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1950 248.


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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear FirstBorn:

I'm concerned about your comments about your crank. You should know that under normal loads the oil films between the crank and the main and rod surfaces gets down to around .0001 (1/10,000th) of an inch. I hope you don't think that 80 times that amount of out of round or taper is OK. You're going to be bitterly disappointed with extremely short engine life and a very expensive rebuild within less than 1000 miles. At these tolerances, a piece of hair behind an insert looks like a brick to that oil film, as hair is usually about .003 in diameter.

Regards, Dave Corbin

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Bill, thanks for the reply. Is this the Bobs in CA?

Dave, I hope I didnt give you a heart attack. I did not mean to leave the impression that i thought the crank would be ok.The machine shop is hopefull they can salvage the crank. If not, I will be in the market for another.

Thanks to both of you for the help

Ben

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

Other than my eyes about fell out of my head, no problem. I have found that this area of any engine is the least understood part by most people.

Some small amount of engineer words here:

1) Barrel: journal is bigger in the middle than at the ends.

2) Hourglass: journal is smaller in the middle than at the ends.

3) Taper: smaller at one end than the other.

4) main line: centerline of crank as measurd thru the center of all mains.

5) throw: distance from main line to center of rod bearing surfaces.

6) Plane: the angle between any throw centerline, as measured from the centerline of the frst throw;

7) roundness: deviations from true round of any main or rod bearing

8) Finish: smoothness of ground surface, as measured in MILLIOTHS of an inch.

Here are the specifications for the 6.9 diesel engine in 1980 for you to compare to:

1) Barrel, hourglass and taper: may not exceed .0001 inch on a bearing.

2) Centerline: all mains must be on the centerline, as established by the center of the first and last mains to within .0003 inch.

3) Throw: within .0003 +/- for all rod throws.

4) Roundness: all within 75 MILLIONTHS, 90% must be less than 50 MILLIONTHS

5) Plane: +/- .0005 as measured at the side of all throws as related to throw #1.

6) Finish: 4 RMS (4 MILLIONTHS)(literally, a mirror)

In 1980 thru 1982, as the engine division maufacturing engineering manager of International Harvester, I spent approximately $55,000,000 on new grinders and measuring machines to get our cranks to the standards above. IF you can get the cranks to this standard, and the minimum oil film under full load goes down to 90 millionths, a moment of thought will show you that the stationary parts and the moving parts will NEVER touch, IF your oil filter can strain out everything above 10 millionths. In short, engine life goes to infinity! IF you can make the rod big ends and the main bearing bores in the block true round to .0003, you've got it made.

I think, from this explanation, you can see why I was concerned.

Regards, Dave Corbin

PS: My mother used to say that cleanliness was next to godliness. The cost of washing equpment and white rooms for the assembly of the engines was in the low millions of dollars!

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Guest simplyconnected

While these main bearing tolerances sound very important, For most applications, .00075 to .0010” (three quarters to one thousandth of an inch) of clearance per inch of shaft diameter is a reasonable starting point. All applications are slightly different, and racing engines are assembled with more slop than family car engines. I'm sure your engine builder will check using Plastigage.

If you want your engine to run real sweet, weigh your pistons, and shave off the heavy ones to make them all the same weight. Connecting rods, too. When they are together, do it again. I like to balance my crankshaft with the flywheel (or flex plate) and damper pulley attached as one unit. That's how the crank runs in real life. If you get to within 5-gram/centimeters, that should be good. Your engine builder will probably not spend the time to do a good balance, but you can do it yourself using basic materials.

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Guest simplyconnected

.008" is a lot of runout, but your crankshaft can usually be salvaged. When they regrind, it will straighten out many "sins of the past." In a lathe (or Landis Grinder) .008" turns out to be only .004" to be ground off. Even new crankshafts are worse than that. At the factory, we take a rough crank and machine the bearing surfaces, drill oil holes through main and pin journals, then grind and lap. Every crank is different in size and weight until this process is done. "Balance" is the last operation, and we do it three times on each crank. Measure & drill, measure & drill, then measure.

