Current Value of my Franklin

[Dunton]

Does anyone have any on-line resources I could use to determine the current value of my Franklin? It is a 1927 Sedan, #116865.

[Clincher]

The condition of the car is the most important factor in determining value. If you can post a photograph and description here, perhaps someone can opine a suggestion as to the worth of your Series 11-B Walker bodied Sport Sedan.

[Earl B.]

http://www.manheimgold.com/car_lo.html

[Dunton]

Does anyone have any on-line resources I could use to determine the current value of my Franklin? It is a 1927 Sedan, #116865. A picture is attached.

[Guest Strange]

Hello Dunton,

As Packard32 pointed out the Manheim Gold book has all of these vehicles listed:

1927 FRANKLIN Series 11B (114 extant)

Dsp/HP Eng Fair Good Exc Show

SEDAN 200/32 6C 11,000 16,000 23,000 29,000

Your picture is of a sport sedan, but I for one haven't seen those getting any higher values than the regular sedan.

[Guest Strange]

Hey Dave,

You're even more pessimistic than I am. I don't know which cars you've been watching, but my experience on ebay has been that most of the good collector cars that are fairly priced are still selling. The ones I really don't see moving are ones priced at almost twice what either Manheim or the Nada guide place them at and there certainly seems to be a lot of them on ebay. So the guide still gives a good place to start in my mind, but I certainly agree that the real value is whatever the market is willing to bear.

I did ask the question in another thread if collector car prices were likely to fall during a recession, but no one gave any even anecdotal evidence. I just read this morning that fine art was considered to be down 4.5% in value for 2008. I'll be very interested in the auctions this year to see if collector cars are showing a similar trend. I would think they would, but I've only been following the markets for a few years now, so many here have much more experience than I.

Now if only I had a garage, maybe that 37 Packard limo/7 passenger sedan will come into my price range. I'd take a 1934 7 passenger Franklin twelve, if I could find one I could afford.

[Steve Braverman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take a 1934 7 passenger Franklin twelve, if I could find one I could afford. </div></div>

The Franklin V12 is highly overrated.

[mikewest]

I dont see the "soft market" in antique cars either. In fact with money in the bank returning so little,In "MY OPINION", cars are a great investment. This whole bad economy thing will blow out of town like the $4.00 a gal gas. The cars on Ebay that arent selling are overprice and not properly marketed. Most sellers on the internet think they can ask anything they like.

[odyssey]

Steve - Ouch. I'd like to try to change your mind.

Come on down to the AACA Annual meeting in Feb, I am giving a seminar (powerpoint like I did at the Trek this year) on the restoration of the Marshall V/12.

Body metalwork technique on the V/12 was certainly below period standard, as the bodies were assembled by in-house employees, an attempt to control costs. Panel fit was inconsistent but final finish was very high inside and out. And the engineering/performance was phenomenal. Few engines matched the power/displacement ratio. I am not sure any matched engine power/weight ratio. How many 6,000 lb 90+ mph luxury cars were available for under $4,000 in 1932-34?

I think the V/12's get a bad rap mostly because they are not prevalent and so few have experience with them. Survival rate is very high - over 10%, a figure not realized on cars that were not 'good'. Even so, there are precious few in private hands and fewer yet being used with any regularity. While it is easy to point out faults and defects in the final product, I think those have owned and operated them would consider them to be vastly underrated.

I'm sorry I did not get a chance to give you a ride at the Trek in the Marshall car. I think you would have been impressed.

Best to you and your family for the New Year -

tom

[Steve Braverman]

Sorry Tom,

I was only referring to my experiences from a driver's perspective. I agree that the quality and engineering were typically Franklin, in other words, superb.

I drove a seven passenger V12 at the Trek two years ago and was very underwhelmed. Maybe it was that particular car. While it did get up and run down the highway nicely (in a straight line), around town it felt very sluggish, cumbersome and heavy. My very tired '32 Airman seemed to accelerate better.

I always remember Bill Miller's comments on his V12 that he owned in the 50s. He didn't have anything nice to say about the car, and Bill could be somewhat "colorful."

Maybe dad and I will make it to Philly this year. I missed your presentation at the Trek. It's hard for me to make the tech sessions at the Trek while running after the family.

[scott12180]

The market for old cars has been dominated by dealers for some time now. A lot of people are trying to make a fast buck selling cars that had been escalating in price rapidly. Just like the Real Estate market. Consequently, many dealers are now tying to convince people that old cars are a "great investment" and are the only good place to put your money. Of course, cars have been good investments for them if they were selling a car for twice what they paid for it. But if you buy one of their cars today at twice current market values or more, you could loose alot of money if you can't keep it for a long time.

