Resto Rod ????

[Guest 1956Packard]

Come on now Twitch. Wow.

Quite frankly your logic escaped me about 4 posts ago.

I didn't even try with Superod's last one - it was out there.

Twitch, is it fair to distill your last one down and say you don't have enough information to conclude, one way or another, that this is a problem / concern / issue?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1956Packard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Come on now Twitch. Wow.

Quite frankly your logic escaped me about 4 posts ago.

I didn't even try with Superod's last one - it was out there.

Twitch, is it fair to distill your last one down and say you don't have enough information to conclude, one way or another, that this is a problem / concern / issue?

</div></div>

He's counting 1947 Cadillacs in order to rationalize the destruction of (say) Murphy-bodied Packards from the 1930s. Do you really expect a reasonable explanation?

If you were to give someone this hard set in their position hard numbers to back up a reasonable position, they'd simply question the source and find/invent some other reality in which they make sense and no one else does.

Much like the people who think the eradication of an endangered species is a worthy mission (<span style="font-style: italic">I have to commend Twitch for choosing that analogy. It's perfect.</span>), some people on this subject just have to be left behind. There will never be a sound argument in favor of what they propose or advocate, and trying to have them follow their own logic around to see the flaws in it will also never happen.

[Guest superods]

Gee 56.... I was just lamenting the outlay of good money after bad..... with that last post.

Was answering Matt's questions, nothing more.

[Twitch]

I have no fear of half million and up dollar cars being modded. A 32 Packard Vickie is in that range for a superb one. Even Supperods hasn't got that kind of money and likely no one else does either.

So the bottom line is simply that a very few people have modified normal production Packards but have not laid out 500 Gs and up for any true classic. Nobody has turned a Pierce Arrow into a street rod, or a Delage, or a Dusenberg or a Voisin. So why are you now alluding to the fact? Lets see the pictures.

The undeniable fact remains that none of us know how many of any car exist unless in isolated, very special cases where factory procution records are borne out by all the special cars still existing. Beyond that no one on this forum knows how many of each model during each years was manufactured in Packard since much of the records were dumped in the river. And for all the other marques no one knows how many survive either. Dave says he does but hasn't posted one legitimate factory production figure. You don't know how many of each Packard model was constructed in the 1930s and you don't know how many remain. To say otherwise is simply a lie.

SUPERODS and other newcomers- About every 6 months or so a few sob sisters get all feminine emotional after something sets them off and harangue everyone that doesn't share their exact, illogical point of view about cars. The recurring paranoia is that there just aren't enough 100% stock cars out there.

They're irrationally worried about things over which they have no control- what's going to happen to their cars when they die? How many cars are hotrodders modding per year? Will people in 100 years have vintage cars to see? Then they cry themselves dry and go along till somone like you comes along and set them off again.

Oh, of course none of them will or can do anything about any of the transgressions they perceive to be perpetrated by others, like you, whose actions they consider responsible for ruining car hobbys forever. It's just all talk and emotional feelings like Oprah.

And so ends the St. Patricks Day 2008 tear jerker.....

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Beyond that no one on this forum knows how many of each model during each years was manufactured in Packard since much of the records were dumped in the river. And for all the other marques no one knows how many survive either.

</div></div>

Check out www.packardclub.org all the production numbers are there. As far as how many survived, no one knows to the last car, but many models have registries that are pretty accurate. A good example is the '56 Caribs..most are accounted for. Also the various clubs have good estimates, even special lists for cars like 1956 Stude Golden Hawks (56J newsletter).

If you wish to advocate hacking up irreplaceable cars or using Spotted Owls for skeet shooting targets go for it. If enough people exist with that mindset and the resources to do it there will come a day when unmolested original examples of these fine cars will be just a digital memory.

