How can you Judge it?

[Guest ChaplainLar]

This is my 1st year having a car in competition. I am wondering how judges can determine if it's original or not. I have looked high & low and can find only some artist like drawings of what my car was like new. I guess I am frustrated because at one event (Northern Ohio A.A.C.A.) the two judges walked around my car twice, glanced in and went to the next car. They were at my car for a total of 75 seconds. I know, I checked.

I was scored down on stuff they never checked.

Anyway, back to the question, would it make any difference if I installed New reproduction parts from like Mike's Ford, or The Filling Station Chevy stuff-since no one reproduces Essex parts.

Shouldn't the Judges take into account the actual "original" car? I know that some shows have that class, but do they hold to it?

I know the my car will never be a 1000 pointer, so should I never bother showing it?

[MCHinson]

If it is a "well worn" original you might consider registering it in the HPOF Class.

If it is a partially restored "Driver", you could register it in DPC.

Without seeing the car, it is difficult to offer the best guidance to you.

If it was a local show, instead of a national event, there is no telling what "judging" method was used.

[ex98thdrill]

If you're coming to Hershey next week, plan on taking the time to visit the AACA Library & Research Center. They have a lot of stuff on a lot of cars where at least you can have the documentation to prove what's right or wrong.

I would hope that with an Essex the judge's understand the availability of parts and take that into consideration while judging. My father and I restored a '29 Whippet, a Plymouth pickup and a Plymouth woodie wagon, so I am fully familiar with being in a position where you either have to salvage what's there, or go without. We've been there and can easily feel your pain.

[Shop Rat]

And a less than perfect correct part is better than no part at all.

[novaman]

As for having your car judged at an AACA Region show compared to an AACA National meet can be the difference of night and day.

At a national meet your car is scored against a score sheet of four 100 point categories. Interior, exterior, engine, and chassis for a total of 400 max points. As judges find problems in their area of the car, they will make a mental deduction then after they are done will make the appropriate deductions on the score sheet. The team captain compiles the other judge’s scores on your car's score sheet, and then the team moves on. They should only be spending about 5 min per car.

At an AACA Regional meet, it is judges how the region decides. They can follow the National standards, to looking the cars over in the class and deciding who they feel should get a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. To (and I serious hope they wouldn't do it this way) giving all pink cars 1st, blue cars 2nd, and yellow ones 3rd. The point I'm trying to make is it is entirely up to the region how they do the judging even if they are an AACA region.

If you car is still mostly original, I'd attempt to try the HPOF class and if you don't get the certification there, next time out do DPC, if you feel you won't fair well in the judged class. My mom and I each have a National HPOF car while my dad enters his (too much restoration work been done for HPOF) in the DPC Class at the local region meets here. With the HPOF class, you are allowed some restoration work but mainly what needs to be done to preserve the car. Example, I replaced my driver's side door gasket and trunk gaskets because they were shot and allowing water to enter the car. I probably could get away with replacing the passenger front door gasket too, but I am trying to keep it as original as I possibly can so, I'm just hanging onto that door gasket until I absolutely need to replace it.

I would suggest going to an AACA judging school on the Friday of a meet (there will be several schools at Hershey). You'll learn from the class, get a free judging manual (can be downloaded from the AACA Web site under publications) and there is a continuing Judge's Education (CJE) class on HPOF you could take. Just because you go to the school does not mean you have to judge but you are welcome to join us if you like. It's up to you.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because you go to the school does not mean you have to judge but you are welcome to join us if you like. It's up to you.</div></div>

But if you do go to any judging schools or CJEs make sure you fill out and turn in the attendance card that they give you. You can get one credit per year for a judging school and one credit per year for a CJE, with the exception of the mandatory CJE at each 25 point increment. You can "audit", as they say in college, as many as you want in a year but you only get credit for one of each in a year. That way if you decide to join in on this side of the hobby you will have those credits already. No sense not getting credit for them.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But if you do go to any judging schools or CJEs make sure you fill out and turn in the attendance card that they give you. You can get one credit per year for a judging school and one credit per year for a CJE, with the exception of the mandatory CJE at each 25 point increment.</div></div>Don't forget you have a mandatory CJE when you hit your first 10 credits, and then at each 25 credits after that (so it would be 10,25,50,75, etc.).

[novaman]

I did the voulentary one plus the mandatory one for 75 this year. Next mandatory will be the etc. level. Is the etc. level like the Sam High level??

[ex98thdrill]

Yes it is. I'd like to have the money that Sam has spent to make it to all those meets to get those credits.