At home, I made a jig that holds two lengths of plate glass on edge (cut straight) inset in wood. They have to be parallel and level (you can shim the legs, but I used jack screws). Think of it as a wooden box with two long and tall sides that hold long strips of plate glass on edge. Your box needs to flex, so you can slightly lift one or two corners.

After you are sure it is parallel and level, gently set the crank/flywheel/damper on the two glass 'rails'. The imbalance will roll to the bottom every time. Then take a little off one of the throws on the heavy side. When you get real close to 'done', add a small imbalance weight to the flywheel, set it at 90* to the bottom, and time how long it takes to get to the bottom. Do it in quarters (every 90* intervals). You'll know when it's right. When you are done, that crank won't move at all, no matter where you place it on the rails.

Most flywheels will only fit one way on the crank. Just to be sure, mark your flywheel location with a center punch.

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

"Simplyconnected" makes several good points about balance and clearance which are ADDITIONAL to my comments about dimensional accuracy. As the engine turns under load in operation, the crank flexes under load. This results in "squishing" some of the oil film out on each revolution of the engine. This goes on simultaneously for all bearings and is replenished on the low pressure side of the bearing by the oil pump.

We found that the pressure in the heavily loaded side of the bearings in a diesel ran up to 50-60,000 psi, which is why the oil film squeezed down to around 90-100 millionths of an inch thick. This dynamic goes on during every revolution of the crank, with time intervals involved measured in .0001 seconds.

We got around the flexing of the crank from its own weight while it was being measured by having our measuring machine built so that the crankshaft was in a vertical position in the measuring machine.

Regards, Dave Corbin

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Guest simplyconnected

If you can buy a new oil pump, do it. They used to sell just the gears, but nobody rebuilds engines any more, so you have to buy a Millings complete pump. Remember, your oil goes through the pump BEFORE it gets to the filter. That means every little piece of metal will grind through the oil pump rotors, sometimes embedding themselves in the pump. After a while, the rotors get sloppy and your oil pressure will drop to a few pounds at idle.

If your oil pump has a drive shaft, get one of those, too.

(I'm not sure if the 1950 Buicks have one.) I never reuse my old ones because they only cost about $6.

Buy brass freeze plugs. Every marine application uses them and they are readilly available at most speed shops. For a few extra bucks, they will never rust out.

Here's a site that spells out all your engine spec's:

1950 Buick 248 In-Line 8

Hope this helps.

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear FirstBorn:

What you'll find out is that a well (and carefully) done Buick straight eight is among the very best engines around, including modern iron. Be very careful on cleanliness of parts, gaskets installed carefully with a little RTV sealant here and there and clearances maybe a hair on the loose side and that 263 wil do you for 100,000 miles.

Other places where you can go wrong are the little retainer plate on the front of the cam (It can be upside down and/or backwards) and getting the front rocker arm stand mixed up with the others (The clearance to its bolt is the oil feed passage for the rocker arms.)

Also, for your own safety, keep in mind using a BIG engine stand and heavy duty lifting equipment. If you install the clutch and transmission out of the car, you're going to be lifting something that's close to 5 feet long and above 1000 lbs in weight. The assembly for my 39 Roadmaster was 61 inches long and weighed about 1200 lbs.

Regards, Dave Corbin

PS: If you post the engine number and the frame number, I can tell you if they match and within a week, when they were made.

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Dave, you gotta deal. May be a while. The block is still in the machine shop.

I agree with you on the quality of these engines. I grew up with them. Owned two 1950s. First one I remember was my Dads 1932. Family had several through the last one in 1953. I couldnt wait for my first v8, now am anxious to drive a straight 8 again.

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Guest simplyconnected

By design, an in-line engine is always smoother than a vee, especially when you have eight cylinders.

I always cherish the time I spend building engines. Take your time and do the mundane, boring, task of fitting each piston ring in its respective cylinder. Use the piston and shove it down at least two inches past the deck, and measure the end-gap. Use a file and get it right (too tight is far worse than too much gap.

I balance my crankshaft/damper/flexplate, weigh my pistons, lap my crankshaft and valves, clearance (port) & C.C. my heads, cross-hatch my cylinders, and I measure main and rod bearing clearances with Plastigage. My machine shop cleans up warped surfaces and removes all obstructions and rust from my blocks. When finished, my engines run smooth as silk and last for many years.