[mrpushbutton]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Nobody has turned a Pierce Arrow into a street rod

</div></div>

Confusing the argument with facts:http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=MM07&CarID=r143&Currency=

[Guest imported_Speedster]

http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=MM07&CarID=r143&Currency=

[Steve_Mack_CT]

"About every 6 months or so a few sob sisters get all feminine emotional after something sets them off and harangue everyone that doesn't share their exact, illogical point of view about cars." - really.. Twitch, do you consider yourself tolerant of anyone who disagrees with you and actually posts an opinion??

I thought the initial post was clear enough. In limiting the discussion to Full Classics, Packards in particular some are being lost to rodders - there is certainly enough evidence to that effect. Is it reasonable to assume that:

1) On a site dedicated to "the preservation and restoration" of antique automobiles you will find more people who prefer these cars be kept in authentic condition? This is by choice or focus of interest, not by being a slave to a club or rulebook. For some, this is part of the hobby.

2) Full Classics are not all $500K cars. If you believe they have been recognized for valid reasons (If I need to list these, then this post is pointless.) by the CCCA then they do not need to be the rarest or priciest to be have historical significance. Many are in the $15 - 50K range. Still a shame to see them ruined IF you are a fan or original or authentic cars.

3) No one is questioning one's freedom to do what they want, and I really don't want to get personal. That said, I would not expect a builder like Superrods (who seems like a nice enough guy) to apologize for his actions (which he has not, he apologizes for offending anyone - unnecessary as he is just expressing an opinion.) to anyone here who does not agree with what he is doing with some of his projects. Likewise I see no reason to cheer that on or apologize for believing that is not the ideal course of action for a nice original or restoration. No one is preparing to storm his shop and chain themselves to the grille of his latest build until he relents, right? (Well, maybe Matt - we will watch him! )

I think the "take a deep breath" advice is best here. In amongst the arguments there is some interesting discussion.

BTW - a friend of mine built one of the first "Resto Rods" from a '33-'34 Cadillac shell. Full Classic. Saved it from scrapyard and was (and is) a hit with rodders and restorers, done in the 80s. Truly a one of a kind at the time. So I do have an open mind. He sold his Packard DCP but kept this car when he started getting up there in age because it is so driveable. Now in his 70s he puts a lot of miles on the Caddy. Packard drove like a "fire truck" according to him. Good use for this car, but it was not a nice original or restored car.

Suggestion - agree to disagree and move on.

Happy Motoring.

[Guest superods]

I never could get past the headlamps. But.... just saw in Hemmings a 1929 Pierce Arrow convertible, one of only four built.... and the only one with bracket headlamps... for 136K. Now that one I would own, but you can keep all those bug eyed things.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrpushbutton</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Twitch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Nobody has turned a Pierce Arrow into a street rod

</div></div>

Confusing the argument with facts:http://www.rmauctions.com/CarDetails.cfm?SaleCode=MM07&CarID=r143&Currency= </div></div>

I think I had that one in <span style="font-style: italic">Lost Souls</span>. The photo link isn't working but the description of a tan car sounds familiar.. I also had this one: http://www.americandreamcars.com/1934piercearrow0704.htm, and at least one other. A black coupe, I think.

[Studemax]

Here's yet another Pierce-Arrow street rod, powered by a 502 c.i. bowtie motor.

NOTHING is sacred, guys - it's just raw material waiting for its next version.

http://www.autabuy.com/Vehicles/Details.cfm?VID=162031

I thought the purist snobs in the SDC were bad, you Packard guys take the cake!

[mrpushbutton]

Again, with the "purist snobs" comments. Some of us understand that a Packard in the 20s and 30s represented a pinnacle of automotive building for its time and that we are merely the current maintainer of that history. The car will be here after we are gone. Studebaker made a decent car from time to time, when they weren't busy driving other companies bankrupt, and I have seen a number of their products rodded and have not generally liked what I saw.

GM engine/trans

Ford rear end

Ford (copy) front suspension

catalog mail-order seats

and my personal least favorite bad rodding habit:

Chrome bumpers painted body color

I have a hard time calling that rolling bastard a Studebaker (or Packard,or Pierce Arrow.......)

Its just a monument to what one guy felt like doing.