I think Sam has judged at every meet for over 20 years.

[Guest ChaplainLar]

So, If I want to enter my car as 'Factory Original'

I should:

*Have Macco re-paint it

*Have all the instruments re-done at Bob' Speedo

*Have a local shop re-fabric the interior (to 1928 specs)

*Renu my gas tank

*Buy new old Coker tires

*Replace my original steering wheel with one that

looks more original

*Rewire the entire car with wires that look like 1928

*Re-build the engine, paint it, put in electric

gas pump(where no one can see it), buy bolts, nuts,

gaskets, that look like original ones

*and all the other stuff...

You are giving trophys to the guy with the most money.

ANY auto repair shop can re-create given enough money.

I think that you have got the classes mixed up. The HPOF and the DPC should be the Trophy classes and the ground up restorations should be the "Oh, isn't that nice" class.

I'm outta here.

[Shop Rat]

ChalainLar, novaman and ex98thdrill are NOT talking about scores on cars or which ones got trophies.

They are talking about Sam High as a person that has more judging credits, which includes also the times he has attended judging schools and CJE's, than any other AACA member.

Make sure you know what you are disrespecting before you do it.

[Guest ChaplainLar]

Shoprat,

I was disrespecting the entire AACA not what novaman or

ex98thdrill were engaged in.

How can this be an "Antique" car club when nothing

about the cars winning trophies are Antique?

(except maybe the basic body style)

I guess my eyes were opened to this, for lack of a better word, sham.

I guess I'll change my signature line to read:

HE WHO HAS THE MOST MONEY WINS!

[MCHinson]

ChaplainLar,

It sounds like what you have is probably an HPOF car. I understand the concept, but have not participated in National Meets with an HPOF car. (My future HPOF car needs to be 3 years older before it is eligible.) I have a restored 1929 Model A Ford Phaeton that is a Senior Grand National Winner. I have driven that car on local tours as well as a National Tour. The good thing about a Model A is that it can be maintained easily. I work as a Police Lieutenant. I am not rich. I luckily found the car as a older restoration that needed to be freshened up and was able to purchase it for much less than its current appraised value. I bought my future HPOF car because I needed a more modern car for additional touring. I found a good original 1976 Ford Country Squire wagon. I have done the maintenance that it needed and I can drive it in conditions that I would not want to take the Model A to. I recently drove it over an hour at interstate speeds in the rain to a show. That would not be something that I could or would want to do with the Model A.

AACA is not just about trailer queens. HPOF is designed to enable a car that has just been maintained (or maybe not maintained much) to be displayed for the enjoyment of everybody. This is perhaps the best example of preserving the history of old cars that you will find. Here is a description of the Class from the Judging Guidelines.

HISTORICAL PRESERVATION OF

ORIGINAL FEATURES (HPOF) CLASS

Since its’ founding, AACA has been dedicated

to the preservation, restoration and

maintenance of vehicles. In the furtherance

of the “preservation” mission, the AACA

Board of Directors in 1987 established a

program to encourage the saving and display of collector vehicles in their original,

as-manufactured condition. The Historical

Preservation of Original Features program

encourages owners of vehicles 35 years

old and older, retaining significant original

features to allow them to remain in this

original condition, and to show them at

National Meets. A vehicle may be entirely

“original” or it may have certain “original”

features such as paint, chassis, upholstery,

engine compartment, etc., that are essentially

as delivered. These vehicles will not

be point judged. They will be certified using

a percentage system which includes a total

average percentage of the original features

of the exterior, interior, chassis and

engine. The vehicle must receive a score of

sixty-five percent (65%) or above to receive

certification. They will be recognized at the

awards ceremony and will receive an exhibition

award (and a mounting board at first

certification). A certification badge will be

presented to each vehicle upon acceptance

into the HPOF category. The badge should

be mounted at some visable location on

the front of the vehicle. Ve hicles entering

the HPOF category will be prohibited from

fu ture registration in any other competition

or exhibition class. If the vehicle is

restored, certifica tion in HPOF category

will be voided. No previous National First

Prize winners are accepted. An HPOF certified

vehicle that is significantly restored

will lose its’ HPOF certification. HPOF

certification remains with the vehicle even

if there is a change of ownership. (See

Attachment 5 HPOF Judging Form p. 48)

HPOF is a great class. I would suggest that you register your car in HPOF, Come out to a show, and have a great time showing your car to a lot of folks who would be grateful to see it.

[novaman]

ChaplainLar, this is only intended as food for thought.