All these operations take time, and lots of it. When boredom makes me tired, I stop. Working while tired only causes stupid mistakes. A professional mechanic would need to charge more than I am willing to pay and because it's not his, he cuts corners to make it go together much faster like a "production" job.

I love building my engines and I encourage you to do your own. After your first, I can almost guarantee more rebuilds will be in your future. As you go along, little tricks help, like: For engine-build lube, I mix STP and 10W-30 so it is thick enough to 'hang' onto all the parts (and it's cheap). Cylinder walls need LIGHT oil, like WD-40 or a penetrating fog. After the first 500 miles, change the oil and filter.

Break-in happens when you LOAD THE RINGS. Everyone has their own idea about how to break an engine in. I use the technique recommended by the ring manufacturers. Make a test run at 30 miles per hour and accelerate at full throttle to 50 miles per hour. Repeat the acceleration cycle from 30 to 50 miles per hour at least ten times. No further break-in is necessary. - Dave

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Simplyconnectid, I agree with you on the smoothness of the inline engine.

It has been a long time since I built an engine. In my younger years, eons ago, I did that for a living. But it was as you said, I had to do it on a schedule. Like "HURRY UP". I have overhauled my own back then, but never a complete rebuild such as this. I am excited to get to do this.

Where on the pistons, and with what, do you remove material to balance them? When you say c.c. your heads, what exactly are you refering to?

I really enjoy talking to you and Dave Corbin. Will continue to pick your brains as long as you will let me.

Thanks

Ben

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Guest simplyconnected

Ben, nobody CC's heads any more, except racers. Most builders couldn't care less and just throw everything together. Like you said, "HURRY UP!"

We know the block and pistons are all the same volume, but what about the head's combustion chambers? After your valves are done and the spark plug is in, you can fill each one with water to see if they are all the same volume, too:

Put the assembled head on a bench so the combustion chambers are facing the sky, and spread a thin layer of petroleum jelly over just the deck surface. Get a piece of plexiglas large enough to cover one combustion chamber, about 1/2" thick (so it can't flex), and drill a hole in the middle of it about 7/16" or so. At this point, before I start, I like to wet all the combustion chambers, and "dump them out" just so everything isn't bone dry. If we are doing each one a few times, I like them to start in the same condition.

All you need to do is slide the plexiglass over each combusiton chamber and measure how much water each one holds. The petroleum jelly seals the edge, so no water escapes (wipe the plexiglass between readings). I usually borrow a Graduated Pipette and stand, but you can use whatever. The Graduated Pipette holds at least 70 Cubic Centimeters (C.C.'s) and it has a built-in petcock on the bottom.

Simply cover the combustion chamber with the plexiglas, fill the pipette with an exact amount of water (say, 70CC), and start releasing the water into the hole in the plexiglas. When the chamber won't hold any more, stop the flow, write down the amount left in the pipette, and subtract it from the number you started with (70CC).

Do that for each combustion chamber. They will be different volumes. Your paper should have 1 thru 8 (cyl's) along the top, and your measurements underneath each one. When you get all your numbers done, look at them. Usually, you can tell if the head was milled on an angle, with one end having a large volume and each chamber gradually getting smaller until you get to the smallest volume at the other end.

Make all the combustion chambers match the one with the greatest volume by using a small hand-grinder (dremel tool), and grind a little off each of the smaller chambers. This is an opportunity to smooth each bowl just a little bit, and to make your numbers match.

When you are done, each cylinder and combustion chamber should be exactly the same, your compression readings should be exactly the same, and your compression ratios will be exactly the same.

The numbers you get off of each cylinder are related to each other. This is important. When you take compression tests, I don't care what the numbers are, what is most important is the SPREAD. When they are the same, and everything is balanced, your engine will run sweet and smooth.

For removing piston material, I usually take off equal amounts (or so) from INSIDE each of the skirts with a carbide burr (rotary file) in a dremmel grinder or a hand file (half-round).

I can already tell, you are on your way to a sweet, precise, engine (set apart from 99% of all other engines).

Dave Dare

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Simplyconnected, thanks again. looks like you have done this a time or two. Were you building competition engines or street engines?

