, this is no easy program. The original bill had holes in it you could drive a freight train through and would have bilked the government (you and I!) a ton. Thankfully, those loopholes were slammed shut as one of them was a license for individuals and dishonest car dealers to cheat.

This thread is legitimate, points out that parts were saved for the hobby unlike the original provisions and worthy of discussion but let's not let it get political.

[Reatta Man]

One thing I have noticed here in South Texas. Some dealers (not all, Steve) are selling cars at or near list price, while a month or two ago they were doing huge rebates and dealer discounts. NOW they are selling a car near list, but counting the clunker incentive as the discount.

As always, there ARE some dealers out there that will 'take you for a ride' any way they can....

[R W Burgess]

Try as I may, I can't lay off this one! Wayne, lumping all dealers into one category is unfair.:mad: What is a fair profit for someone selling a $20,000 to $50,000 item? Anyway, a lot of dealers will do their best to try and make this program work for the consumer. Sorry Wayne, I actually went easy on my answer but you hit one of my "hot" buttons! ( feel better now)

Dave is 100% right, this is no easy program. The original bill had holes in it you could drive a freight train through and would have bilked the government (you and I!) a ton. Thankfully, those loopholes were slammed shut as one of them was a license for individuals and dishonest car dealers to cheat.

This thread is legitimate, points out that parts were saved for the hobby unlike the original provisions and worthy of discussion but let's not let it get political.

I changed the wording Steve. I didn't mean to say every dealer, as I'm sure there are many, MANY, good dealers!

(Can't have the boss mad at me!)

Wayne

[Guest bkazmer]

As one poster says, very few CARS qualify. You must have an EPA combined rating of 18 mpg max. So very few inexpensive cars are being removed from the market. I checked about a trade than would up my actual mileage by about 25 mpg but the car doesn'y qualify. The truck subsidies live though, and trading in your 10 mpg truck on a 12 mpg truck meets the requirements.

[R W Burgess]

As one poster says, very few CARS qualify. You must have an EPA combined rating of 18 mpg max. So very few inexpensive cars are being removed from the market. I checked about a trade than would up my actual mileage by about 25 mpg but the car doesn'y qualify. The truck subsidies live though, and trading in your 10 mpg truck on a 12 mpg truck meets the requirements.

What kind of car was it Bkazmer? Dave's list designated an awful lot of vehicles as useful for this rebate program.

Wayne

[Guest bkazmer]

What kind of car was it Bkazmer? Dave's list designated an awful lot of vehicles as useful for this rebate program.

Wayne

my kids use a 96 Olds 88 - 20 mpg rated . Not eligible. intent was to trade on turbodiesel.

I have no issue with saying the goal is to get the lowest mpg vehicles traded in, but apply the same criteria for what is purchased for the deal to be eligible. New vehicle must be above the EPA fleet average target would be a simple one.

[poci1957]

Regarding the engines of the clunkers, the official rules state the dealer is to (a) drain the oil ( install a silicone silicate solution(?) and © run the engine for a few minutes to disable it permanently. At this point I still do not know who picks up or handles the "clunkers" after they are traded and disabled.

[JZRIV]

Regarding the engines of the clunkers, the official rules state the dealer is to (a) drain the oil ( install a silicone silicate solution(?) and © run the engine for a few minutes to disable it permanently. At this point I still do not know who picks up or handles the "clunkers" after they are traded and disabled.

Now theres a stupid rule that invites breaking. :confused: Is there a "Clunker Police" who goes around checking every engine to make sure it is permanently disabled? If there was then we would then have the clunker police being accused by Mr. President of racism letting the Chevys slide and not the Dodges.

I don't like it because I'm paying for someone else to get $4500 for their $800 POS. I must have missed the part where they said how this will benefit me.

Having said that, I don't blame anyone for taking advantage of it if they can. Sadly its probably a more effective economic stimulator than most of the project stimulus program.

