PESKY OIL/CHOKE LIGHTAND A NASTY VALVE OR LIFTER TAPPING

[john robinson]

HI ALL IM JOHN FROM LAS VEGAS I RECENTLY PURCHASED A 1985 BUICK RIVIERA 307 OLDS V-8 I BOUGHT IT FROM A GENTLEMAN THAT STATED MOTOR WAS BAD (HE MAY BE RIGHT. AFTER A NICE CONVERSATION WITH A MEMBER HERE I WENT OUT TO WORK ON MY CAR TO TAKLE SO TROUBLESHOOTING THIS IS WHAT I FOUND....... FIRST AN ANOYING TAPPING TICKING NOISE CAR RUNS AND DRIVES JUST TICKS TAPS AND WHEN IM COMING TO A STOP THE OIL/CHOKE LIGHT COMES ON GOES OFF EVERYTIME. NOW FOR THE FUN I REMOVED DRIVERS SIDE VALVE COVER RAN THE MOTOR AND 3 OF THE PUSH RODS WERE NOT SQUIRTING OIL UP SO OUT OF 8 OF THEM 4 WERE SHOOTING OIL VIGOROUSLY AND 1 SO SO AND 3 NOTHING AT ALL.I REMOVED THE ROCKERS FOR THE 2 THAT WERE NOT SQUIRTING AND CHECKED FOR BLOCKAGE NOTHING THEN I TOOK A COAT HANGER AND TRIED TO UNCLOG NOTHING I HAVE TO BE HONEST WHEN I PUT THE COAT HANGER THROUGH IT SOUNDED LIKE I WAS GOING THROUGH A THIN PIECE OF SOME SORT OF MEATL THAT MOVED AND MADE A FLAPPING NOISE PUT ALL TOGETHER AND NOTHIGN STILL NOISY HELP PLEASE HELP JOHN LAS VEGAS

[john robinson]

does anyone know if it is true that the push rods and rockers arms are made of aluminum

[tim63riv]

John,

The rocker arm pivots are made of aluminum, not the rocker arms or push rods. You need to get an oil pressure gauge on that engine before you do anything else. It sounds like the engine is very sludged up and may need some major work. Let us know what you get for an Oil Pressure reading at warm idle in gear. That will tell what your next step should be!

Tim

[john robinson]

im sorry i have never used an oil pressure guage before i will have to get one and try john

[john robinson]

some one told me i should get 83 or older olds motoer rocker arms and push rods and replace mine problem will be solved john

[RivNut]

John,

One of the members of my "High Milage Registry," from Miller, Missouri, has an '85 Riviera with over 530,000 miles on it. He overhauled the engine at 350,000 and I don't think he had ever had a problem with rockers and push rods.

It sounds like your engine was neglected in the preventative maintenance department. Look for way to clean the gunk from the crank case and upper end using some additives before you go tearing into the motor.

Ed

[john robinson]

oil pressure how do you test it with what kind of guage

[lrlforfun]

OK John: I used to sell cars. With the Oldsmobiles, several cars with the 350 R Olds engine (and that engine groop) had a smoking problem. The oil return holes in the head seem to always clog. This causes smoke at startup and in many cases smoke all the time. As a rule I had he mechanic remove the rocker covers, poke out the clogged holes, replace the rocker arms on the driver's bank by the egr and I was always good to go. Hope this helps. Mitch.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tim63riv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...It sounds like the engine is very sludged up and may need some major work.</div></div> I agree. Your hydraulic lifters aren't pumping because they are stuck.

When you pulled the valve covers off, what did the inside look like? If it was full of crud, I would pull the engine while it is still good, and do an overhaul.

You can pull the oil-light sending unit out and screw-in a 100-psi gauge (1/4" NPT). Having 20 to 40-psi oil pressure is essential, but it's basically a start.

[john robinson]

valve covers did not have a lot of sludge inside john

[Reatta Man]

Wow, does this ever bring back memories...and not good one!