We may not know the results of my efforts and your advise for awhile as my shop is not heated. I will keep all of you updated as I go.

Thanks again

Ben Bruce

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Guest simplyconnected

Ben, print these posts and keep them in a notebook for when you can work on your engine. If you don't, it will be lost.

I spent many years in two engine plants, Ford's Dearborn Engine then Romeo Engine plant. Dearborn made all the Escort & Focus engines, while Romeo made all the V-8 engines for Lincoln, Marquis, Mustang, Crown Vic's, etc. One was a "conventional" engine plant while Romeo is a "new technology" plant. Let me say, since the beginning of engines, there ain't much difference. We still use the same castings, pistons, cranks, cams, etc. What has changed is the details; the way we machine, crack con-rod caps, and the electronics we use to control engine functions.

When the Jeep 4.0L engine used a carburetor, it was a gas guzzling DOG!!! The moment Jeep went to EFI, it woke up, gave more horsepower, more fuel efficiency, and above all, more torque. Same bore, same stroke. Point is, the potential is there, all you have to do is find it.

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

I second what "simplyconnected" says about record-keeping, etc..

I'm going to note one historical point,however, just to dig him slightly. He corectly notes that Ford's Romeo engine plant is the "new style" plant, and he can be justly proud of working there and what Romeo has contributed to Ford's success.

What he didn't tell you (and may not know) is that the Ford Board of Directors ORDERED the Ford engine division executives to study the Navistar Indianapolis engine plant, where the 6.9 diesel engine (see tolerances above) was built, for one year BEFORE the Board would approve the funding for Romeo!!

I worked with the Ford people on that one.

Regards, Dave Corbin

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Guest simplyconnected

I'm fully aware of Ford's long history with Navistar's Indianapolis and Melrose Park plants. Melrose Park Plant used to be a Buick plant during WWII. Two of my uncles assembled Pratt & Whitney airplane engines there during The War. My sister, Margaret Bain, a Mechanical Engineer of nearly 30 yrs, is a manager at that plant, today. I lived in Melrose Park up until 1956.

From Dearborn, I went on assignment to start-up Romeo Engine. After the plant was well under way, I returned to the Rouge Area where I was assigned to the Dearborn Assembly Plant (when we transitioned from 5.0L Cleveland Engines to Romeo Engines), in the production of SN94 Mustangs, GT's, Cobra's and Cobra-R's (w/351 Windsor engines).

I cherish my engine plant days, stamping plant days, assembly plant days, and foundry days. In Dearborn, we are well-rounded and are exposed to many facets of automotive manufacturing development.

We don't make diesel engines because the volume is too low, so we contract to buy quality engines. There is a vast difference between diesel and gasoline engines. It is no secret, Ford's relationship with Navistar has been rocky at best, with many law suits over recent years caused by quality/price issues, broken promises, and Navistar's inability to correct major problems in a timely manner (like crankshaft bores being off center in their blocks, etc.). Ford should have made all of their own engines from the beginning and they only have themselves to blame for not doing so. Ford has little control over purchased parts, but FORD must assume the ultimate responsibility to cover each truck with a manufacturer's warranty. It's the same outsourcing issue that plagues many companies.

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

Reading simplyconnected's post, it looks like you've managed the interesting feat of having 2 professional engine guys as advisors!!!

I would think one or the other of us should be able to answer virtually any of your engine questions. It should be a really good 248 when you're done!!

Regards, Dave Corbin

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Guest simplyconnected

I don't consider myself tied to one or two facets of automotive processes. Engine is certainly up there, but so is Heat Treat & Powdered Metals, Electroplating, all the departments of assembly: Body Shop; welding and material handling robotics, MIG TIG Spot, and Stick welding, Paint; electrocoat, waterborne primers and base/clearcoat spray, and drying oven (temp and humidity controlled environments), Final, Trim, & Chassis; Broadcast, variable speed conveyor and automatic stack-and-retrieval systems (ASRS), glass decking, engine stuffing, body decking, liquids evac & filling and tank farms, tire room, seat cushion room, scuffers, and drive-away garage operations. I worked in two Foundries and in Monroe Stamping (where we stamped and chrome plated bumpers, and assembled catalytic converters using Corning substrates). In Dearborn Stamping, I ran six transomat (progressive die) presses, as well as fender draw-die presses. Much of my apprenticeship was served in Dearborn Frame Plant, then I graduated in the Blast Furnace (Steel Div.)