[poci1957]

I am with you Jason, and the rules are puzzling too. I am glad the SEMA or whoever was able to get the 25 year rule in, or antique cars may have been traded in. But, as was stated above, most 1980s and 1990s cars covered by the program timeline are ineligible as they get over the posted 18 mpg. This leaves mostly trucks in the program, which may have been the goal of some lawmakers. As you noted the owner of a $500 1989 pickup is now given $3500-4500 of our tax dollars, and he is most likely to trade for another truck which will not get substantially better mileage or pollute much less. It is a windfall for him and sells a new vehicle, but may not really serve the "green" goal.

Further, the $500 truck with the now disabled engine is now worth much less to the salvage yard that may ultimately retreive it, and it is worth nothing to the low income buyer who may have purchased it before or buy it's parts from the salvage yard. But, it is as good a stimulus as any other, I guess, and it did REALLY get a lot of people out to look into a new car.

[hddennis]

"Regarding the engines of the clunkers, the official rules state the dealer is to (a) drain the oil ( install a silicone silicate solution(?) and © run the engine for a few minutes to disable it permanently."

Whose to say these same engines won't be resold at a later date by an unknowing or unscrupulous Junkyard?

My father had a Sears rebuilt 1952 Chrysler 6 destroyed by someone putting valve grinding compound in it. We never found out who or why just the evidence in the oil fill tube and a VERY loose engine in a VERY short time.

Something more positive and permanent needs to be devised to disable these engines.

Howard Dennis

[jdome]

There is a local talk radio program in my area that has had on the 2 of 4 Chrysler dealers in my county that were terminated. It appears that they cut the #1 & 2 dealers & kept #3 & 4. My guess is that #1 out sold the other 3 together and was located in the hart of the county. Go figure?

1 or both of the dealers are guests of his show every week since they were terminated. Both handle other brands. As of yesterday, one of these dealers said he had 41 clunker deals sold or pending and only 8 deals were US made cars, Ford & US made Honda models that he handles. He also has Kia, Hyundai & several others. So I don't think this is going to help put many US auto workers back to work. This same dealer mentioned that he thought that many GM & (still active) Chrysler dealers may be at a low inventory disadvantage since GM &Chry. are just now getting back into production after bankruptcy.

According to these dealers, the clunkers are to be turned over to a "certified" recycle yard. It is not the dealers responsibility to disable or crush the car. So I don't think the dealer can cheat the system.

One dealer said that of the $1 billion set aside for the program, $600 mil. is for rebates and $400 mil is for administration of the program. That seems believable to me (for a gov't program) but I would like to verify it.

[Dave@Moon]

Something more positive and permanent needs to be devised to disable these engines.

I believe that the disabling of the engines is done this way so as not to destroy their scrap value. At roughly 80 cents a pound for iron and $1.50/lb. for aluminum, there's little difference in value between a (common) running junk engine and an inoperable one. I don't see too many people taking the risk of trying to pass a ruined engine off as salvageable.

[DLynskey]

Most people who are driving an $800 clunker can't afford a new car. The subsidy doesn't help them. In fact, the $2000 van they might have upgraded to will now be in the scrap heap.

Most of the qualifying clunkers which are being traded in are probably the owners' 3rd and 4th vehicle which were seldom driven anyway -- not contributing much to pollution. It will be interesting to see how it all works out.

By the way. I've noticed most of the TV ads around here are picturing non-qualifying vehicles in their promotions. One shows a mid-80's Sentra, another a 70's pickup being turned in. Neither would qualify in the real world.

Don

[Guest Bob Call]

You guys are missing the point of the clunker legislation. The purpose was to try to help move some of the inventory of the government controlled auto makers, GM and Chrysler. There isn't enough money allocated and the rules are to restrictive to make any real difference in the overall average gas mileage of the millions of cars in America.

--------------------------------------------

We'll all be drinkin' that free Bubble Up and eating that rainbow stew.

Merle Haggard 1981

CMT : Videos : Merle Haggard : Rainbow Stew

[Reatta Man]

You guys are missing the point of the clunker legislation. The purpose was to try to help move some of the inventory of the government controlled auto makers, GM and Chrysler. /QUOTE]

Then they should have restricted the program to AMERICAN cars!!!!

[Reatta Man]

As one poster says, very few CARS qualify. The truck subsidies live though, and trading in your 10 mpg truck on a 12 mpg truck meets the requirements.