I've had several of the early 80's Rivs with the 307. One engine I had to remove and replace a piston with a hole in it. When I removed the intake manifold, there was a glob of hardened carbon that was about 8" wide, 12" long, and about 1-2" thick at the thickest part! It blocked most of the return holes so the oil pump was probably starving and not pumping oil.

On another engine (also a 307) I had tapping noise throughout the engine. A mechanic and friend told me to replace the rocker pivots. Sounded crazy, but did it and the noise went away. They can wear out to the point that they can't be adjusted or shimed to where they will get quiet. A cheap investment before pulling or replacing the engine!

Try also running a good engine cleaner in the oil (that thin stuff that looks like kerosene) and then replace the oil with one higher grade. If you are using 10W30, go to a 20W40 or 20W50. See if it quiets things down. Also, try a semi-synthetic to clean out the carbon. And, no, I don't mean to start a debate/arguement on the merits of synthetic oil. It cleans out engines by dissolving carbon.

Hope this helps before you have to replace the engine.

Joe

[Reatta Man]

Here's a link to a parts house that sells the pivots. I'm only posting this so others will know what they look like; this parts house has these pivots WAAAAAAY overpriced:

http://paceperformance.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=194847

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Reatta Man</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a link to a parts house that sells the pivots.</div></div> You gave a link to stamped rocker arms. Where are the pivots, and how much do they want?

[Reatta Man]

They call that a rocker arm on the Web site, but that is the part that 'pivots' up and down, and the part I replaced on my Riv years ago. I may have used the wrong name, but to me, the rocker arm is the long tube that goes from the front of the head to the back, with these pivots on them on Chevy small blocks. If I remember correctly, the Olds 307 doesn't have rocker arms; these rocker pivots bolt directly to the head.

Hope this helps quiet the engine.

[RivNut]

I looked in my Haynes manual which covers these Rivieras and found this caption under a photo: <span style="font-style: italic"> </span> "Pay particular attention to the rocker arms closest to the EGR passage (arrows) at the center of the head - these tend to show more rapid wear - 350 Oldsmobile built V8 shown" <span style="font-style: italic"> </span>

The arrows point to the fifth and sixth rockers on the drivers side. The third and fourth, and the fifth and sixth rocker assemblies are tied together with bridge. Advance Auto's online shopping website shows two rockers, two pivots, and 1 bridge for less than $10.00. The part was a Sealed Power part. #R882

You've already got the vavle cover off, it might be worth checking out.

Ed

[Reatta Man]

Ed,

If they cover cars that old, you would be a WHOLE lot better off with a subscription to www.alldatadiy.com than with a Haynes manual.

Joe

[tim63riv]

Guys,

Good advice on the noise, but the real problem is the oil pressure. Until that issue is resolved, nothing else is really important. When I worked at an Oldsmobile Dealer, cylinder 3 and 5 were usually the ones with worn pivots, some even had the push rod plugged up. Invariably, the cars with the issue were ones that had very little done for maintenance. The problem was made worse by the location of the EGR valve right next to thoes two cylinders. All that being said, ticking valve train components are secondary to oil pressure issues!

Tim

[RivNut]

The Haynes manual came with the car. I've never really used it for anything. I knew it was in the back of the file cabinet and I was curious to see if there was a good picture of a rocker and pivot and discovered the picture and the caption - it reitterated what had been said earlier - the Olds engine has a rocker with pivot and the ones closest to the EGR can go bad. The manual is already back in the file cabinet.

My step son's car needs lower ball joints; perhaps I'll pull the manual out again should I decide that's something we want to undertake.

Ed

[Reatta Man]

As for the oil pressure,

1. Flush the engine

2. Go up one grade in viscosity

3. Never, ever use a Fram filter

4. If the oil pump is outside the block (don't remember) then install an oil pump kit, including a new spring and bypass plunger piston.

Good luck!