All of these experiences I will never forget. That’s how I am able to restore a car. At the present, my project is a 1955 Ford Customline Fordor. I upgraded the front sway bar from ½” to 1-1/8” and added a rear sway bar that never existed. I’ve already retrofit 11” front disk brakes and added a MBM dual diaphragm booster, electric wipers, and integral A/C. Did I mention sewing? Yep, I’m sewing my headliner as well as front and rear bench seats, door and kick panels, this winter. This car came 6-volts POSITIVE ground. It is now 12-volt neg gnd. I’m converting the original Motorola 5MF-8 radio right now. I’m taking the 6-volt tube heaters and series-ing two tubes in four pairs, and changing the power transformer and vibrator to 12-volt. It’s good to see the 53-yr old superhetrodyne working again.

Dave Dare (simplyconnected on eBay)

(248) 544-8834

Royal Oak, MI

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Guest simplyconnected

I am honored to help a fellow restorer any way I can. God knows, we can't have too many friends in this, "labor of love." I completely understand your position in having to wait for weather. Take your time, and do a good job.

How long? Good question, Ben. I don't know. At least, I never questioned it before; I just assumed they stay posted forever (but that would be impossible).

I would also like to mention, most machine shops don't have equipment large enough to do long engines like yours. You must have hit on a good machine shop. Let's face it, when was the last straight eight manufactured on a production basis? Most machines will only accommodate straight sixes. I use an engine builder here, that bought old Detroit machines from liquidated factories. Here is an example of his work: dusenburg.jpg

It's a Dusenburg.

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

I see Dave Dare's post and his comments above. You probably have stumbled into having 2 wide ranging advisors. Like Dave, I served an apprenticeship, but at the world's largest machine tool builder, The Cinncinati Millimg Machine Co.

I worked for 29 years at International Harvester Company, starting at Fort Wayne Heavy truck plant as a trainee, foreman, general foreman (Scout Body & Paint Department), assembly line superintendent, plant engineer. Went to East Moline plant (Self-propelled combines) as shop scheduling manager nnd facilities engineer. Built a automated hi rise warehouse there, moved to Farmall (tractors) as Facility engineering manager and on the corporate staff as Plant Layout and Design Manager of the company, to engine division as Manufacturing Engineering Manager and up to Corprate Manufacturing Engineering Manager.

I had the opportunity to take early retirement, and was self-employed for 10 years as a "Doctor of Sick Factories". I've done PCB cleanups, Asbestoes removal jobs, and factory rebuilds and re-arrangements of Stamping plants and welding shops. Clients were mostly tier one suppliers of GM. I also taught SPC and did ISO9000 instruction.

Dave Dare is probably a little more "Hands-on" than I, but like him, I do as much of my own work as possible.

I've also made a hobby of studying Buick frame and engine numbers. To do that, I've collected Buick parts books going back to 1905, and I answer questions from all over the world on that.

As a kid, I built about 30 houses for my Dad as his on-site superintendent in the 1955-58 time frame.

I was on the National Science Foundation's Board of Governors as the Purdue representative from the Factory of the Future in 1985-1986.

I'm also a Mechanical Engineering graduate of MIT, BSME 1962.

Given Dave Dare's background in his post above, I would think that one or the other of us could probably answer virtually any question you might have about the restoration of your Buick.

Regards, Dave Corbin (The other Dave)

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

I forgot to mention that I've been a BCA member for 39 years, was Director at Chicagoland Chapter (where I was the moderator for a 16 month course in Buick judging) and am currently the South Central Regional Director of the BCA. I'm also the BCA tech advisor for the 1938 self-shfters.

I'm a 12 year member of The Society of Automotive Historians. and my interest is listed as "late 30's large series Buicks" in the SAH Roster.

Current restoration projects are a 1963 Buick Wildcat 425 4-speed convertible (Only made 1!), a 1956 Studebaker Golden Hawk, and a 1948 Buick Roadmaster sedan built on the first day of production.