You can call us snobs, but I think the "raw material" our cars represent was pretty damn good, and yes, I do think of it as seeing my sister marry beneath her.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Studemax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's yet another Pierce-Arrow street rod, powered by a 502 c.i. bowtie motor.

NOTHING is sacred, guys - it's just raw material waiting for its next version.

http://www.autabuy.com/Vehicles/Details.cfm?VID=162031

I thought the purist snobs in the SDC were bad, you Packard guys take the cake! </div></div>

There are likely many more Pierces that have suffered this fate already. Few makes have escaped this completely so far, and before it's over I doubt any will be unscathed. I took about a month on <span style="font-style: italic">Lost Souls</span>, but I did eventually find a late 1920s (English, not Springfield) Rolls-Royce that had been chopped and rodded with a crate engine. There's no doubt that we're in for a lot more Kentucky Fried Condor to be served.

As for this (at least my own) position beding described as "purist". BULL---T!

Using the term "purist" implies a like objection to small-block deuce coupes and/or big-block Lowey coupes. While I don't like them much myself, I've never wasted a breath or keyboard wear to complain about <span style="text-decoration: underline">them</span>. There are at least hundreds if not thousands of differing sources for the material needed to make street rods out of <span style="text-decoration: underline">them</span>. When you're bragging that your street rod is "1 of 3 known to exist.", you know d@mn good and well that this is an exception to the ususal concept of building a street rod.

I know I personally am not on here bemoaning the loss of the next Lark Daytona or '63 Riviera. To equate the loss of <span style="text-decoration: underline">these</span> kinds of cars with the loss of the true automotive treasures we're really discussing here seems to me to be far more in the way of "snobbery" or hubris than anything the so-called "purists" have been advocating here. It takes a heck of a street-rodder to advocate his hobby at the extreme expense of another. When you hear of someone out there buying up Ardun heads and melting them down for authentic part castings, then we'll have an equivalent to call "snobs".

Then again, some people aren't perceptive enough to see the difference between a Brunn-bodied Pierce and '38 Chevy. I hope there few here who are in that class.

[LINC400]

I like only 100% stock antique cars. I can respect that some people like rods and customs. But I don't think it should be done to a rare, fully restored car. If it is done to a common car or something pulled out of a junkyard that would have cost 5 times what it is worth finished to restore to stock, ok.

And who decided that it is not ok to rod only full classics worth $150K or more? What snob decided it is ok to chop up rare Hudsons, Packards, and Nashes from the 1950's simply because they are not worth $150K?

No I do not have statistics of how many rare models of each car are left and how many have been rodded or refitted. But I can tell you that I see more rare cars having this done to them each year, and I find it disturbing. It is a trend that is increasing, not just a few cars here and there.

I have heard of Packards, Lincolns, and Pierce Arrows being "refitted" with new fenders, headlights, etc. by their original owners so that they did not have to spend another $5K to $7K to replace their custom bodied 1930 limo in 1934. So I guess Superods is about 120 years old if he coined the term "refitted".

I can afford to buy and restore only one car. So I asked here and on another forum some questions about a 1956 Packard I was thinking about buying. Obviously I wasn't expecting a complete diagnosis and estimate, but some comments and opinions would have been useful. I got one reply on each forum. Apparently everyone can get on their soapbox and preach their opinion about rod vs. stock. But only one person on each forum can be bothered to try to actually help someone that wants to save a stock car. Thank you to those two that replied.

Also I have read the post about having wills with other club members because there is no one to leave all of your cars to. How about making friends with someone that would really appreciate one of your cars and giving them a break on the price? I will not be buying the '56 Packard because everthing I have researched shows that he is asking $2K more than what the car is worth. I do not have that $2K, and if I did, I would want to spend it on restoring it, not an inflated price. He has 40 cars. He says this was one of the first cars that he bought, and has owned it for 35 years. I thought it might mean something to him if I promised I would never rod it or put goofy 22" wheels on it. But it is more important for him to try and get that extra $2K that it is not worth. If some rodder wants to overpay for it, have at it. I tried.

