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Guest imported_mossiyjack

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Guest imported_mossiyjack

What happens when an old engine is introduced to detergent oil. I've always heard it is a No-No! Is this of interest to anyone else?

Cheers, Mossiyjack

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What MAY (or may not) happen is exactly what you'd expect if you think about it a bit. Depending on the engine condition there is the possibility that the detergent can dislodge old sludge and residue and circulate it thru your engine. Whether you want to try it or not, anyone buying a collector-type car who doesn't know the recent engine history should drop the oil pan and clean it, the pump intake screen, and other accessible areas thoroughly before doing their first oil change. Once the system is relatively clean, it's a much easier and less-risky choice about oil types.

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Guest Trunk Rack

Disappointing that even today there is a common mis-conception about "detergent" and "multi-grade" oil.

Folks, please, those terms were products of the ADVERTISING folks who were in charge of getting you to BUY the stuff. Those terms have NOTHING to do with the real world of oil chemistry.

It is true that in the first few years (late 1940's) they had some problems with sludge dissolving. That was over by the early 1950's. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DETERGENT" oil. It is an ADVERTISING phrase. What "detergent" oil REALLY means, is that thru chemistry, they have figured out a way so that the molecules that FORM sludge can not link up. Use it and your motor will not sludge up. Has NO effect on EXISTING sludge any different from ANY oil. NONE. If you start using a badly sludged up engine, ANY oil may act as a solvent & loosen up sludge.

"SINGLE GRADE" is actully "multi-grade", in that it has dramatic changes in viscosity as it warms up. It can be thick as sour cream when cold, meaning if you start your motor at zero F with 30 W oil, it will be too thick to lubricate, and you will damage your engine. It is ONLY the advertised grade at around 210 degrees. Above that, and it can get thin as water, causing damage.

So called "MULTI GRADE" oil simply means you can use it at ANY temp. within its design limits and those 'spec'd" by the engine manufacturer. Thus MULTI GRADE oil will flow at its rated grade at extremely cold temps, providing you with safe "start up" lubrication, but not THIN OUT at extremes of temp.

It never ceases to amaze me how many back-yard mechanics with only a high school course in physics and chemistry (if that) think they know more about this subject than the graduate chemical engineers and mechanical engineers who design these things.

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Guest Trunk Rack

of course OWEN is absolutey right - my sentence SHOULD have had the additional wording, to the effect that so called "mutli-grade" oils do not thin out at "ANYWHERE NEAR AS BADLY AS SO CALLED "single grade" oils."

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Guest Bluesky636

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trunk Rack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">of course OWEN is absolutey right - my sentence SHOULD have had the additional wording, to the effect that so called "mutli-grade" oils do not thin out at "ANYWHERE NEAR AS BADLY AS SO CALLED "single grade" oils." </div></div>

So what oil company do you design motor oil for? Frankly, after reading your post, I think you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

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must be nice to have so little going on in your own life that you can sit on your computer and belittle someone that is trying to help others by imparting information, you should be nice to people or karma will give you cancer.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trunk Rack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">of course OWEN is absolutey right - my sentence SHOULD have had the additional wording, to the effect that so called "mutli-grade" oils do not thin out at "ANYWHERE NEAR AS BADLY AS SO CALLED "single grade" oils." </div></div>

So what oil company do you design motor oil for? Frankly, after reading your post, I think you don't have a clue what you are talking about. </div></div>

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Guest Bluesky636

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: foxhole</div><div class="ubbcode-body">must be nice to have so little going on in your own life that you can sit on your computer and belittle someone that is trying to help others by imparting information, you should be nice to people or karma will give you cancer.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Bill_Haegele</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trunk Rack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">of course OWEN is absolutey right - my sentence SHOULD have had the additional wording, to the effect that so called "mutli-grade" oils do not thin out at "ANYWHERE NEAR AS BADLY AS SO CALLED "single grade" oils." </div></div>

So what oil company do you design motor oil for? Frankly, after reading your post, I think you don't have a clue what you are talking about. </div></div> </div></div>

Ummm, so you believe and agree with the statements made by Trunk Rack about "detergent motor oil," "so-called single grade oil," and "so-called multi-grade oil?" If so, then perhaps both of you should do a little research into motor oils and what these terms mean.