I currently own a 1939 Buick Roadmaster sedan, a 1938 Buick 2 door sedan self-shifter (one of about 15 surviving self shifters and the only 2 door sedan), and an unrestored 1966 Olds Toronado, which I bought new and kept.

Daily drivers are Momma's 2002 Park Avenue and a 1989 Ford dually crew cab pickup with a 7.3 diesel (I'm driving my own work here, as I was the engine division tooling manager for the 6.9 diesel.) It only has 352,000 miles on it and was Ford's 1989 National RV Show truck.

Regards, Dave Corbin

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Boy, you two Daves are something else. We Buick fans can be proud to have you associated with us. I am.

I learn something

daily, it seems. Self shifter?? Tell me more!

We had a 1938 Special in 1949. This replaced the 1932, and was followed bt a 1939.

You both have collections any old car fan would give his eye tooth to see. I am envious.

Ben

Edited by Ben Bruce aka First Born (see edit history)
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Dave C, I have been meaning to ask if you can tell me what color the wheel were on my 1950. They are pretty yuckky. The "pin stripping" is still visible. vin 60283754. Car is ,or was, black. Too darned cold to walk out to the car this morning to get info from the model plate.

Ben

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

The number you've posted as the VIN appears to be an engine number, which will decode as 6,028,375 4. The following 4 indicates that your car is a Special (40 series). The front part of the number (6,028,375) is an engine built in July 1950.

It was typical practice in many states to use the engine number as the VIN number prior to about 1955. This is the most common cause of title problems for Buicks because, as a quick thought will tell you, what happens when you restore many cars?

Takes a different engine for the restoration, and now the car doesn't match the title!!! OOPS!!!! This is an area you want to watch on your car. I get about 2 panic e-mails a month just because of this.

Other numbers are the frame number, whch will confirm the "when" part and tell us "where". The numbers off of the body data plate tell us what color body and wheels and what color interior were originally installed and will also confirm the "Where".

As to your question about "What's a self-shifter?" you could read my article in The Bugle about last March. Summed up, it's a Hydramatic with a clutch. Buick built 3,883 In the Specials for 1938. After 8 years of chasing I've found 8. I suspect that the total survivors number 13-15 cars. My car is the only 2-door Model 48 so far.

Regards, Dave Corbin

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

The numbers you give decode as follows: 6 is the plant code for Atlanta and 5,821,956 is a car probably built the first week of September 1950. This matches the late July engine, because of the shipping time from Flint to Atlanta for the engine.

Paint code 01 is for Carlsbad Black, normally with black wheels but Dante red wheels were optional. Trim code 43 is for Grey Striped Cloth.

Regards, Dave Corbin

PS: The 1948 was produced on day 1 for 1948's and has a body number of 23!

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Okay guys, I am preparing to assemble my engine, and I have a question. Is there a written step by step procedure for this? I:E Step one, do this. Step two, do this , etc. I am confident I can do this, but was just wondering. I will be alright[i think] with how to do each step, just wanting to do each one in correct sequence with as few missteps as possible. It has been about forty five years since undertaking such a project.

Thanks for any help

Ben

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Guest DaveCorbin

Dear Ben:

Step 1) Be sure you've cleaned the dickens out of everything, especially the water jackets around cylinder 7 and 8. This takes a couple of dirty, frustrating hours of old fashioned picking around with sharp long tools.

Step 2) Be sure the long oil gallery hole that feeds the main bearings is absolutely clean. Very careful use of solvents is required.

Step 3) See step 2 but for the inside of the rocker arm shaft.

Things commonly assembled wrong, backwards or upside down: front mounting plate, cam retainer plate, rocker arm shaft,and front rocker arm stand.

Be careful about torqueing stuff right and make several rounds, especially on the head bolts and manifold bolts.

Regards, Dave Cobin

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Thanks, Dave

Already found out about the water jacket around #8!! I dont know why the machine shop missed it,. Looks like a simple job if done when taken out of "boil tank" to use a small tubing washer of some kind to clean this area.

Do you know if new head bolts are available? A couple of mine look as if the threads are stretched.

Thanks again.

Ben

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