You referenced an event (Northern Ohio A.A.C.A.) which was as you pointed out an AACA Region event. I tried to be helpful and explain how the judging is handled at a national meet (in hopes you might attend) compared to the fact it is totally up to the individual region on how they judge at their show.

As for your comment "he who has the most money wins" isn't always the case. Ex98thdrill has spent hours along with his father restoring several vehicles over the years that are AACA Grand national winners just like those vehicles that the owners don't have a scratch on their hands unless it was from a paper cut when the pulled the check out of the checkbook. My dad and I are another father and son team sharing this hobby. I look at things a little different than ex98th, in my case I'm restoring two cars (slowly due to $$ and time) but when I'm done, they are going in the Diver's Participation Class (DPC) because I don't want the headaches of dealing with the judged classes. Plus, I'll get a brass chip to mount on a board each time I go out anyways which is what you'll end up getting once you reach the sr. level at a national anyways. It'll just say Preservation instead of HPOF on it.

As for the "How can this be an "Antique" car club when nothing

About the cars winning trophies are Antique?" Which would you rather have, antique cars that have been restored and out for the public to view and learn about the history of the automobile, or in a completely original state and there be only say fifteen cars at the meet because they are the only one that are still drivable? We, John Q. Public restore antique furniture, antique clocks, antique watches, etc. why not cars? How many people do you think would stop to check out the cars at the local Sonic (drive-in restaurant) if the parking lot looked like a rolling junkyard.

If you go to a national Camero, Nova, Thunderbird, model T, Model A, Edsel, Corvette meet things will be slightly different there. BUT, in the classes that are for non-modified cars you will find most all of them will have been restored. No different here. Although as Matt and I pointed out AACA has a special class for unrestored cars called HPOF.

You had an unpleasant experience at a regional meet. Personally that is no reason to condemn the whole national organization.

[novaman]

Here is some club history: (Please note what is in red and how old this hobby acutally is)

The AACA was formed from among a small group of men who attended Antique Automobile Derbies that had began, in 1931, in connection with the Automobile Show in Philadelphia. After the fourth such Derby, Mr. Frank Abramson and Mr. Theodore Fiala conceived of the idea to form an antique automobile club from among the previous year's Derby participants. They approached Mr. Jack Dlugash, promoter of the Derbies, for the participant's names and addresses, which he gladly provided. Their letter, dated September 20, 1935, successfully interested these people in forming such an organization. A meeting was held on November 4, 1935, in the auditorium of the Automobile Club of Philadelphia. Attendance included the fourteen founder members, plus the wife of one. Thus was born America's first historical automotive society, the Antique Automobile Club of America.

The Club's first President, Mr. Frank Abramson, served the first three years. At a March 16, 1936 meeting, automotive pioneer, and AACA Honorary Member, Mr. Charles E. Duryea was scheduled to speak, but had to withdraw due to illness. Mr. Duryea and his brother, J. Frank Duryea, had created America's first commercially successful automobile. This same year a constitution was drawn up and submitted to the membership for approval. Unfortunately, Charles Duryea passed away September 28, 1938. Mr. George M. Hughes was elected President in the fall of 1938 and did much to keep our small club and magazine going, while serving five of the next six years, with 1942 being the exception, when Hyde W. Ballard served as President. During these years, beginning January 10, 1938, various AACA members had meetings in their homes. It was also in 1938 that club member George Green and his wife called attention to the club by making an 8834 mile cross country trip from their home in Lambertville, N.J. to California, touching on Canada and Mexico. The over three month journey in their 1904 Oldsmobile was made with virtually no problems. The first published drawing of the club emblem, as we know it today, was designed in 1939 by Mr. Herbert van Haagen of Upper Darby, Pa. Using a power engraver attachment, many months of labor were required for Mr. van Haagen to produce the original master pattern.

Volume 1, Number 1 of the magazine was first published in 1937 and called the Bulletin of the Antique Automobile with the first elected editor being Theodore Fiala. Beginning with the January, 1943 issue, it was renamed ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE. Through 1944, there had been a number of editors and club membership had reached 400. One of the leading personalities of our Club during this period was Mr. M.J. Duryea, the son of Charles E. Duryea. During the years following, he became Editor of ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE, and, as such, his influence was felt far and wide.