[tbirdman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I will not be buying the '56 Packard because everthing I have researched shows that he is asking $2K more than what the car is worth. I do not have that $2K, and if I did, I would want to spend it on restoring it, not an inflated price. </div></div>

Trying to figure out price on old cars is tough. There is just not enough transaction to examine. You figure he's asking 2K too much. There is so much variables on old cars that his price could be right on the money. You may go buy a car that is $2K cheaper, and that money you saved could be easily exceeded by repair cost. I'm not saying that his price is correct but sometimes a sound car owned by a sound mechanic or collector is worth the little extra up front in the long run. There's a lot of crap out there for sale, so be careful and good luck on your hunting.

[LINC400]

He is asking $7000. I say $5000. It needs a complete interior - headliner, seats, door panels, rear deck, carpet, dash pad, trunk liner. Paint job was just done, color is off and it was a quickie to cover flaws. No trim removed, rust under all of it, sections of bondo. Most options not working. Cracked front windshield, and 2 side windows. Rear bumper spray painted silver. Big dent in front fender and trim from front bumper support bowing out when the front bumper was dented. Bad brakes. Won't let you drive it. I researched every repair, part, fabric it needs. Everything I mention it needs he says can be fixed easily or only costs 1/3 of what I was told to fix it. Tons of other misc wrong. Looks great in pictures, no so in person. It has already sold. I think I escaped a headache.

[tbirdman]

I'm glad you did your research. Even at the $2K difference, that sounded like a big money pit.

[Studemax]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrpushbutton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of us understand that a Packard in the 20s and 30s represented a pinnacle of automotive building for its time and that we are merely the current maintainer of that history.

Studebaker made a decent car from time to time, when they weren't busy driving other companies bankrupt, and I have seen a number of their products rodded and have not generally liked what I saw. </div></div>

OK - first of all, pinnacle hell - this afternoon I toured a Pebble Beach winning collectors garage full of 20's and 30's era European autos that exceed many Packards in quality.

Second - like many Packard-o-philes, you're just P.O.'d that Packard croaked after the merger with Studebaker. BOTH companies lied to each other, and were going down the tubes anyway. Even without the merger, Packard would have evaporated by 1965.

So, yeah - snobs fit just right!

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Apparently everyone can get on their soapbox and preach their opinion about rod vs. stock. But only one person on each forum can be bothered to try to actually help someone that wants to save a stock car.

</div></div>

Sorry, but with that attitude I doubt you will gain many friends here. I saw your post about the '56 400 and could add nothing beyond what John Lauter posted, so I didn't. Most members here don't appreciate being told to jump at your command, or being reprimanded when they don't.

Next to a Caribbean, the '56 400 HT is the most desirable car of that model year. Assuming it is not a rust bucket or missing major parts, $7500 does not seem far out of line. NADA shows a low retail of $8500, high retail at $29K.

.

[Dave@Moon]

<span style="font-weight: bold">"Negative waves, man! Too many negative waves!"</span>

[Guest imported_Speedster]

LOL Yep, Negative Waves.

Man, everyone is in a Bad-Mood, these days.

Is everyone still Snowed-In, Or something ?

I won't tell you how nice the weather is here, It would only make you feel worse. LOL Oops, I guess I just did, Sorry Aboout that.

[mrpushbutton]

..Then call me a snob, I'm comfortable with that.

[LINC400]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packard8</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Apparently everyone can get on their soapbox and preach their opinion about rod vs. stock. But only one person on each forum can be bothered to try to actually help someone that wants to save a stock car.

</div></div>

Sorry, but with that attitude I doubt you will gain many friends here. I saw your post about the '56 400 and could add nothing beyond what John Lauter posted, so I didn't. Most members here don't appreciate being told to jump at your command, or being reprimanded when they don't.

Next to a Caribbean, the '56 400 HT is the most desirable car of that model year. Assuming it is not a rust bucket or missing major parts, $7500 does not seem far out of line. NADA shows a low retail of $8500, high retail at $29K.

