Question about Judging Rules

[nearchoclatetown]

Matt M, I'm not an expert on ANYTHING, there are plenty of others here that are. I do know there are way too many grey areas in what is legal and what is not as far as AACA judgeing is concerned. Just saw a Fitch Corvair last weekend, certainly didn't come from the factory that way, but it should, in my opinion, be allowed on a AACA showfield. Berger Camaros, Baldwin Corvettes, Shays, etc.etc. But then I'm in favor of the historically significant hotrod class too, but that's another arguement. But why not coversion vans, there were certainly plenty of Choo-Choo custom vans or pickups or other brands, that there's got to be a good one left somewhere worth showing? They are NO differant then Shelbys or Yencos.

[Peter Gariepy]

1. As a judge i'd have to mark off for the signature on the dash board for the Ford Mustang Cobra. REASON? Because it didnt come that way from the factory or dealer. 1-2 points isnt going to hurt it's chance of getting an award though so those few points are not a big deal as long as the rest of the car is correct.

1a. If it was a Shelby Cobra that had a signature on the dash i would NOT mark it off, because there is a chance it COULD have come from the factory that way.

2. Yankos, Berger, etc. If i can walk into a Chevrolet dealer and order the car and have it delivered to me with all those options then its acceptable.

3. Shay? Isn't that a Model T factory built replica? That goes into another class altogether.

4. Conversion vans... same thing, if I can buy it from the dealer that way then it should be acceptable.

---

As to modifying the judges guidelines to accommodate all this - where does it stop? The manual would be 1000 pages if every little nuance of automobilia has to be covered. I think "common sense" still have room here.

[Olds 442]

A Shay is a Model A replica.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Peter Gariepy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think "common sense" still have room here. </div></div>

One would think and hope so. But sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. Especially when judges indicate in writing here on the forums that they plan to deduct for things they have been told not to. (T-3 headlights for example, which will be covered in the 2009 Judges Guidelines for that very reason.)

I totally agree that everything cannot be addressed. But as newer cars come into the system there will have to be adjustments so that judging will be fairly and evenly done by all judges. The owners and the vehicles they bring deserve that.

[javabug]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: nearchoclatetown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So where's this class for conversion vans you were talking about? </div></div>

Stonefish has a nice Ford conversion that is almost ready for the AACA field. Just waiting on the steam cleaner to take care of a few pesky stains on the rear seat upholstery.

[Guest Stonefish]

Pimp van would be the sh*t on the showfield....maybe in HPOF, or...with original paint, and shag it would fit right into the commercial truck class stuff it full of Marshall amps and drum cases I'm thinking 1st Jr. without a doubt, from what I've seen in the past few years at Hershey, why not!! Long live the Marques!

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok expert judges, reread the original post! The question was about AACA rules, not opinions or value</div></div> Yeah Doug, I did read the post, and if you read the first response you'd have seen where I happened to be the first person to answer his question from the standpoint of the rules.

I explained that it could result in a deduction, if he was worried about losing an award on the car to take it off, but I also told him if the car were mine I'd leave it in place, as a Judge I wouldn't deduct for it, and if someone has a fit for my lack of deducting a point for a signature on a glovebox, don't make me an interior judge (which is my least favorite) or send me home. We can't divulge the scores to the owner, it isn't like a major change in engine, tires, paint color, etc. so from a personal standpoint, I'd overlook it. Of course in this Datsun, I might not overlook it only because I'm not familiar with the guy, but I'd most likely overlook a Corvette with Zora Duntov's signature. Especially if the owner had a picture of Zora signing the car (which a lot of people do when getting something signed).

David had a good point, if he had an Earnhardt or Gordon Monte Carlo, I would've thought that would've been accepted. I understand what would be said, but I also understand that a lot of custom vehicles leave the factory and don't necessarily go back to a factory dealer (ambulances, buses, hearses, limos, fire trucks, wreckers, garbage trucks etc.) and there are some cases where people buy a bare truck chassis, and then send it out to have whatever they wanted built on to the back of it. In a case of a lot of the dealers of specialty vehicles, the vendor orders a chassis, sends it to the factory to do their work, and then it goes directly through to the customer. I know that during my time with the fire department, we've never picked up a fire truck or ambulance from a dealer. We've either gone to the factory and picked it up, or the salesman picked it up and delivered it. I know in the case of our own pumper, it left Dearborn, went to American LaFrance, and the guys jumped on the train and went to Elmira to drive it back. I don't believe it has ever been to a Ford dealer for anything in 66 years.

The same argument could be used against that truck that is used against an Earnhardt Monte Carlo. It isn't a factory deal, but it is something that was done after the vehicle left the factory, and before the customer took delivery of it as a new vehicle.