The first Annual Banquet was held on March 1, 1941, with 78 members attending. Speakers were James Melton and Ralph De Palma. During the years prior to 1942 the Club held an Annual Outing at the homes of various members. On October 18, 1942 the Annual Outing was moved to the Lamb Tavern in Springfield, Pa., with eighteen cars participating in spite of gasoline rationing! It was already a tradition. As the Club grew, the Spring Meet was held in different locales and farther afield. In 1944 there was an Annual Spring Outing at the Lamb Tavern, with an Annual Fall Outing at the Oak Terrace Country Club, in Ambler, Pa. on October 7, 1944. The year 1943 had seen Mr. Thomas McKean, Jr. become the first AACA Life Member. On December 15, 1944 a general meeting of the club was held at the Robert Morris Hotel in Philadelphia, where a new Code of By-Laws was discussed. Though not finalized at this meeting, the resulting By-Laws would establish, among other things, the board of directors concept by which AACA would be governed in the future.

The Fall Meet was moved to the Devon Horse Show Grounds in 1946 and this became the site of the Annual Fall Meet. Also in 1946, an invitation to the Golden Jubilee of the automobile industry in Detroit came to AACA and it was decided to drive there with antique cars in a tour group. The name "Glidden Tour" was proposed and this became the first of the Revival Glidden Tours. It was this event that prompted Firestone to make up new tires for these historic vehicles. One of the Detroit highlights came when George Green received a gold-colored Hudson for the performance of his venerable Cross Country 1904 Oldsmobile. This first Tour proved so popular that with tires at last available, the Glidden Tour once again became a national institution. As these Tours entered new areas, greater interest in antique cars spread and grew, as did AACA itself.

<span style="color: #CC0000">Our antique cars were, at first, not much to look at, for the <span style="font-weight: bold">criterion was, "Will they run?". </span><span style="text-decoration: underline">As competitive meets became well established the incentive for restoring the cars beyond running condition emerged.</span> Mr. Fred C. Nicholson was the first Chief Judge for the Club. By 1947 the Club had devised a classification of categories for competition, divided into four categories, and 11 classes. In 1949, Fred Nicholson retired and Mr. Donald A. Gallager became the new Chief Judge. Two more categories were introduced, these being for Model T Ford and High Wheeler cars.</span>

By 1951, the increasing numbers of competing cars necessitated developing a more comprehensive classification system. A committee was formed, which came up with the Junior/Senior system, used first at the Oct. 13, 1951 Devon Show. In time for the 1952 show season, a new eighteen category classification system was put into place that remains the basis for our present evolving vehicle classification system today. The new 1952 classifications included Classic cars, "less than 25 years old and pre-1940".

In 1953, the 200 participating cars literally overflowed the Devon Horse Show grounds. The next year our Fall Meet was invited to the Hershey Stadium. During the next 40+ years AACA experienced exciting growth and expansion. The Hershey Show has since assembled over 2,000 vehicles at one time, and the Flea Market has since become world renowned.

The demonstrated flexibility of the classification system, tuned to the times, has been complimentary to achieving this growth. In 1953 early Model A Ford cars were included in a new Class 18, "Antique Cars w/four-wheel brakes." No major changes occurred until February, 1957, when a new automotive definition and class was introduced, "Class 20 - Production Cars, 1930 to 25 years of age. In 1959 the 1928-1931 Model A's were pulled from Classes 18 and 20, and placed into their own class. In 1960, Production car and truck classes were frozen, with a 1935 cutoff date. A 1948 cutoff date was established for Classic cars. These rules remained basically unchanged until 1968, when a new rule was introduced, which allowed expansion by one year every other year. Then, the July-August, 1974 issue of ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE announced the inclusion of vehicles 25 years old and older into the classifications, effective February 1, 1975. This rule continues in effect today. During ensuing years, separate classes were implemented to separate Ford V-8 cars, Chevrolet Corvettes, Ford Thunderbirds, Ford Mustangs, 1955-57 Chevrolets, and others. New categories were developed for "specifically named Prestige cars" and "Limited Production and Prototype vehicles". In 1988 the Historical Preservation of Original Features (HPOF) class was implemented, and has proven to be very popular.

In the early years, the Club's financial business was handled by the Provident Tradesmen's Bank of Philadelphia. In 1959, at the invitation of the Hershey Estates, the financial operation of all Club business was moved to office space in the building occupied by the Hershey Museum. Mr. William E. Bomgardner became the first Business Manager, later Executive Director and Editor of the magazine. During this period, AACA purchased a building in Hershey, which is now National Headquarters. In 1986 Mr.Bomgardner retired and was succeeded by Mr. William H. Smith.