. </div></div>

As I have said, I don't expect anyone to jump at my command. No one is obligated to reply to me or help me in any way. However, I bet if anybody else on here needed to make a huge financial decision quickly, they would be disappointed with one reply as well. Especially when they can see that a topic that is purely opinion with no right or wrong answer seems much more important to everybody. I bet if I went on a rod and custom forum asking how to pimp it out, I would have gotten a whole slew of replies. If you are truly interested in preserving the cars, then please try and help to do that when possible. Even if it is only saying "I agree with what X said" I also belong to the Continental Owners Club forum. And plenty of them say that when they agree but have nothing more to add. I do it myself. I am not expecting anybody to hand me a free car or fix it for me. But hearing a few comments when you are uncertain can be a big help.

I feel that I made the right decision on the car. The info I had was $1200, $3600, $6000, 13,500, $20,000, and $30,000. $13,500 being a good 20 footer. It was nowhere near that. I figured $5K for paint (even tho it was just painted, it would need to be repainted), $5K interior, $1k windshield installed, $2K mechanical, $1K misc. $1200 shipping. More $K's I forgot. Plus I suspect there were other things wrong with it. I think an offer of $5k was quite fair considering the condition. I am aware the 400 is the 2nd most desirable '56.

[tbirdman]

If you are adding up what it would take to make a #5 car into a presentable car, you almost always are better buying the best car you can afford. I can imagine most Packards selling for $5K or $7K would need a lot of work. All that work cost $.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Studemax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's yet another Pierce-Arrow street rod, powered by a 502 c.i. bowtie motor.

NOTHING is sacred, guys - it's just raw material waiting for its next version.

http://www.autabuy.com/Vehicles/Details.cfm?VID=162031

I thought the purist snobs in the SDC were bad, you Packard guys take the cake! </div></div>

OK, Stude, here's a challenge for you:

I'll give you a car like this in #4 condition (complete, solid, but not road-worthy and cosmetically deteriorated):

1932 Studebaker President sedan (recognized as a Full Classic, and say, maybe one of about 50 extant).

I'll also give you $50,000 cash that you must spend on the car.

What do you do?

[Packard8]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I feel that I made the right decision on the car. </div></div>

And I suspect the seller made the right decision in rejecting your offer.

I've sold about 10 Packards on eBay over the past few years (including a 1956 400 to a member here). Most transactions went very well but some buyers have unrealistic expectations and tend to overly nit-pik 50 year old cars. I listed one car as "rust free" (it was) and when the buyer in NY received the car he sent me a rather irate email claiming I had misrepresented the car because the driveshaft was rusty.

I suggested that he go to his local Chevy, Ford or Dodge dealership and look under the brand new pickup trucks (or any rear wheel drive vehicle) and report back on the appearance of the driveshafts.

Never heard back from the fellow......

.

[Guest superods]

Matt...you are a generous sort. I think that is a trick question though. I would have someone pick up the car and I pick up the 50k....and not waste my time on that sedan. Put the money to good elsewhere.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: superods</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Matt...you are a generous sort. I think that is a trick question though. I would have someone pick up the car and I pick up the 50k....and not waste my time on that sedan. Put the money to good elsewhere. </div></div>

That's probably the most dissappointing answer to Matt's question that I can think of. In other words if it's not worth making a street rod out of (by one's own standards), it's not worth considering at all, even if it's a rare and storied Full Classic. (<span style="font-style: italic">I think that's a fair rewording, not adding anything to the meaning or changing it in the least.</span>)

These are the people making street rods.

[mrpushbutton]

Dave@moon, are you assuming that he (or another streetrod builder) might go for it because it's a #4 needing lots of work? or am I reading your last post wrong?

[34PackardRoadsta]

The horse ain't dead yet?

[LINC400]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Packard8</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LINC400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I feel that I made the right decision on the car. </div></div>

And I suspect the seller made the right decision in rejecting your offer.