And no, I am not a motor oil specialist but I have done my research and understand what these terms mean and anyone who has would never describe them the way Trunk Rack has. So no, I don't believe that he knows what he is talking about. If he does, he has communicated that knowledge poorly.

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Guest Trunk Rack

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Owen_Dyneto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What MAY ..... anyone buying a collector-type car who doesn't know the recent engine history should drop the oil pan and clean it, the pump intake screen, and other accessible areas thoroughly before doing their first oil change. . . . . </div></div>

= = = = = = =

Excellent advice, especially for older cars without "full flow" oil filters.

OWEN - I would go further and say "dropping the pan" should be MANDATORY before starting ANY engine you have just aquired and are not familiar with its history.

ESPECIALLY if it has been sitting for a while, and/or hasn't had its pan "dropped" recently. And ESPECIALLY if it is from an "in line_ engine with a long oil pan, and/or the big "super power" multi-cylinder pre-war cars. That stuff WILL NOT DRAIN OUT from the drain-plug hole.

With all those big long flat internal spaces, stuff builds up. Many of these older engines do not have "floating" oil pump "pick-ups".

I personally think it is a wise shop proceedure to "drop" the oil pan on a older in service "collector car" at LEAST once every two or three years and clean it out. These older motors do not and can not "burn" as "clean" as a modern motor. So it is inevitable that crap builds up down there.

The only point of disagreement I have with OWEN's excellent post, is his suggestion this is relevant to "detergent" oil only. NO NO NO... If there is sludge build-up, especially in an engine that hasn't been run for a while, and the stuff has started to "flake" and dry up, ANY driving with ANY hot oil WILL act as a solvent and start loosening it.

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Peter, referring back to your earlier comment...."THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DETERGENT" oil. It is an ADVERTISING phrase. What "detergent" oil REALLY means, is that thru chemistry, they have figured out a way so that the molecules that FORM sludge can not link up".....

You are technically incorrect on this point though perhaps you're hung up on semantics. The property you describe, preventing the particles from forming a sludge, is accomplished by formulating a dispersant into the oil, and dispersing agents are of the large general family of detergents. The dispersants allow particulates to remain "in suspension" in the liquid phase and then ultimately to be removed by the filter.

I spent many years as a research chemist in the detergent area, trust me on this.

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Guest Bluesky636

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Owen_Dyneto</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Peter, referring back to your earlier comment...."THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "DETERGENT" oil. It is an ADVERTISING phrase. What "detergent" oil REALLY means, is that thru chemistry, they have figured out a way so that the molecules that FORM sludge can not link up".....

You are technically incorrect on this point though perhaps you're hung up on semantics. The property you describe, preventing the particles from forming a sludge, is accomplished by formulating a dispersant into the oil, and dispersing agents are of the large general family of detergents. The dispersants allow particulates to remain "in suspension" in the liquid phase and then ultimately to be removed by the filter.

I spent many years as a research chemist in the detergent area, trust me on this. </div></div>

Trunk Rack is also "technically incorrect" in his "definitions" of "so-called single grade" and "so-called multigrade" oils.

Of course a single weight oil is thicker at low temps and thinner at high temps, that is a charateristic of ANY organic liquid. That does not make a single grade oil a multigrade oil. Yes, single grade weights are measured at one temperature. Multigrade oils are measured across a RANGE of temperatures, hence they act like a thin oil (10w) at low temps and thicker oils (40) at higher temps. But even multigrade oils will break down and thin out if they get hot enough. That also happens as they age.