During the 1960's, Divisions were created to achieve placement of National Spring and Fall meets in all parts of the country. A cadre of volunteer National Judges was formed, and National Judging Schools began. An annual Grand National Meet was established at which only Senior vehicles would compete, and held for the first time in 1980, on the grounds of the International Salt Co. in Clarks Summit, Pa. In 1988, a Trade Show was added to the agenda of the Annual Meeting, and the Premier Founders Tour (1936 and later) was held in Huntsville, Alabama. In 1991 Roundtable Discussions at various National Meets and Tours were started, and in 1992 National Meet Seminars were first held in conjunction with a National Meet. In 1994 a new AACA Vintage Tour (1927 and earlier) was approved to augment the Reliability Tour (1914 and earlier) on odd years, beginning in 1997. Divisional Tours, shorter in duration than the previously established Tours, have been initiated, with the first being held in Manassas, Virginia during 1995.

Growing with the hobby has become a tradition with AACA as times have changed. From 850 members in 1948; 1,400 in 1949; 5,000 in 1954; 8,700 in 1959; 23,000 in 1969; 37,000 in 1976; to over 50,000 in AACA's Golden Jubilee year, 1985, growth has remained steady. Much of this growth can be credited to the outstanding dedication and achievement of the officers and directors, as well as the efforts and activities of the Regions and Chapters. Beginning with founding of the Illinois Region, the number of Regions and Chapters has grown to more than 400 today. Innovative approaches to enhance enjoyment by its members, has helped AACA achieve the enviable position of being the largest club in the world dedicated to furthering interest in, and preservation of, antique automobiles and their history.

[imported_Bob Hill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ChaplainLar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoprat,

I was disrespecting the entire AACA not what novaman or

ex98thdrill were engaged in.

How can this be an "Antique" car club when nothing

about the cars winning trophies are Antique?

(except maybe the basic body style)

I guess my eyes were opened to this, for lack of a better word, sham.

I guess I'll change my signature line to read:

HE WHO HAS THE MOST MONEY WINS! </div></div>

I hate to say it but you sound like a very bitter person because you didn't recevie a trophy. Why do you care about trophies anyway? Yes i have two Senior Cars (and no I don't beleive it is whoever has the most money wins) but I also have some nice driver's. With the exception of the trophies I have won at AACA National Meets and some specialty awards at locals shows like Best of Show or Mayor's Choice, I have thrown away every other trophy I have ever received. I simply do not care and once you get to the point where the trophy doesn't matter and the fact that you have a car to enjoy does, you will enjoy this hobby much better.

Apparently you have a nice original car but it isn't a show car as far as jduged showing goes. That is fine but you will find no sympathy here if you want to come on this forum and start criticiaing the AACA and their judging techniques. It has always amazed me that the only folks that have major issues with how the AACA operates are those who want to show their car and win a trophy but somehow expect the rules and judging criteria not to apply to them. Sorry if that steps on your toes but I am a pretty blundt person so I say what I mean.

I will make suggestion. Stop showing your car in the judged classes OR restore your car OR show your car in the judged classes and realize it will never score as high as a restored car. You may score well on originality BUT when it comes to quality, an original car will seldom if ever match a restored one in that area.

[ex98thdrill]

Geez guys, I haven't been online for a while, but it looks like there are a few people that have gone to my defense.

<span style="font-weight: bold">"HE WITH THE MOST MONEY WINS??"</span>

We've shown five vehicles in AACA, four of which we've restored. The first vehicle that we restored is a Senior Grand National winner that we have less than $11,000 in. We did that ourselves, <span style="font-weight: bold">we worked hard</span>, and I don't see where we have so much money that it's falling out of our pockets. It has taken my father his entire life, and it has taken me 20 years of my adult life to pool our resources together to do what we've done. We started out with a Ford Ranger and an old homemade race car trailer, and over the course of 20 years have built our way to bigger trucks and bigger trailers.

Yes my dad and I have done a lot, but by building our own building ourselves, pooling our money to buy tools, equipment, etc. My dad bought the trailer, and I bought the truck that pulls it. When Hershey rolls around, we stay in an Army barracks for $20-$40 a night (based on what we can get) so that we can save money for parts. Out of the cars that we've built, we've restored all of them ourselves for less money than what someone could've paid to have one of them restored.

If you saw the vehicle we had at Hershey, it was restored by someone else, we only bought it because it was a good deal, and took out a home equity loan to get the money to buy it. We bought it with the intentions of selling to make money, pay off the loan and using the extra to buy parts to restore another car, but my wife and mom fell in love with it, so we're making payments. We had the chance to sell that car at Hershey for $15,000 more than we paid for it, but due to my wife and my mom, we turned it down.