I've sold about 10 Packards on eBay over the past few years (including a 1956 400 to a member here). Most transactions went very well but some buyers have unrealistic expectations and tend to overly nit-pik 50 year old cars. I listed one car as "rust free" (it was) and when the buyer in NY received the car he sent me a rather irate email claiming I had misrepresented the car because the driveshaft was rusty.

I suggested that he go to his local Chevy, Ford or Dodge dealership and look under the brand new pickup trucks (or any rear wheel drive vehicle) and report back on the appearance of the driveshafts.

Never heard back from the fellow......

. </div></div>

Yes, the seller made the right decision rejecting my offer because he got his price from somebody else.

And I think that I made the right decision passing on it. I suspect I escaped a huge headache and moneypit. Most others seem to think so as well. The few that don't have never even seen one picture of the car. And when I specifically asked for opinions, they had nothing to say.

The guy that is getting screwed is the one that is buying it based on the seller's description and pictures alone. He never went to look at it himself. That is his own fault. The car looked great in the pictures. That is why I sent my friend out to look at it. However he sent me back 23 pictures and a summary of the entire car that states otherwise. Plus we had a 2 hour phone conversation discussing everything it needed and how much it would cost to fix each item. We both agreed independently no more than $5K.

I then called the seller and attempted to discuss everything with him. However, every time I mentioned something, he told me how that was working before and it's probably just a fuse. Or when I had estimates on repairs, he kept telling me, you can get it fixed for a third of that. Do you know where I can get a complete front windshield for a 1956 Packard purchased, shipped, new weatherstripping, and installation of it all done for $300? I found the windshields alone for $400 to $500 and calculated $1000 for everything including installation. How about a driver's side window for $30? The fabric place he told me to go to quoted me $1800 for material alone without shipping. Yet he said I should be able to have the whole interior done for $2000 including sewing and installation.

I can understand your frustration with clueless buyers on Ebay. However, I have never even owned a new car or one without rust. If the only thing wrong with that Packard was some rust on the driveshaft, I wouldn't have negotiated anything. I would have sent my friend immediately back there with a check. I'd pay all speeding tickets and tell him to take the Buick with the 455 because the Honda won't get there fast enough.

My mistake would be granting too much leeway because I want one so bad.

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrpushbutton</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Dave@moon, are you assuming that he (or another streetrod builder) might go for it because it's a #4 needing lots of work? or am I reading your last post wrong? </div></div>

Given the choice between rodding or restoring the Studebaker (the alternatives Matt set up with the premise), superods' choice appears to be to take the money and run instead. Therefore the car is neither interesting enough to restore or fancy enough to rod.

For someone who's highly enamored of cars like this Studebaker (<span style="font-style: italic">and who'll most likely never afford personally anything like the choice Matt set up</span>), that's very difficult outlook to bear. It means the people making the decisions regarding the fate of the these objects often have little interest in them. I suspected all along that's the case having seen some of the extreme rareties and mint restorations that have been rodded in the recent past, but to have it so plainly spoken as if other alternatives are folly is upsetting. Especially <span style="text-decoration: underline">here</span>.

[Studemax]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">OK, Stude, here's a challenge for you:

I'll give you a car like this in #4 condition (complete, solid, but not road-worthy and cosmetically deteriorated):

1932 Studebaker President sedan (recognized as a Full Classic, and say, maybe one of about 50 extant).

I'll also give you $50,000 cash that you must spend on the car.What do you do? </div></div>

Take the cash, sell the car, then buy a cherry Four Seasons Roadster!

[LINC400]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tbirdman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are adding up what it would take to make a #5 car into a presentable car, you almost always are better buying the best car you can afford. I can imagine most Packards selling for $5K or $7K would need a lot of work. All that work cost $. </div></div>

I agree, except the most I can afford is $5K to $10K. And I am expecting it to need work. I am just hoping for one that I can drive and enjoy with a minimum of mechanical repairs while I save up for paint and interior.

I don't think this one was the one for me.