If you want good, unbiased information on motor oil for your car, go to http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/.

This page gives a brief but excellent description of motor oil detergents and Viscosity Index Improvers that are used to make a multigrade oil out of a base single grade oil:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=62:article-of-the-month&catid=40:past-articles-of-the-month&Itemid=78.

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Guest Trunk Rack

OWEN - I do NOT "trust you on this" simply because I dont know enough personally to question your statements.

All I can relate is what I read in the various technical publications.

As noted above, my only real "complaint" against your discussion on "dropping" oil pans to clean em out, is I wanted to emphasize how RIGHT you are by suggesting how IMPORTANT it is in ALL cases involving old cars.

And I trust you agree that as I noted earlier, ANY engine that has sludged up, then allowed to sit and the sludge start to dry out, is AT RISK OF MAJOR DAMAGE from the solvent effect of ANY hot oil; not just "detergent" type oils.

Again, I am a strong believer and thus strongly recommend that ANY older collector car's oil pan be "dropped" and cleaned out at regular intervals. Excellent time to pull off a couple of rod-caps to see how the bearings are doing.

ONE of the many reasons why it is unwise to use "cheap" (meaning so called "non-detergent" ) oils is the fact that they do not have the corrosion and acid fighters that "detergent" oils do. When abused with the "cheap" oils of the old days, coupled with lack of frequent oil changes, you can get get all kinds of nasty things happen to your bearings. The copper-lead bearings introduced by Federal Mougal and installed in Packards beginning in 1935 production were especially sensitive to acid action.

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Guest Trunk Rack

[quote name=....... But even multigrade oils will break down and thin out if they get hot enough. That also happens as they age.

Of course you are correct. Good post. Dosnt look like we disagree.

Sadly, many people THINK that when a worn engine starts to make noise, they are temporarily solving the problem by using a "single grade" 40 or even 50 weight oil. Sure, when it is not really hot, it will quiet down a badly worn engine. It also wont permit proper lubrication to other parts.

When it gets really hot, it may be MUCH thinner than a "multi grade" (translation MORE CONSTANT VISCOSITY) oil.

Sounds to me we are pretty much in agreement.

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Gentlemen. Please explain a specific situation to me. My engine has 280,000 miles since overhaul. The bearings (babbitt) had .0015" clearance when installed 27 years ago and the one bearing I had out three years ago had .002" clearance. When I use straight 20 wt oil I have 20lbs pressure at an idle at start up and 40lbs at highway speed. After four hours (200 miles)the pressure is the same at highway speed and drops to 15lbs at an idle. The one time when I couldn't get single weight oil I used 10/30. Start up was the same but after 200 miles my pressure dropped to 30lbs at speed and 10lbs at an idle. This is still with in the accepted range according to my operators manual.

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Guest Trunk Rack

Sounds to me to be pretty simple - at the particular oil temps. you are running, the 20W is "thicker" than the 10W-30.

I dont see anything particularly surprising about that, nor should it be any reason for concern.

(sounds to me like your motor is in pretty durn good shape, and is giving impressive service - bet you change your oil and filter at appropriate intervals for your driving conditions ! )

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I change it every 3 months or 3000 miles. I used to change it every thousand miles but with the modern oils and the new cars having an extended period I have been using 3000 miles a a point for over 25 years. I also have not had to add any oil between changes since my engine overhaul. It seems to be down a quart at the time to change it. I think running the car every day and out on the highway at least once a week has a lot to do with longevity.

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Guest Bluesky636

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trunk Rack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OWEN - I do NOT "trust you on this" simply because I dont know enough personally to question your statements.

.....

And I trust you agree that as I noted earlier, ANY engine that has sludged up, then allowed to sit and the sludge start to dry out, is AT RISK OF MAJOR DAMAGE from the solvent effect of ANY hot oil; not just "detergent" type oils.

.....

