Question in Lebanon!

[novaman]

I don't have much time left on lunch so I have to make this fast.

I believe AACA looks at the cars not competing aginat each other ins this sense:

Part A:

Each car comes onto the show field with 400 points. points are deducted on each car according to that cars flaws, not if it is prettier than the car/part on the car next to it. you now have a final score.

Part B:Remember in grade school when you took a test. you didn't compete against the kids in class. you did you're best to achive a level that would get you a passing grade perferable getting an A (1st place). Remember the thing called the "curve", when the smartest kid in class could only achive a 90% becuase it was tough (as a nit-picky judge could do to your class). That test was counted as 100% then the kids within ten points of the actual score also got an A. AACA judging is basically the same thing. the 365 min point is to keep the "lazy, high school flunky" from achiving an "A" because all the other kids skipped the test that day.

[Guest quadfins]

What happens when it works the other way?

365 is the threshold for an A, but the brainiac scores 400, so the A range is raised to 390 and above.

Wouldn't you feel betrayed?

[Guest Stonefish]

Shazam!

[John348]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AACA judging is basically the same thing.

</div></div>

Far from it.

As long as the highest point car dictates anything or sets the bar, you are compeating against the other cars.

[Bhigdog]

Look at it this way. It takes 390 points for a car to be a true Senior car. If one lucks out and his class does not have a high point car in it he can get the award with LESS than 390 points. As a GIFT.

How can you argue with that except from the perspective of the high point car being "down graded".........Bob

[Guest Stonefish]

I think most of the issues with the 10pt rule happen at the Jr. level more than the Sr. level.

[Bhigdog]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think most of the issues with the 10pt rule happen at the Jr. level more than the Sr. level.

</div></div>

Just change Sr to Jr and the points. The rational is the same..........Bob

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AACA judging is basically the same thing.

</div></div>

Far from it.

As long as the highest point car dictates anything or sets the bar, you are compeating against the other cars.

What I was trying to get across in the prior post was:

a) That all vehicles has the potential of achieving a perfect score. Just as you as a student had the opportunity of achieving a perfect score on an exam. No competition so far

The vehicle receives its score based on that vehicle's merits. No other vehicle on the show field affects that score. Just like taking that exam, another student's exam doesn't affect your exam score (unless your cheating off theirs) no competition so far.

c)At the end of the day, all the cars scores are gathered and grouped into ten point ranges just a a teacher grading an exam on a curve when the top student's grade isn't a perfect score. Those in the top group gets a A/1st second group a B/2nd, etc. I really don't see much you could call competition here after being to other shows where if you weren't one of the top three cars in the class you didn't take home anything. If the vehicle could score a 390+ anyways this all wouldn't make any difference anyways as it would be within the ten points anyways no matter where the 10 point range started. This just makes more vehicles eligible for awards instead of only one person taking home a 1st.

d) Now we get to the "but my car made the 365 but I didn't get a 1st". At this point I can agree with the idea of there possibly being competition, but let's look at three things here:

1) No minimum score. Have you been to a meet out west? There are a lot of classes that have NO vehicles in them. What a Perfect opportunity for me to get a first with my Chevy II. Would you be happy to see this car 1963 II4004drsd as an AACA JR or SR car because I took it a meet out west and there was nobody else in my class. This is what the 365 is meant to prevent.

2) If you were to do away with the "10 point spread", they will of course raise the minimum. The object to this is for owners to restore the vehicles to 400 point level. if they left the minimum score 365 for a 1st, It doesn't encourage the top notch restoration. Also at 365 I could come in with a vehicle with a bunch of missing or poor condition parts and still take home a first. Heck, I could take a 400 point car say a 30's Packard, paint it Plum Crazy (70's Cuda) and take a first (10 point deduction, enough from keeping you from getting a first currently). At 365, I could bring a '5 with radial tires 5x3pt, halogen headlights 2x5pt, aftermarket intake 10pt and eldlebrock carb 10pt and still take home a first. Whatever the min score is, it still ends up being a point spread but at this point, if someone doesn't make it then they will complain the standard is too tough and the min should be lowered.

3)as a result of 2 and raising the points needed for a first, that will also trickle down and affect those that could recieve a 2nd or 3rd.

As for how I would feel if bitten by the ten point rule. It wouldn't bother me. To me the day is about showing the cars, talking to other old car people, hopefully learning new things either about my car or other people's cars. Yes, it would be nice to take the award home at the end of the day but, I'm not going to let a $15 (or however much) trophy determine whether it was a good day or bad day. Also I know what the rules are and accept them as they are. What I don't like is when you and your dad enter the STOCK Chevy II class and have the only two STOCK Chevy IIs in the show and two others take home the first and second. One of the cars had a rollcage and slicks!! (non-AACA show) What part of stock don't the judges understand?? The only time I was upset leaving a show in 26 years.