[john robinson]

does anyone know if the oil pump is outside the block and to test the oil pressure i have never done this any one have the best advice on where to get the best test equipment and how to use it

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tim63riv</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...You need to get an oil pressure gauge on that engine before you do anything else....</div></div> This is what you need first, as Tim has said, twice (he's right). Even a cheap gauge will work just fine. If you don't know what to get, go to your local auto parts store and ask. They have gauges with instructions.

[Guest acboxer]

The Olds 307 oil pump is inside the oil pan to check the oil pressure put a known working oil pressure gauge into the tapped hole in the front of the block where the oil pressure sending unit is installed the sending unit wire should be tan in color the fitting size in 1/8 pipe plug the pressure should be per shop manual at slow idle minimum of 7 PSI 1500 - 3000 RPM 35 PSI min.mum with trans in neutral at normal operating temperature. The sending unit is near the water pump the oil sending unit only has one brown wire connected to it and is mounted on the engine block.

[tim63riv]

John,

One of the upsides of a list is that there are many good intentioned people who really don't know much about your particular car or it's issue, but they are trying to be helpful. Your oil pump is inside of your oil pan, not external. You still need to hook up an oil pressure gauge to your engine to determine what your oil pressure is. Oil pressure gauges are available at most any auto parts store, you want a mechanical style gauge. If your oil pressure is too low, all the engine flushes and higher viscosity oil in the world isn't going to cure it, at best they will mask the issue for a short while. If your oil pressure is with specs, then you can move on to other remedies.

Tim

[Guest simplyconnected]

We've been talking about this 304 for four days, and still don't know whether it has proper oil pressure because John doesn't have a gauge, and doesn't know how to check it. There have been lots of helpful suggestions, but none of them were followed because:<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: john robinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...i have never done this any one have the best advice on where to get the best test equipment and how to use it </div></div> If John wants the best, he should hire a professional who has invested in the best tools, and who will guarantee his work. John, there is a learning curve involved here. Let's move on.

[john robinson]

ok i was pm from a gentelman thank you im on the way to get and oil pressure guage the socket and test ill will let you all know by the weekend thanx to all i just need a lil direction

[Reatta Man]

Tim,

I disagree. Higher viscosity oil WILL raise oil pressure, not mask it. Oil pressure goes down due to tolerances increasing to at or above acceptable OEM specs between some or many key components, including the pump itself. Higher viscosity oil, which remains thicker at higher temps, will actually help fill those gaps left when thinner oil flows out or off of surfaces.

As for the flush, there is a small chance the oil pressure is low due to clogged passages or a partially blocked oil screen. A flush could (not a guarantee) help clear up some of these conditions, thus also raising oil pressure. If he tears down the engine, replaces the pump and screen, but the low pressure is caused by partially blocked passages, a new pump won't fix the tapping noise caused by low pressure.

It isn't automatically necessary to tear down an engine, especially when the block must be raised substantially off of the motor mounts in order to get the oil pan off.

It took more than 20 years for the oil pressure to get into this situation. Raising the pressure via thicker oil could keep the engine in service for many more years before a teardown is needed.

If the flush and thicker oil DOESN'T fix his problem, then a teardown may be warranted. However, I prefer to start with the easiest potential solution and then work up to the more difficult ones.

[tim63riv]

Reatta Guy

And I have to disagree with you. Without ANY indication of where the oil pressure pressure is, why on earth would you flush the engine or increase the viscosity of the oil?! It could just be a bad sender!

My background is an automotive technician or instructor since 1978 and the first 7 years of my career were spent at an Oldsmobile dealership as an ENGINE technician. I am currently teaching automotive technology in the GM ASEP program and GM Training center. I am ASE master certified, a GM World Class Technician and a Technical Advisor for the ROA. I have diagnosed and repaired more automobiles then I care to remember.

That being said, I do value your opinion on the situation with John's 307. I just don't believe that "remedies" in a can are in ANY way a substitute for solid diagnosis.

Tim

[Reatta Man]

He said it was tapping, which sounded to me like starving lifters.