And what of the long term prospects of collector cars of the Franklin vintage? I don't know. Their practicality on today's roads is becoming more and more limited. Their desirability for rich guys to build private little museums isn't great if the number of rich guys wanting museums declines due to the economy. If it were me, I think I'd rather consider my own financial security before I blow my wad on a bunch of old cars I can't really drive much anyway. Necessities first. Luxuries later.

As to the economy, we are in very serious trouble. I've heard that this quarter we will move from a Recession into a Depression (five consecutive quarters of Recession). Whatever the definitions, there's no light at the end of the tunnel and things are black for as far as anyone can see. Remember it took anywhere from twelve to sixteen years to get out of Great Depression 1.0, and 25 years before the stock market recovered to its 1929 high. How long to recover from Great Depression 2.0? No one knows.

If we encounter INflation because the government starts printing more money, then cars bought today may be good investments. If we encounter DEflation because unemploymet skyrockets and no one is spending money, anything bought today will be a great loosing proposition.

Bottom line: I hope Mike is right --- this will all blow over fast, but I doubt it. This is a global thing that's been building for many years due to an orgy of deregulation and greed. Any car bought today should be bought at no more than a very reasonable market value unless you have plenty of cash lying around getting moldy, or don't plan to live long, or aren't at all concerned about the "investment" factor of the car and just want to enjoy it. Which, after all, is the way it should be.

--Scott

[Guest Strange]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd take a 1934 7 passenger Franklin twelve, if I could find one I could afford. </div></div>

The Franklin V12 is highly overrated. </div></div>

Well, if I had the money to afford one, I'd give it the opportunity to underwhelm me. I'd be happy with an 8 instead. Really anything that could get up to 65 without overly stressing the engine would be manageable. So from what little I've gathered anything after 1930. Though I'd be interested in anyone's experience with the 1929 models since they did get a good increase in horsepower as well.

So, any input on why Franklin's never managed to see the appreciation in value that packards seem to attract?

[Steve Braverman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd be happy with an 8 instead.

So, any input on why Franklin's never managed to see the appreciation in value that packards seem to attract? </div></div>

An 8 would be interesting indeed, but Franklin never produced one. The Franklin six from 31-34 makes 100hp, which puts it in the same league as some smaller eights.

I think Franklins never saw the appreciation in value like Packards because their unique engineering appeals to a unique type of person. They're not for everyone.

[Guest Strange]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

An 8 would be interesting indeed, but Franklin never produced one. The Franklin six from 31-34 makes 100hp, which puts it in the same league as some smaller eights.

I think Franklins never saw the appreciation in value like Packards because their unique engineering appeals to a unique type of person. They're not for everyone. </div></div>

Thank you for the correction. It certainly explains why I've never seen an 8. It seemed like a natural progression though, so I presumed they had one in the early thirties.

Well, maybe one day I'll manage to find a 6C from the early thirties in my price range. The uniqueness seems appealing, but what appears to be a scarcity of parts makes me more hesitant than with packards of the era.

Do you know anyone that uses a 31-34 Franklin as a driver or tour car?

[Chuck Richardson]

There were nearly 100 Franklin's of all vintages (1903-1934) at this year's Trek in Cazenovia. Most of the cars toured for the entire week (a 1910 Model G did over 400 miles). Some of the cars were driven to the Trek from their homes. Last year a 1930 Pursuit Phaeton was driven from Seattle and back. The cars make fine drivers. And, if you're not in a hurry, the mid-series cars, (9, 10, 11) are comfortable and easy to drive.

As for parts, they are not particularly difficult to find, especially with the resources of the club available. Parts for my Maxwells are far scarcer in my experience.

[Steve Braverman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you know anyone that uses a 31-34 Franklin as a driver or tour car? </div></div>

I drive my '32 sedan a LOT. This summer I did a 1200 mile run over a two-week period with my wife and small daughter. We had a great time. The car performs great.

See my earlier post

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/529748/Re_No_More_Westleys#Post529748

I would think that the parts for Franklins are no harder to find than Packard parts. Our club is a very nice bunch, and parts are never a problem. When I had a '33 Chrysler, I had a much harder time finding parts.

[Guest Strange]

Steve,

Thank you for sharing your experiences and pictures. What a stunner! Is that real wood around the window interiors? I definitely plan on driving my car when I finally manage to get one. Out of curiousity do you track your gas mileage in the franklin? Maybe you're convincing me that a Franklin may be doable. Now if only the city will hurry up with that garage permit approval I can get a little closer to actually achieving that dream. Since many of my past cars mechanical issues have stemmed from the radiator and cooling system the air-cooled Franklin has always attracted me.

Cheers,

Christopher

[Steve Braverman]

Christopher,

I'm afraid we've hijacked Dunton's original post, but that's how it goes.

Yes, it's real wood around the windows. In 1931 it was woodgrained steel. I don't know why.