[novaman]

Just thought of something else, I just got the seats done for my station wagon. IF we were to use 365 as the only requirement for 1st and PRESUMING the rest of my 4dr I used as an example in the prvious post was RESTORED execpt the front seat, answer me this:

I have a car that would score above the 365 even with a correct seat but in bad condition. It is still usable. seat cushion/back is max of 5 points so the deduction wouldn't be enough to knock me out. Why would I want to pay over $1,000 to get the seats redone?

[John348]

Novaman,

FYI, I am not complaining about the 365, I think it is a rather fair cutoff point. While many owners will never have the financial fortitude to acheive a 399 point car, because we all know correctness comes with a price. The owners leave feeling they will never have a shot as long as those high dollar cars are in the class. In some classes there always will be a new restoration "fresh out of the box" so it is only human to feel frustrated. I just think the fairest way to do it is all cars that score 385 and higher move up, and only the highest vehicle(one)if none are above 385 and above 365. This give the owner something to shoot for rather to hope to come within 10 points. Regardless as long as that wording is used people have the impression that they are competing. I am the National Judging Chair for the VCCA and I have heard similar complaints, until we set a point bar. I think the AACA system is very good, but there is always room for improvement.

I have never had the pleasure to attend a meet out West for the AACA. I have noticed the same with the VCCA that judging is not really important and the classes do not have the same number of vehicles as they do in the East.

Later,

[charlier]

What I don't like is when you and your dad enter the STOCK Chevy II class and have the only two STOCK Chevy IIs in the show and two others take home the first and second. One of the cars had a rollcage and slicks!! (non-AACA show) What part of stock don't the judges understand?? The only time I was upset leaving a show in 26 years.

novaman, the non AACA car shows I attend and/or judge at always make me laugh when it comes to their definition of "Stock". I hear the same question over and over and over to which I usually laugh OUT LOUD.

Q: How many MODIFICATIONS can my car have when it is entered in the STOCK class????

I guess it is just me. A MODIFIED vehicle belongs in the MODIFIED class at these shows.

The modified classes tend to have MANY MORE entries than the stock classes. Modified car owners who are "Trophy Hounds" think that they stand a better chance of an award if they put their modified car in the stock class (ie sandbagging). That does not always work for them if the stock class judge deducts for their modification (which is my policy and the policy of most of these events).

This situation gets very interesting when the car owner of a modified vehicle (in a stock class) gets very upset and wants to know WHY they did not win. When I judge cars like that I usually write down all the mods that deductions were taken for. After that list gets to 15-20+ modification I usually stop since the car owner usually realizes that the judge knows what they were trying to do (ie sandbagging) and has called them on it.

[Guest Stonefish]

If, in fact, cars are not in competition with each other…as many have stated. Why is it always recommended (and it has to me on several occasions) to attend a smaller national event: "Go where fewer cars turn up" or "you have a better chance at getting your First Junior outside of Hershey".

If a car meets the minimum requirement to achieve a First Junior…regardless of what cars are in the class…the cars should be awarded as such.

Does the AACA keep track or keep historic records on a particular car's point record from every show it attends? If so, I would guess it is not information that can be accessed by a car owner. Sure would be interesting to see…..

[novaman]

I have never had the pleasure to attend a meet out West for the AACA. I have noticed the same with the VCCA that judging is not really important and the classes do not have the same number of vehicles as they do in the East.

Later,

Why is it always recommended (and it has to me on several occasions) to attend a smaller national event: "Go where fewer cars turn up" or "you have a better chance at getting your First Junior outside of Hershey".

I'm tying the two together. If you take a close look at the membership and I'm surre it applies to VCCA also, the number of members per sq area west of the mississippi is much smaller. Look at Hershey region with I think I heard something like 500+ members, NC Region with 600+ members and Hornet's Nest Region which I believe is 100+, when talking area that those regions cover your not talking a very large area for over 1,200 members and there are a lot of other regions in those same areas. With large membership numbers like that, there are a large number of vehicles that could turn out for a Meet. Less populated areas out west aren't going to draw as many cars. With that lower number or cars turning out there is a less likely chance of that 400 point car showing up that everyone dreads. whichs lowers the standard for everyone else. The AACA point system is based on those within ten points get the same award. Ideally that would be everyone 390+ but that wouldn't be practiacal. so it is within 10 points of the highest point car which brings more cars into that award level. What everyone seems to get hung up on it the "saftey" of 365 which prevents someone from bringing a piece of junk to a meet and taking home a 1st.