There is no way to offer a solid diagnosis over the internet. But, tapping+oil light= low oil pressure. Yes, an oil pressure gauge (even a $10 import from a big box store) will just confirm that is almost certainly the problem in a 20+ year old engine.

[Guest simplyconnected]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: john robinson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...FIRST AN ANOYING TAPPING TICKING NOISE ...WHEN IM COMING TO A STOP THE OIL/CHOKE LIGHT COMES ON GOES OFF. ...I REMOVED DRIVERS SIDE VALVE COVER... AND 3 OF THE PUSH RODS WERE NOT SQUIRTING OIL</div></div> Using higher viscosity oil is a recipe for disaster. This engine is DIRTY, lifter plungers are siezed, no oil is delivered to some rocker arms, and at least three pivots are worn out. That's why it 'ticks'.

Now, you want to keep running it? Why don't you fix it? After finding acceptable oil pressures, you can start with new lifters and rocker arm assemblies. Even then, I don't think it will last very long because some of the valves were starved for oil (for a long time).

Save your money and use it to overhaul this engine while you still can.

[john robinson]

ok everyone autozone in las vegas rented me an oil guage very nice i pulled the oil sending unit from the block with the 1 brown wire installed the guage it had between 6 psi and 7 psi at idle and when i reved it up it shot up to 24 to 25 psi of oil pressure thanx for you help in advane what is next and also all of your patience john

[john robinson]

as far as the poi ;ight it only comes on when im coming to a stop then shuts off john real quick when i hit the brakes on the off

[tim63riv]

John,

Was your engine cold or fully warmed up when you checked your oil pressure? Oil pressure will be higher with the engine cold and it will drop as the engine warms up. This is caused by the oil thinning slightly as it warms up and the engine internal clearances opening up as the engine warms up.

Tim

[Guest simplyconnected]

John, with all due respect, don't take this engine very far from home. It is worn, dirty, and it needs major help. Your oil pressure drops so low that the 'oil' light comes on, which means you have no oil flow. The gauge confirmed that your oil pressure light works just fine, and your maximum pressure isn't enough.

Using higher viscosity oil might raise pressure, but it is a false assumption that your moving parts are being lubricated. They aren't. Your valves aren't opening all the way because the worn pivots relaxed valve train tolerances. That 'tick' sound you hear is the slop. Dirt has blocked oil flow, and the only way to fix this situation is to remove the dirt/varnish/crud manually, and replace all worn and stuck parts.

[tim63riv]

John,

I agree with simpyconnected. Your engine may still be able to be repaired, but if you continue to drive it, you may damage it beyond any economical repair. 6 to 7 pounds of oil pressure is barely enough to keep the lifters pumped up, let alone maintain internal pressure and be able to direct oil to the pivots and rocker arms through the push rods.

Worn rod bearings, main bearings and camshaft bearings are all likely causes of low oil pressure, but a failed/worn oil pump can be the cause, too.

Now it is decision time, do you repair/overhaul what you have, replace it with a remanufactured 307 or buy a used engine and swap it into your Riviera. The answer depends on your financial stuation, how attached you are to the car, your level of mechanical knoledge and availability of tools and space to do the work.

Maybe there are some local Riviera or Buick folks that can help you out!

Tim

[john robinson]

ok guys i went back to autozone got the guage again i will retest as all i did was iinstall the guage start it and not warm it up i will repost this weekend or end of the week with engine warmed up john thanx in advance for everyones patience

[john robinson]

in neutral at idle warmed up the oil pressure shot up to 16 now and reved up warm it shot up to 34 not what is the next step guys i also did a oil change and filter 10 w 30 john

[john robinson]

also guys i bought new pushrods rocker arm pivets and rocker arms for cylinders 3 nd 5 anyone know the torque setting to bolt them down john

[john robinson]

can anyone help with the torque setting on the rocker arm bolts john

[Guest acboxer]

Shop manual states 28 Ft Lbs for the hold down bolts

[john robinson]

thank you very much i changed 4 push rods 4 rocker arms and 2 pivots a lot quiter john