<span style="font-weight: bold">RICH???</span>

<span style="font-weight: bold">NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!</span>

Remember Benny Hill's comments about assuming....

When you assume you make an @$$ out of U and ME.

[Guest j powell]

IHAVE 2 1931 a model coupes listed on aacas how can i get them appraised.

[MCHinson]

You can probably locate an appraiser in your area by clicking on the "contact us" button on the following website.

http://www.i-van.org/

[TG57Roadmaster]

One of the best stories I've ever read came from <span style="font-style: italic">Old Cars Weekly</span> more than a dozen years ago,

a letter to the editor from a wise old gent who was present at a local show...

A man had a flawlessly restored 1961 Ford Starliner 2-door hardtop at the first show since its completion.

This car had all the right bells & whistles; correct date codes painted and assembly line

chalk marks where they should be, etc., and was dutifully trailered to the show.

When his car failed to win Best of Show, he became livid, ranting about how his car was built <span style="font-weight: bold">exactly</span>

as from the factory, following their assembly procedures to the letter. (At this point, I imagined the little

assembly line he must have recreated in his garage, complete with aerial front end clip & body drops...)

He eventually left the show still fuming, blood vessels a'bursting, cursing to Hades all within earshot.

All that over a four-foot-tall tacky plasticene dust collector. The "trophy."

The old gent, bless him, said at the letter's end that, while the Starliner was a beautiful car,

very well-restored, he just couldn't understand the man's outrage.

"I <span style="font-style: italic">drive</span> my trophy," said the wise old man.

TG

[tbirdman]

Boy, you can't let those things bother you. You never know what politics or judging criteria is used at show especially the local shows. I have won a number best of shows with my Packard at these local shows but then have lost to a #3+ driver condition MG at a "judged" show.

Plus the typical Best of Show winner is at these local shows is a 30's hot rod, including the fiberglass ones...at least in my neck of the woods.

Your right, the biggest trophy you get is when you drive them.

[imported_Bob Hill]

When I finally decided that trophies wasn't what the old car hobby was all about and enjoying the car was what it was all about, I really started enjoying old cars. I also promptly threw away over 100 trophies I have won as they had no value anymore. The only trophies I kept or now keep are my AACA National Trophies, local Best of Show trophies and a couple of Mayour's CHoice or People's Choice I have won. The rest have no value and I don't get upset if I don't win anything at all - in fact at many local shows I enter as Do Not Judge as I don't care aboutthe trophy presentation any more.

[novaman]

Personaly too many people value a $15-$30 piece of plastic that will sit around collecting dust more than the opertunity to meet new people, teach the public about the car they own, assit owners of others cars that need someone guide them on thier restoration project, and cherishing the friendship they have made with fellow hobbyists. That is the part of this hobby you can't buy.

[SolidAxle]

One take away from the original posters comments that is very noteworthy is that Regional or Chapter AACA car shows very rarely resemble National AACA car shows from a Class and Judging perspective. While I understand why this is, I have to agree with the original poster that it is somewhat disconserting to attend a local car show sponsored by an AACA Chapter or Region where the judging does not follow or even attempt to follow the AACA National standards and has no requirement for any National Judges involvement. One would think that at least the Head Judge should be an AACA National Judge so that some consistency can be applied to the event.

This complaint is not unique. I have read similar postings on this forum before regarding this issue and it seems that there could be some remedy from a National level in the form of a directive, recommendation, or standard when using the AACA name and logo at a car show.

When you think about it, this experienced just irritated a member or a potential member and their point is valid regarding expertise at non-National AACA shows. It would seem that it should at least be considered by National.

[R W Burgess]

Solid, I've noticed that there's a real struggle getting local judges of any kind to participate in local shows. Making the rules stricter would probably make that task even harder. This is a personal opinion, mind you.

I'm happy just to see a region judging cars similar to the National rules. So many regions are going to participant judging which ends up awarding trophies to a lot of "Red" cars.

Whatever works, I guess. If the car participants aren't happy, they certainly won't come back.

Wayne

[ExYankee]

There is one region I know of that has claimed to judge according to AACA rules but yet none of the cars are point judged. They walk around the cars and say 1st, 2nd, etc.

At one time the members of that region were complaining about the number of left over trophies from prevouis shows. That was about the time the show chairman appointed the national judges in the club as the judging committee. To help the trophy problem they consolidated the classes the classes some so there weren't as many (like class AACA classes 26a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m became classes 26a (a-f) and 26b(g-m)for the show) and proposed one 1st, one second, one third. This would make it so they only needed 3 times the number of classes for trophies. Club voted on it approved. At the mmet the cars were point judged. The chairman had a buddy that was upset he didn't win a trophy and the next year the show chairman removed ALL the national Judges and to over the job himself. He has 0 national judging credits himself.