ONE of the many reasons why it is unwise to use "cheap" (meaning so called "non-detergent" ) oils is the fact that they do not have the corrosion and acid fighters that "detergent" oils do. </div></div>

Do you need to see Owen's degree and resume before you trust him?

In your original post you stated flat out that there is no such thing as "detergent" and "non-detergent" motor oils. Please make up your mind.

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Guest Bluesky636

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trunk Rack</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Of course you are correct. Good post. Dosnt look like we disagree.

Sadly, many people THINK that when a worn engine starts to make noise, they are temporarily solving the problem by using a "single grade" 40 or even 50 weight oil. Sure, when it is not really hot, it will quiet down a badly worn engine. It also wont permit proper lubrication to other parts.

When it gets really hot, it may be MUCH thinner than a "multi grade" (translation MORE CONSTANT VISCOSITY) oil.

Sounds to me we are pretty much in agreement. </div></div>

No, we do NOT agree.

Now you are acknowledging that a 40 or 50 weight is in fact "single grade," which is correct. A "multi-grade" oil is NOT "MORE CONSTANT VISCOSITY." Its viscosity varies with temperature. Read Bob Is The Oil Guy for gosh sakes and get your terminology straight.

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Guest Trunk Rack

[quote . . . No, we do NOT agree.

Now you are acknowledging that a 40 or 50 weight is in fact "single grade," which is correct. A "multi-grade" oil is NOT "MORE CONSTANT VISCOSITY." Its viscosity varies with temperature. Read Bob Is The Oil Guy for gosh sakes and get your terminology straight. . . . .

You are being stubborn. We DO agree. You are just trying to wrap your mind around the "politically correct" terminology which, if you thought it thru, we both agree is NUTS.

How about THIS for an experiment to show you how we agree. Take two cans of oil - any brand. One is "single grade" 30, and the other is 10W-30. Now put em in your freezer overnight. Now take em out and pour em side by side thru the same sized opening. You know DURN WELL what the difference in pour-rate will be !

Now take two more cans of oil - ANY brand. One is 30, the other 10W-30. Stick em both in a big pot of boiling water. Now open em both and pour em both out from the same sized opening. At boiling point, you know DURN well the pour rate will be roughly the same.

Obviously we both know that the viscosity of the cheap single grade oil changes FAR more dramatically than the 10W-30, which will provide safe lubrication thru a MUCH wider operating temp. range.

There are tables somewhere that show the typical "multi-grade" oil has a higher safe operating temp. limit than so called "single grade" oils. Cant recall the details.

If Owen wants to call the chemical process in "detergent" oils "detergents", I certainly cant argue with him given his stated background in chemistry. If he wants to call that chemical process by which "detergent" oil has additives that reduce the "linking up" of the sludge molecules, I have to accept that.

However, the fact remains that HOT OIL can losen sludge. ANY hot oil. Single grade, multi grade, detergent, etc. And losened sludge is BIG TROUBLE.

Bottom line - sludge can be a SERIOUS problem on older engines with big fat long oil pans that dont drain well. Especially when they have been run for any length of time on poor quality (read "non-detergent") oils. Especially as they get older, with more by-products of combustion leaking down the rings.

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Guest Bluesky636

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Trunk Rack</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are being stubborn. We DO agree. You are just trying to wrap your mind around the "politically correct" terminology which, if you thought it thru, we both agree is NUTS.

How about THIS for an experiment to show you how we agree. Take two cans of oil - any brand. One is "single grade" 30, and the other is 10W-30. Now put em in your freezer overnight. Now take em out and pour em side by side thru the same sized opening. You know DURN WELL what the difference in pour-rate will be !

Now take two more cans of oil - ANY brand. One is 30, the other 10W-30. Stick em both in a big pot of boiling water. Now open em both and pour em both out from the same sized opening. At boiling point, you know DURN well the pour rate will be roughly the same.

Obviously we both know that the viscosity of the cheap single grade oil changes FAR more dramatically than the 10W-30, which will provide safe lubrication thru a MUCH wider operating temp. range.