I get about 10-12 mpg in my Franklin. Cooling system problems are non-existent with a Franklin. I've driven through the mountains in 95 degree heat and the only thing that overheated was me.

Check out the Franklin Club web site at www.franklincar.org and look at the for sale ads. There are a few good ones on there.

[Guest Strange]

Steve,

Thanks. Yes, we have hijacked dunton's original post, but we aren't that far off topic I think. I do watch the franklin car club site on a regular basis. I've been watching an ad for a 1931 franklin for awhile now. It seems a shame to me that in 31 they did steel, but from what I could tell of the 31 I've been looking at that was either the case or the person that restored the car decided to go with metal since many sections of the interior molding were just painted with the exterior color. I've also been watching beverly hills motor cars ad:

http://en.bhmotorcars.com/inventory.php?make=58

I'm wondering if they got the model number wrong or the year, because a series 130 as I understand should be a 1929.

It's a bit disappointing on the gas mileage. Considering that a packard 12 got 9 miles to the gallon from what owners have posted in the packard forum I would have expected better from a 6. I like to know what to expect, though, since that way if the mileage is much worse it's a good indication something isn't right with the car.

Cheers,

Christopher

[Steve Braverman]

The car in the ad is clearly a 1929 model 130. Besides all the visual cues, the serial number tells us that. It looks like a nice car for the money.

As for economy, a jump from 9mpg to 12mpg is a 30% improvement. That adds up. You might do better, I drive with a heavy foot. A 130 should do better than my '32. It's lighter (but not by much)and it has a 46 hp engine compared to the later car's 100 hp.

There were many differences between 1931 and 1932. The interior door handles on the '31 were on the sill, where the '32 was on the door panel. Franklin had no money for new tooling, so it was probably cheaper to make the trim out of wood. Production was a fraction of what it was a few years earlier.

[RansomEli]

Christopher:

I have seen the car you mentioned. It is indeed a 1929. The car does not look as nice in person as the picture indicates -- it is a solid #3. I have been looking for a 1929-1931 Franklin 'driver' and decided to pass on this one.

Franklins are really good cars. I have worked on several '29s and currently own a '21 touring. They are well engineered and drive smooth. My advice: buy a Franklin from someone in the Franklin club. You will get a car with a history and know what's right and wrong with it. You will also meet some of the nicest people in the hobby.

[scott12180]

>>" My advice: buy a Franklin from someone in the Franklin club. You will get a car with a history and know what's right and wrong with it."

AMEN to that! One of the most discouraging aspects of the hobby these days is that it has been taken over almost completely by dealers. Dealers generally have no knowledge of the car, no nothing about its history, typically misrepresent the cars, and only want to make a quick buck. Once you go down the road, their interest in you is gone. Buy from a club member and get an honest accurate description and make a friend in the process.

If everyone would just say NO to the dealers, we could begin to return this to being a real hobby in the hands of hobbyists, not investors and speculators.

[Guest Strange]

Thanks for the advice gentlemen.

Thank you Ransom for a report on the '29 at Beverly Hills Motors. I'm definitly looking for something 1931 or later since I believe it would be more driveable, which is really key. Like Steve seems to do, I plan to use the car on a regular basis. I'll keep watching the franklin club site. Ransom, have you checked out the '30 salon special on the franklin club site? That one seemed like it needed a lot of work though.

As to dealers, I'm not as adverse if I think the dealer is charging a fair price for the condition, but I definitely hear you on how speculation and dealers have driven up prices over the past few years. Also on how they do not generally know anything about the cars they are selling.

Steve, looking at pictures of a '31 I see what you mean about the door handles. This may seem like an odd question, but do the doors actually lock on any of these? Did the franklins generally come with heaters for the passengers? My wife may sacrifice AC, but she won't do without heat.

Cheers,

Christopher

[Steve Braverman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Strange</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve, looking at pictures of a '31 I see what you mean about the door handles. This may seem like an odd question, but do the doors actually lock on any of these? Did the franklins generally come with heaters for the passengers? My wife may sacrifice AC, but she won't do without heat. </div></div>

Yes, they lock, but there is only a key lock on the passenger's front door as was the common practice of the day. My sedan and my father's 1923 sedan both have manifold heaters that will keep the car very comfortable.

[Guest Strange]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steve Braverman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Yes, they lock, but there is only a key lock on the passenger's front door as was the common practice of the day. My sedan and my father's 1923 sedan both have manifold heaters that will keep the car very comfortable. </div></div>

Thanks again Steve. I've never seen a 30's franklin in person, and I couldn't find anything in the photos that looked like a key lock, but I was only looking at the driver's side. Maybe I'll make ti to Hershey this year and if I'm lucky soneone will have one that I can at least look at.

Cheers,

Christopher

[Steve Braverman]

Where are you located? If you can make it to the Franklin Trek, you'll be able to see most every year of Franklin, and probably drive a few.