The problem with doing the everything exactly as at a national meet, everyone has to be pre-registered so that the hosts know how many trophies are needed without having to buy a guessed number and either being short which the car onwer won't be happy or the club gets stuck with a number of leftover trophies each year. Also with the judging like national you need 5 people per team and multiple teams. a reasonable number of cars to point judge per team is 10-15. so if you have a 100 cars at your show, @15 cars per team your looking at needing roughly 30-35 people to judge. I know of regions that it is hard enough to get 10 people to help judge. Now that there is the second gen class there is no way you can 100% do it becasue at a national meet, the first time out they have to get the car "certified" bay national which requires them to contact other folks that have the records to verify that car was factory built. You can't pull that off at a local meet. Also with the classes and awards multiple awards per class could ruin some shows do to expense especially with a low entry fee. And if you use the AACA Classes the is something like 110 classes and a lot of the meets I've attended around here, that leaves only one to three cars in most classes. Even the mustang classes hardly get over 5 per each of the mustang classes.

Those are just some of the reasons that doing it like national is tough.

[R W Burgess]

Yankee,

We reuse our trophies the following year. We just remove the old dash plaque and replace with the next year's plaque, which has a new member car displayed.

We're also having the same "too many classes, not enough judges" syndrome. A lot of our judging teams are made up of only 2 members. I have no problem with that, as long as each car in the class is judged the same way, in a fair manner.

Wayne

[imported_Bob Hill]

I am the Chief Judge at our region show each year and Wayne is absolutely correct - trying to get judges is harder than any part of the show. I typically have 4 or 5 folks that I have judged with over the years to serve as Team Captains and then have a 15 minute training class for the folks who have volunteered to inform them of our judging methods, etc. I depend on the Team Captains to ensure consistency. We have very few complaints each year but it also isn't of the caliber of National Meet judging and will never be. I feel lucky to get the 20 folks I need to fill judging spots, much less getting 20 foks that have actually judged before.

[SolidAxle]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Solid, I've noticed that there's a real struggle getting local judges of any kind to participate in local shows. Making the rules stricter would probably make that task even harder. This is a personal opinion, mine you.

I'm happy just to see a region judging cars similar to the National rules. So many regions are going to participant judging which ends up awarding trophies to a lot of "Red" cars.

Whatever works, I guess. If the car participants aren't happy, they certainly won't come back.

Wayne </div></div>

You mean a Chapter can't find one (1) local AACA Master Judge to be the Head Judge? Perhaps with a little guidance of this sort from National the side benefit would be additional folks becoming interested in National Judging.

From the sounds of the original poster, it looks like he won't be back either.... probably to a Local or a National show. Our loss!

My experience has been that many folks are reluctant to be Judges at Local shows because they don't want to be target practice of irrate participants. Solve the standards problem and perhaps you will solve the volunteer problem. Just a thought.

[Shop Rat]

Bill and I stopped judging at local shows because it is on such a different plane than judging at AACA National shows. You have to forget everything you know about judging. Most local shows are a beauty contest and every owner thinks they should get <span style="font-weight: bold">the </span>first place, not <span style="font-weight: bold">a</span> first place.

[R W Burgess]

Solid, not including myself, our chapter has only one National Judge and he lives in Florida most of the year. We have maybe 2-3 more that attend National Meets or Tours during the year. None of those judge Nationally.

AACA National has many programs to help entice AACA judging, but National does not dictate to regions in telling them how to operate their region. I might add that there are a lot of regions in the south that never have a car show. They concentrate their efforts on touring. They're very successful at it. Of course this has nothing to do with this thread.

I consider the biggest benefit to a local show, is that the participant leave the show field happy, regardless of how the show was put on. Hopefully, they will have had a good enough time to return the following year.

Wayne

[novaman]

One other thing I have found that wasn't mentioned here is that the general public (and some AACA members at anational meet) don't understand AACA judging to begin with. I've seen guys with really nice cars 400 pointer from 20' get upset because they didn't get awards. But upon a closer look there are problems with the car. The public seems to think chrome vavle covers, chrome alt., radial tires, etc are factory and/or perfectly acceptable on say a '61 Chevrolet Impala. At the local level you want to try to please the majority, get them in the club then were we fall short, try to educate them on the national judging standards so they can be succesful at a national meet. What would be even better is to educate the public on the national judging standards at the local show.