There are tables somewhere that show the typical "multi-grade" oil has a higher safe operating temp. limit than so called "single grade" oils. Cant recall the details.

If Owen wants to call the chemical process in "detergent" oils "detergents", I certainly cant argue with him given his stated background in chemistry. If he wants to call that chemical process by which "detergent" oil has additives that reduce the "linking up" of the sludge molecules, I have to accept that.

However, the fact remains that HOT OIL can losen sludge. ANY hot oil. Single grade, multi grade, detergent, etc. And losened sludge is BIG TROUBLE.

Bottom line - sludge can be a SERIOUS problem on older engines with big fat long oil pans that dont drain well. Especially when they have been run for any length of time on poor quality (read "non-detergent") oils. Especially as they get older, with more by-products of combustion leaking down the rings.

</div></div>

Whatever. Your story and terminology change with each post. I'm out of here.

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Guest imported_Joe Kieliszek

Hello,

Non-detergent oil does not smell as bad to those folks who

are occasionally forced to drive in the cloud of smoke

following the trail of a brass era car..

(especially going up hills).

Thanks,

Joe

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  • 9 years later...

A broad brush discussion document ;o)

 

"Detergent" oil has a couple of "Magic" ingredients.

Summat as stops little bits of muck as come from burning petrol sticking together.

Summat as stops they ittle bits of muck sticking to metal.

 

Multigrade oil has summat as stops it getting too thin to lub at 100C

an' keeps it thin enough to just about lub at 40C.

 

Neither 20W40 nor 20 grade lubs that well when it's brass monkeys.

Your granddads would probably have diluted sump oil with kero in very cold weather.

They may well have added kero, and run the engine for a while before they changed oil too.

 

If you use a thinner oil, you get a better flow.

Better flow = better lubing.

 

If you have a better flow, you are more likely to wash sh . . you know what

out your oil galleries, and through your bearings :-(

 

The washed out sh . . may or may not damage your bearings.

The washed out Sh . . may or may not clog your sump filter.

 

Flow rate varies with temperature.

Without knowing the temp of your oil.

It's near on impossible to guess if 20 grade or 20W40

poses a greater level of risk when you're running..

 

If you've bought a used motor, best check the sump filter.

At a guess, stuffing one o' they little camera do-dahs

in through the sump plug 'ole

and taking a gander round

is a good startin' point.

 

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On 4/7/2009 at 3:35 AM, Tinindian said:

Gentlemen. Please explain a specific situation to me. My engine has 280,000 miles since overhaul. The bearings (babbitt) had .0015" clearance when installed 27 years ago and the one bearing I had out three years ago had .002" clearance. When I use straight 20 wt oil I have 20lbs pressure at an idle at start up and 40lbs at highway speed. After four hours (200 miles)the pressure is the same at highway speed and drops to 15lbs at an idle. The one time when I couldn't get single weight oil I used 10/30. Start up was the same but after 200 miles my pressure dropped to 30lbs at speed and 10lbs at an idle. This is still with in the accepted range according to my operators manual.

The 10/30 oil was thinner than the 20wt oil when the pressure was lower.

 

Probably due to shear forces between loose 1 pistons and cylinder walls knackering up the viscocity stabilisers in the multigrade oil.

1 Loose relative to engines the oils were designed for.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB768GB768&amp;ei=xau4W5X4BozVgAaG65jIDg&amp;q=effect+shear+forces+on+viscosity+stabilisers+in+engine+oil&amp;oq=effect+shear+forces+on+viscosity+stabilisers+in+engine+oil&amp;gs_l=psy-ab.3...20722.33795.0.34682.16.16.0.0.0.0.155.1685.8j8.16.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.952...33i10i160k1j33i10i21k1j33i10k1.0.InfeBMMgIvM

Edited by MikeMike
ommision (see edit history)
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