[Guest BillP]

Mr. LINC400, the best tactic i have learned in monkeying around with cars for over 50 years is patience. It may sound like an old joke, but it very frequently turns out that the week after you buy your long lusted after Gottahaveitmobile, you'll run across one (or more!) cheaper, better or closer. Why, let me tell you about the time I bought my...

Anyway, it looks like you're on the right track.

And furthermore, I like this thread idea of consolidating many topics into one long, many-faceted, widely ranging campfire discussion. I don't look at topic headings anymore, just come straight to 'resto rod?' for all the latest.

Spring is just around the corner!

[Matt Harwood]

Twitch,

Case in point:

http://forums.aaca.org/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/494980#Post494980

Asking how to modify a neat, older car of which there probably aren't many. No elitist bigots or authenticity Nazis there, myself included. Interesting, no?

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Studemax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Take the cash, sell the car, then buy a cherry Four Seasons Roadster! </div></div>

What part of <span style="font-style: italic">"you must spend the money on the car"</span> didn't you understand? I think you've just made Dave's point for him.

The point I was trying to make is whether you would take a car in which you (given your user name) might have some personal interest and rod it or restore it? For $50K, it could go either way, and I was trying to see if you would throw your hat in with the rodders or the purists. Are Packards OK and equivalent Studebakers are not? I was just trying to clarify your position. Is there some point at which you would care about such things? However, since you didn't answer the question, I can only wonder if you're merely here to stir up trouble by antagonizing the other contributors, or you're simply dodging the question because you don't want to be seen as a hypocrite.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For someone who's highly enamored of cars like this Studebaker (and who'll most likely never afford personally anything like the choice Matt set up), that's very difficult outlook to bear. It means the people making the decisions regarding the fate of the these objects often have little interest in them. I suspected all along that's the case having seen some of the extreme rareties and mint restorations that have been rodded in the recent past, but to have it so plainly spoken as if other alternatives are folly is upsetting. </div></div>

Agreed. Those ads for the Pierce-Arrow rods above suggest that are some people building these cars not because they truly want such cars, but because they see profit in them. "I don't want this car, but there's some sucker out there who will give me $100,000 for it at Barrett-Jackson." There's nothing wrong with making a buck, but this seems...<span style="font-style: italic">uncomfortable</span> to me.

Here's an analogy: Imagine I was making my living by creating those horrific elephant-foot wastebaskets. (To paraphrase Twitch) I don't see the elephants daily and derive no personal benefit from their existence, so why should I care about maiming them? Nobody even knows how many there are--surely there are plenty to keep the herds viable even if I cut the feet off of some of them. Those rich elitist bastards who want to protect them and who like looking at them on safari can go screw. Besides, the rotting carcasses I don't use feed the birds. Win-win-win right?

Ask the elephants. Feh.

[Studemax]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The point I was trying to make is whether you would take a car in which you (given your user name) might have some personal interest and rod it or restore it?</div></div>

Sorry, Matt - I didn't feel I had to hew to your idea of convention on the question.

So to answer that question - I'd restore it. I like both restored and rodded if done well.

I wouldn't take a very nice antique and rod it, but one in bad shape (rusty, bent, trashed, many parts lost)

- then yeah, I'd rather rod it.

Just because I'm not a purist doesn't mean I don't like a nicely restored antique.

I've owned, enjoyed, and built both.

I just can't help messing with holier-than-thou types, whether in the Stude, Packard, or whatever club.

Life is short, and there's room for everybody - elitist snobs and rodders alike.

Live, and let live, Matt.

[Matt Harwood]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Studemax</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Sorry, Matt - I didn't feel I had to hew to your idea of convention on the question. </div></div>

It was just a hypothetical. Easy there, Killer.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So to answer that question - I'd restore it. I like both restored and rodded if done well.