.....David, you should've kept the car. That would've been nice to see in the years ahead

[Restorer32]

Yea, but it was done in a factory, just as custom bodied Classics were done "in a factory", not at home, or in the case of signatures, on a show field somewhere. I would deduct a point for the signature but it certainly isn't something to get too excited about. Now, if it can be documented that the signing was done in the factory that's another story....

[Guest Stonefish]

I'm glad to see that judging is so open to the discretion of each judge...I would here and I wouldn't there

when you are dealing with a 10 point rule...EVERY point counts!

[Guest imported_Matt M, PA]

I frankly see no gray area here. The signature is subject to a deduction.

I do understand that Carroll Shelby is an icon. In the modern "real" Shelbys, there is a plaque on the dash with their logo, car info, and his signature. That belongs there. A signature in grease pencil, Sharpee or paint pen does not. (For the record, the new Shelby GT500 is not a Shelby built car and has no signature plaque..it's built 100% by Ford)

While it's true that AACA rules allow for other club's badges...what we are dicussing is not a badge or vehicle nameplate. It's an autograph.

Which brings me to a somewhat silly analogy. If someone other than Shelby were to sign a Shelby's glovebox door...would it not be considered graffitti?

[charlier]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stonefish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm glad to see that judging is so open to the discretion of each judge...I would here and I wouldn't there

when you are dealing with a 10 point rule...EVERY point counts! </div></div>

When you are dealing with a 5 point rule...Every Point Counts even MORE!

This situation and some other vehicles mentioned in this thread have the potential to create more and more controversy down the road.

IMHO, this very discussion points to the need for a clear policy in the judges manual.

Please, add this to the list of topics to be discussed when the 2009 Judges Manual is put together.

[Restorer32]

I find it disturbing that a judge would in effect say "yea I know what the rule is but personally I wouldn't deduct for it". I think every exhibitor deserves as level a playing field as possible.

[Steve Moskowitz]

Jeff, I have alerted the appropriate people to this thread.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stonefish</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...when you are dealing with a 10 point rule...EVERY point counts! </div></div>

Check out this thread that I started on 10/17/04 regarding that very subject.

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/topics/280555/Little_things_that_will_cost_y#Post280555

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Restorer32</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think every exhibitor deserves as level a playing field as possible.</div></div>

I agree <span style="font-weight: bold">100%. </span>

[Guest windjamer]

Loseing a point for something you didnt know about or didnt see is tough luck,giving it away when you know about it is just plane stupid. After reading Susans post I went out and looked at my antania, cost me sixty bucks for a new mast and worth every penny to save that point. As a judge its right or wrong the only choice I have is the number of points I take. Almost right counts in horse shoes and hand grenades only.

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: windjamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">After reading Susans post I went out and looked at my antania, cost me sixty bucks for a new mast and worth every penny to save that point.</div></div>

Wow wj, sure am sorry I cost you sixty bucks. How about I buy you a cup of coffee and some shoo-fly pie at Hershey?

It really always has amazed me what people don't do or overlook that is so easy to take care of and save that point.

[zulaytr]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Shop Rat</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You're welcome Bob and good luck at the show. Be sure to come back and tell us how you did. </div></div>

Shop Rat

I just got back from the meet in Cleveland TN. As I noted in my earlier post about judging this was my first AACA event. The local club did a super job and it was an enjoyable weekend and show. I thought I would drop you a quick note to tell you that I did swap out the glove door and I received my First Junior Award. Thanks to all who gave my their input on this. I did attend the judging training meeting and found it helpful as well.

Regards,

Bob

[Shop Rat]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: zulaytr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...I did swap out the glove door and I received my First Junior Award. Bob </div></div>

Bob, That is awesome. I always love to hear that someone not only had a great time at a show but also walked away with the award they were hoping for.

I think that going to a judging school/CJE class, or more than one, is a great way to understand the process even if you never get into that side of the hobby.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Originally Posted By: windjamer

After reading Susans post I went out and looked at my antania, cost me sixty bucks for a new mast and worth every penny to save that point.

Wow wj, sure am sorry I cost you sixty bucks. How about I buy you a cup of coffee and some shoo-fly pie at Hershey?

It really always has amazed me what people don't do or overlook that is so easy to take care of and save that point. </div></div>We put all new glass in a car for the sake of gaining points, and it was a whole lot more than $60. We didn't have the correct extinguishers for the fire truck and it cost us $400 for the correct ones (two of them).

I'd love to gain a point for $60......

At $60 per point, you could get a 400 point car for $24,000. It's getting tough to restore a car for that price at this day and age.