Ahhh, the wisdom and beauty of a government program at work......

[Guest bkazmer]

I agree that restricting to a vehicle built in the US would make sense for helping US workers. Nameplate wouldn't count for anything. (Putting a Chevy badge on doesn't make it not built at Puebla)

The difficulty is when a vehicle is built in multiple plants, some in the US , some outside.

[MCHinson]

It is easy enough to determine if a vehicle is assembled in the US. The first digit of the VIN will be "1". Take a look at a bunch of vehiicles and you will see some surprises when you compare what you think is US built to what really is.

[Dave@Moon]

The difficulty is when a vehicle is built in multiple plants, some in the US , some outside.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

What do you mean "when"? They all are "built in multiple plants"/countries now. The highest domestic parts content of any U.S. assembled car is 90% (Ford Taurus), and only 11 cars have a content over 80% (including 4 Toyotas and a Honda). In terms of overall domestic content (including assembly costs) the most "American made" car in existence for 2009 is.....

....are you ready for this?.....

...the Toyota Camry!

That's right. In 2009 if you want to keep your money inside this country the most responsible car you can purchase to that effect is a Toyota. Not even the (now) second place F150 is as "American" as a Camry.

( The Cars.com American-Made Index - Cars.com )

And that's the unimportant reason why the government didn't restrict this program to "American" cars (if you can call the fact that there aren't any true "American" cars any more unimportant). The fact of the matter is using this program to aid only domestic manufacturers would run 100% against the stated purpose of the legislation, which is to raise the average fuel economy of vehicles on American roads.

I would agree that the stated purpose and the primary intended effect are not likely the same, and that car sales are what people are really looking for here. However until what's left of the "Big 3" catch up to the other manufacturers in quality, fuel-efficient cars, it would be an obvious contradiction in terms and a political nightmare to try and restrict programs like this to "Big 3" products.....even if there was a meaningful difference (or a specified difference) in domestic content for eligible cars.

Edited July 30, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history)

[Dave@Moon]

As one poster says, very few CARS qualify. The truck subsidies live though, and trading in your 10 mpg truck on a 12 mpg truck meets the requirements.

Ahhh, the wisdom and beauty of a government program at work......

Going from 10 to 12 mpg is a significant change. At 10,000 miles/yr. (a laughably small figure for most trucks), that's a fuel savings of 166.7 gal/yr. Using the guideline limits for cars of 18 and 25 mpg results in a savings of 155.6 gal./yr. at 10,000 miles/yr.

There are some bright people working for the government. Give 'em a break.

[Guest bkazmer]

I can do the mpg math as well as anyone. My point is that making a 12 mpg choice, while significantly better than a 10 mpg, choice, when 30 and 40 mpg choices are available, is not laudable. And not worthy of tax dollars.

I'm not saying the 12 mpg choice shouldn't be there - if you want to buy it, for whatever reason, perceived or real need, go ahead. But tax $ for it?????

Trucks have been subsidized vs. cars , in one way or another , for a long time (old 2 Tier CAFE, new weight scale CAFE, etc), as a way to favor Ford, GM, and Chrysler who are relatively stronger in the segment. Not surprisingly, they focused on this area at the expense of other products, and are having to play catch-up. I'd rather see cars and trucks under one standard, with perhaps a rigorous standard for a professional loophole (primary income as a tradesman or farmer).

The point on total content is spot on, but those are average numbers and the assembly plant does contribute to them(and I meant "when" to mean "in the cases where" rather than "in the future"). The difficulty remains that if you do this, some GMT900's will qualify and others won't, for example. How is the dealer supposed to manage this? Or the OEM can only fill the order with a vehicle build at Laredo instead of Puebla. Very awkward.

[Dave@Moon]

I'm not saying the 12 mpg choice shouldn't be there - if you want to buy it, for whatever reason, perceived or real need, go ahead. But tax $ for it?????

The tax money is spent to obtain the gas savings, and the concomitant benefits to society. Be they from someone who needs and uses a truck for what it is, or a poseur with an Amor-All covered bedliner (for the purposes of this program) does not matter.