[novaman]

If, in fact, cars are not in competition with each other…as many have stated. Why is it always recommended (and it has to me on several occasions) to attend a smaller national event: "Go where fewer cars turn up" or "you have a better chance at getting your First Junior outside of Hershey".

If a car meets the minimum requirement to achieve a First Junior…regardless of what cars are in the class…the cars should be awarded as such.

Does the AACA keep track or keep historic records on a particular car's point record from every show it attends? If so, I would guess it is not information that can be accessed by a car owner. Sure would be interesting to see…..

AACA does and they have followed some cars that have attended every meet ina year and those cars scored within a few points of itself at each meet. The deductions might not have been the same items each time, but the scores were close.

What I'd be curiuos to see is how many vehicles scored 385 or worse and still got thier first due to the "curve" of just needing to be within ten points of the highest car. If you go to a specified point cut off, you know as well as I do, that cut off will be raised. I personaly know of a number of cars I've judged that would fall in that group.

[Bob Hill]

Why don't we just give everyone a 1st Junior and that way no one complains

I for one am sick and tired of folks wanting to change the rules so they can win. If your car is good enough, the 10 point spread won't hurt you. If your car isn't good enough, you lose because you didn't deserve the award. That is called life - accept the rules or move on.

I earned my Senior awards because my cars were good enough to win, not because I wanted the rules changed so I could win. Keep it up and a Senior Award will be meaningless.

BOB (with flame suit on)

[John348]

I for one am sick and tired of folks wanting to change the rules so they can win. If your car is good enough, the 10 point spread won't hurt you. If your car isn't good enough, you lose because you didn't deserve the award. That is called life - accept the rules or move on.

Bob,

Do you mean just like the battery and headlight rules? Because these are the type of rules that will dilute the quality of the winning vehicles, and the value of the awards. My replies to this thread are not as a "sore looser" my cars are good enough and have won, and I even had won a Bomgardner with one of them in 2007. I feel I am entitled to offer my view as a "winner" just like you.

What if there is a class that has six cars all around 370, now they all move up, you are not going to tell me that will not dilute the system? But then again if the physical score sheet is never returned, nobody will know the point value.

I am not concerned about my awards, I earned them already, but we all should be concerend with the people who leave not feeling satisfied with the system because they feel it is unfair. There will always be a certain percentage that will never be happy. There is a way for someone to loose and feel good about it, and telling people to "accept the rules the rules or move on" is far from doing that. This is the type of comment that only reinforces the negative feelings anyone may have. I am sure it was not done intentionally, if I were to be on the loosing side and someone said that to me I do not think I would return, would you?

Edited July 4, 2009 by Biscayne John (see edit history)

[Guest Stonefish]

I too have multiple award winning cars. I just don't feel the need to post their accomplishments in my signature. Personally, another award on the mantle is just another dust collector...and not the reason I go to shows. Awards outside of AACA, such as marque focused shows, carry more weight in my eyes. I've seen too many cars that are plagued with wrong engines, modifications and modern parts get senior awards too make me desire such status.

bottom line for me is..... If a car is "good enough" and reaches the minimum number and above to receive a Jr. or Sr....it should. REGARDLESS, of any other car in the class.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Stonefish (see edit history)

[ted sweet]

huh

[Guest billybird]

After reading this this interesting thread, I feel compelled to make a few comments. First off, I've given much though for many years about the "10 point rule". I feel the current system that AACA has in place is fine for this club. If you think about it, the AACA judges vehicles in "generallties "compared to some marquee clubs who look for which way the cotter pins are pointing. What I'm saying is, leave the X#of points wins regardless, to those clubs where 5 people are on your car for 40 min. I may draw some criticism here, but I have found the AACA to be a relative "cakewalk" compared to some marquee clubs.

[Bhigdog]

After reading this this interesting thread, I feel compelled to make a few comments. First off, I've given much though for many years about the "10 point rule". I feel the current system that AACA has in place is fine for this club. If you think about it, the AACA judges vehicles in "generallties "compared to some marquee clubs who look for which way the cotter pins are pointing. What I'm saying is, leave the X#of points wins regardless, to those clubs where 5 people are on your car for 40 min. I may draw some criticism here, but I have found the AACA to be a relative "cakewalk" compared to some marquee clubs.

Boy, you got that right. The judging in the AACA is very liberal. The up side to that is it makes a lot of "contestants" feel good to get an award. The down side is it makes a guy that went all out on his restoration wonder why he bothered. I suppose in the whole scheme of things almost any 40+ year old car that makes it on the show field under it's own power deserves some recognition. Kind of like telling your beat up old uncle how good he looks, and meaning it.................Bob