I wouldn't take a very nice antique and rod it, but one in bad shape (rusty, bent, trashed, many parts lost)

- then yeah, I'd rather rod it.</div></div>

I'm 100% in agreement with you there. If there are pieces on a car that are made of unobtainium and the choice is crusher or rod, I'm going to rod it, too. I have a fine appreciation of well-built rods, and my point all along has been that the whole idea of building a rod is to showcase craftsmanship and innovation. Craftsmanship and creativity I respect a great deal regardless of what kind of vehicle to which it is applied. But throwing a Chevy motor in any car, let alone a Full Classic, doesn't demonstrate that very well. But, as you point out, that's just me, and there are plenty of guys who think otherwise. If I were a rodder, though, I'd sure get sick of seeing row after row of red '32 Ford roadster highboys with LT1 engines and 4L60 transmissions coupled to a Ford 9" with white leather tuck-and-roll upholstery. I also think this is why the recent resurgence of the "traditional" rod is so cool--it's all about doing something nobody else has done without spending a fortune and building a "catalog rod." Creativity for its own sake is the name of that game. <span style="font-style: italic"> This </span>is a cool Packard rod. Creative and unique because of its inherent "Packardness".

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because I'm not a purist doesn't mean I don't like a nicely restored antique.

I've owned, enjoyed, and built both.

I just can't help messing with holier-than-thou types, whether in the Stude, Packard, or whatever club.</div></div>

I don't think anyone here is a "holier-than-thou type" and "messing" with those you perceive as such merely to amuse yourself is just sh*tty. We're passionate, but I don't think superods, for example, is a bad person because we disagree about cars. I probably will take him up on his offer to visit just to see some old Packards without their clothes on. Whatever our differences, I'll bet he's a good resource to know if you <span style="font-style: italic">are</span> restoring Packards instead of rodding them. And he deserves kudos for keeping a level head when I was getting all worked up. I tend to do that sometimes.

I've said several times that I won't tell anybody what to do with their cars and their money. I have, however, expressed my bitter disappointment in the loss of what many believe to be significant cars. I've also wondered about the point of doing such things (related to creativity and the whole idea of owning and driving an old car), and whether there are viable alternatives that could make everyone happy. Superod's examination of why fiberglass Packards are a big mountain to climb is a good point from which I learned a great deal.

I suppose there's a subtlety in my point of view, but the "elitist snobs" as well as superods seem to understand the finer points of what we're talking about, while the rest seem to feel as if they're under unreasonable attack. They're not. As I said, stirring the pot isn't helpful.

Original cars aren't inherently unreliable, uncomfortable or fragile. Rods aren't inherently interesting nor nostalgic to drive. They each have their merits and supporters, as well as detractors (well, I guess I can't think of anybody who would be upset about someone restoring a car). I yearn to own one of these cars, and the only way I'm going to get one is a rough one that needs restoration. But many of those are vanishing and apparently getting cut up to the point of no return. I'm going to personally miss them.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Life is short, and there's room for everybody - elitist snobs and rodders alike.

Live, and let live, Matt.</div></div>

Now here you go suggesting that everyone is either a rodder or an elitist snob, black or white, good and bad, with nothing in-between. So which are you based on what you said above? Glass houses and all...

None of us is going to convince anybody else of anything here. My forehead's bleeding and the tree I'm banging it against has fallen down. With the death of Misc. Chat, I figured I was done being passionate around here. I guess not. I am truly sorry about that, guys--I don't want to be known as a jack*ss, just a guy who loves old cars like the rest of you. Let's talk shop instead.

Out.

[Guest imported_Speedster]

I've found that there is 'No such thing' as Unobtainable parts, when trying to Restore a Classic. I've started with a rusted out pile of Junk and built a complete car from it.

It's surprizing how many parts can be repaired and built using simple hand tools. Of course there are some determination and mechanical skill needed, but I think many people have that ability, if they would only Try.

And the parts that can't be hand-made or found on the Internet, there's always a machine shop, that can make them for you.

It takes hard work or money and I always prefer spending the time and effort when possible.

So, I don't consider that a good excuse for letting a classic being destroyed even more, by making a resto-rod, from it's remains. Any automobile can be restored, if you really Want to. But If you don't Want to, that doesn't really make you a Bad person either, only a Less Skilled person. LOL Sorry Aboout that!