Hopefully the poseur will have learned by now how out-of-step with fashion and reality he/she has become. If not, it's unlikely that the purpose of this program would even matter to him/her. What matters is the result.

[Guest bkazmer]

Being run by politicians , there are issues in the way of getting the result that require more , um, will than available. And the actual agenda is not that single-focused.

There are proven methods of reducing gas consumption - per gallon taxes and graduated registration fees. Individuals will make purchase decisions accordingly. It also increases revenue rather than spending.

[Restorer32]

Scrap steel now sells for about 2 cents/pound and aluminum is at 25 cents/pound. Scrap steel has NEVER been worth .80/pound.

[Dave@Moon]

Scrap steel now sells for about 2 cents/pound and aluminum is at 25 cents/pound. Scrap steel has NEVER been worth .80/pound.

The online sources I used for the first post were not accurate. Scrap iron had been trading as high as 40 cents/lb. recently, but is now hovering around 10 cents/lb. ( Scrap Metal Prices and Scrap Metal Auctions Historical Steel Price Index – American Metal Market AMM ) Aluminum scrap was over $1.00/lb until recently ( Aluminum Scrap Metal Prices, Aluminum scrap recycling prices for sheet, turnings, cast aluminum, litho, 5052, 6061, 6063 and UBC (Used Beverage Cans) ), and has recently crashed to around 28 cents/lb. ( Scrap Aluminum Prices - USA ).

Both metals will recover as soon as the economic downturn is over, much like gasoline prices will.

[msmazcol]

Anyone besides me find it interesting that this clunker program was offered up this summer when gas for whatever reason is at a doable number? Where the heck was this program when our eyes were bleeding at the gas pump last season?

Does anyone beside me feel like the ping pong ball in a game at the mental health hospital?

:p :p

[ted sweet]

appears its over, all money maybe used up.

[keiser31]

appears its over, all money maybe used up.

I don't know about THAT! I hear those ads every night and every day about "Now we are going to abide by the Cash for Clunker program" from the dealerships around here.

[Dave@Moon]

appears its over, all money maybe used up.

White House reviewing 'cash for clunkers' program - Yahoo! Finance

It's not over yet, but the program is becomming a victim of it's own success. If you're planning on using it, better jump on it soon!

[2doorcoupeman]

My brother just got one heck of a deal,got $5000 on his 2000 230,000 mile explorer plus 1.9 financing for a slighty used nissan(sigh) exterra.Me,on the other hand,didn't use the cash for clunkers,kept my truck,but will use the tax deal.My new car does get about 10mpg better than the truck.)

[Restorer32]

The online sources I used for the first post were not accurate. Scrap iron had been trading as high as 40 cents/lb. recently, but is now hovering around 10 cents/lb. ( Scrap Metal Prices and Scrap Metal Auctions Historical Steel Price Index – American Metal Market AMM ) Aluminum scrap was over $1.00/lb until recently ( Aluminum Scrap Metal Prices, Aluminum scrap recycling prices for sheet, turnings, cast aluminum, litho, 5052, 6061, 6063 and UBC (Used Beverage Cans) ), and has recently crashed to around 28 cents/lb. ( Scrap Aluminum Prices - USA ).

No idea where you get your figures. This morning the buy price for scrap steel is 5 cents/pound and cast iron is 3 cents/pound. If you are going to quote "facts" to support your arguments you should try to make those facts accurate. Highest buy price locally for auto body steel scrap was 15 cents/pound last year. Historically scrap steel stays at 1-3 cents/pound, cast iron a bit more. The factory that uses the scrap may pay your prices but that's after sorting, chopping and cleaning. Every town has one or more places buying scrap metals. All it takes is a phone call. Back in the 1960's there was even a market for scrap rubber innertubes, usually 5 cents/pound.

[Dave@Moon]

No idea where you get your figures.

The blue print in the post are links. Read them.

And yes, you do get a different price if you show up at the scrap yard gate with a rusty car frame and some old mufflers than you'd get delivering a shipping container of drained engine blocks to the smelter. Which one were we talking about?