[R W Burgess]

David,

This hits at the heart of my philosophy. Our local region went through this issue about 5 years ago. There was a lot of interest in participant judging at our annual show. I was very much against this idea. I dug my feet in, to the point of upsetting a few members.

As I see it, we are a region of the AACA, the "Antique" Car Club of America, not the Local Hot Rod/Street Car Association, whatever. It's our job, again my opinion, to promote the historical preservation of "antique" cars. So, as a region of the AACA, we should help teach local AACA members, and the public, the proper way to judge and restore antique cars. At some point, hopefully, these local AACA members will become interested enough to attend a national meet, then start the judging process where the real fun begins, getting up close and personal to the best antique cars displayed anywhere in the country.

I feel that this is our main objective as a National Club, to promote who we are, and what we stand for!

I guess I'd better add that this doesn't apply to AACA regions that do not have annual shows, although even touring regions are expected to promote the outward appearances of stock antique cars to the public.

What's that they say about the AACA "Policies and Procedure Manual"?

"It's in there, just read it!"

AACA Policies and Procedure Manual

Wayne

[Jim Bollman]

I should probably keep my mouth shut, but coming from a region that does participation voting I should at least say something.

I believe the purpose of the regions are to encourage the preservation and enjoyment of antique cars. For some people that is perfect restorations, for others it is a nice driver and still more it is just the social interaction with people of like interest and they never get a car done but enjoy the club anyway.

We do have a class for National Seniors that don't compete, they just get a nice award for bringing their cars so those attending can see what high point restoration look like.

If I had my way, we would not even have class awards at our regional show, just a few special awards. Then take the money normally spent on trophies and do something for all those attending.

I enjoy attending and judging at the National level but I don't think every show has to have that level of judging and pressure.

[R W Burgess]

Thanks for posting, Bill!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I enjoy attending and judging at the National level but I don't think every show has to have that level of judging and pressure. </div></div>

I agree. It's got to be fun for everyone involved. When I spoke of judging at the local level, I didn't expect it to mean under strict National rules. If National rules were used, some trophies would never be given out. Still, you have to start somewhere.

Wayne

[SolidAxle]

Then I guess the system is working as designed! Too bad the original poster doesn't agree.

[Guest windjamer]

IMHO participant judging has two problems. First as novaman says some folks just dont have the knowlage,outhers see a bunch of chrome, and WOW,its a winner. Never mind its not supposed to have it,its cool. Mean while a 400 pt car next to it gos home emty handed. The second problem is favoritism. We had a local car that won at every show attended. Owner was well known and well liked. He sold the car to anouther couple, and after a year of showing it at all the same shows and comeing home win less, they sold it out of state. No, you dont have to have all the pressure of Nat. , but an AACA club should strive to make the playing field fair. That can be done with vollentear judges and a half hr. of instruction befor judging starts. Car folks are not stupid, watch Fred Young give a ten min. talk on what should and should not be to new participants at a nat meet and see how fast they run to there car to make corections.

[Jim Bollman]

I agree participate judging is whatever catches the persons eye, I don't have a problem with that. Owners enter their car knowing how it is judged. Wasn't clear from some of the comments, but by participate I mean a person who has a car in a different class. We randomly hand out sheets to car owners as they register and they pick winners for one class. We do have 2 modified classes and they judge each other. The two modified class may end up as a popularity contest but the rest of the classes are judge by a random enough group I don't think it would happen often. We do have several small teams of members that pick the special awards and that is done with more care. Those awards are best Ford, GM, Chrysler, Independent, etc as well as best of show. It is interesting that there is usually a large overlap of agreement with the best of choices and what the participant picked in one of the classes.

I would have to review my photos but I don't remember red as being in the majority for cars picked either.

There are enough single marque events and National events for those that have the blood lust for serious competition with our turning every weekend car show into a judged event.

[Guest windjamer]

Jim my main reason to arrend a car show is to B.S. with people. Car owners and lookers. I go to at least a dozen every year.Believe me, red is a winning color.

[Jim Bollman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I go to at least a dozen every year.Believe me, red is a winning color. </div></div>

Oh I agree in general, your right, the cops like them to. I was just saying our show did not seem to have more red winners than other colors or at least not out of proportion from the total entered. I think if you have peoples choice instead of owners choice you will definitely run into all the problems you describe.

I sat and took photos of nearly every winner as the drove by to get their award. I will have to count them and see what the numbers are.