tjthorson Posted October 8, 2007 Share Posted October 8, 2007 I had about an hour free today to work on the Riv. I started by trying to remove the spark plug wires which all promptly just cracked and crumbled in my hands. I sprayed all the plug area with aerokroil to try to free up the rusty plugs that have been in there for 35 years. The plugs all came out without event, and I took some of my boat fogging oil and sprayed down all the cylinders and put the plugs back in to seal it up. I then removed the carb - the fuel line and each vacuum line cracked when i touched them. I also pulled the valve covers. I took some pics of that before I oiled the valvetrain down as well...The waking up of this beast is going slow - but I am bust travelling with work, and have another car in front of it that I have to reinstall the engine on it first...And winter is coming. On another note - I got the seats and cushions from Clarks Corvairs - and I must say I am impressed. nearly a perfect color match - and going from the leather to this vinyl- its going to look awesome. Some valvetrain pics.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0ckstarr Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Good luck getting it running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nooshinjohn Posted October 13, 2007 Share Posted October 13, 2007 I second the notion of good luck!!! I have been exactly where you are at this very moment about 4 years ago in waking up a car from 25 years of sleep. I have just a couple suggestions that may make your effort more worthwhile. First a couple questions. are you going to fully restore the car or just build a driver? With that answered there are a couple ways to go. If you intend to keep the car as a driver, i would pull the intake and valley pan so that you can get a peek at the camshaft. My car was worn badly at the #5 intake/exhaust lobes. but all i wanted at the time was a driver, so i replaced all the lifters, after sitting as long as your car has, i would replace these even before trying to fire it up. if you plan to fully restore the car i would option for a complete rebuild at this time rather than try to run it. A 64 i had tossed a connecting rod after running for only 10 minutes or so after sitting 15 years and the block had to be tossed.hope this helps and if you need anything just ask!john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted October 22, 2007 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 I appreciate the info. It is going to be a driver... I have a further update - I changed the oil and filter today, pulled the distributor and primed the oil pump until the battery died on my drill. It was oiling nicely - and the clean oil was coming out the rockers. I threw a battery in - and got lights on the dash! I turn of the key and ..... clunk. It was locked up tight. i did notice the starter bumped it a little though. So - after about 20 of those bumps of the starter - it was cranking and oiling itself (I still have the valve covers off). i still have a long way to go to actually fire it - new fuel pump, carb rebuild - and it has no spark. I have voltage at the coil - but the points are burned pretty badly - so I am thinking about this:http://www.lectriclimited.com/breakerless_se.htmAnyone have experience with those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Before spending money on a afermarket part, got to your local autoparts store and get a set of points for the car. They are still avaliable and cheap.Oil you cylinders before cranking it a lot more, it will help turn the car over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted October 22, 2007 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 Thanks Bill.... I had them oiled up two weeks ago - I used a can of fogging oil from my boat - pulled the plugs and filled up the cylinders with oil. When I was bumping the starter to get it to spin, the plugs were out - to spit out any excess oil.Its cranking pretty smooth - something has a squeak - sounds like the alternator bearings.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 Well. The weather is getting colder and it wake up of the 401 is a little frustrating. We have spark now, and I cleaned up the carb and replaced the fuel pump. The fuel tank stinks horribly and is going to have to be pulled. We are also going to have to run a new fuel line from the tank forward because its plugged up tight. 150lbs compressed air didnt clean it.So, I have the suction line running into a gas can on the ground - we had hoped to have it running before we close it up for the winter.Its cranking nicely - but a little slow. Its really tight - the battery cables even get warm while cranking. But - its not running. We have gotten it to sputter some - but nothing real convincing. I cant find my compression tester, so I ordered one up. I am a little worried maybe the rings are stuck and the compression is blowing by....Anything else you can think of I may be missing?On a lighter note - the wonderbar radio works, so does the power antenna. Just giving an update.I know the drill. Spark, fuel, compression. I have verified 2 of those - when the compression tester comes in the mail, Ill let you know what we find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 When I was trying to get my 64 to start after 20 + years, I fed gas from a can right into the carb feed line. Bypassed the fuel pump just in case.Also check your belts and pullys up front, my waterpump was shot and nothing was turning. That could explain the tightness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rlbleeker Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Do you have fuel in the carb? It can take a long time to suck fuel for the tank (or a can) particularly if it's cranking slow. With the air cleaner off look down the primaries and open the throttle, you should see gas squirting. If not, you can pour a "small" (a tablespoon or two) amount of gas down the carb. I use a water bottle with a pop top. Hold the throttle open a bit and give it a crank. If you have spark and compression it should fire and run for 2-5 seconds. Keep the gas bottle well away from the car and keep your face away from the carb when cranking because they can flash out the carb. Repeat a few times and it should have pulled fuel to the carb. If you already see gas in the carb, you have another problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 i took the carb apart, and made sure all the jets and needles were clean. I filled the carb with fuel, and installed a new fuel pump (suction line to a gas can) and a clear plastic fuel filter. I pump is pumping, the accelerator pump is squirting.I am fearful that after sitting so long the rings are stuck and i have low compression (or unsealed valves) and thats why it wont start. I have a compression tester coming, so I will report back when it shows.It definitely cranks faster with the plugs out - so I am hopeful there is some compression there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rlbleeker Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 A compression test is a good idea. In my experience they will start and run even with stuck rings, they just smoke and foul plugs. Valves are another story, are they all opening and closing? I bought a '64 that had been parked in a closed garage for 25 years. The guy I bought it from had started it, and it ran terrible. When I pulled the valve covers, there were several bent push rods. Every exhaust valve that was open while it sat was rust that way, one so bad the stem was nearly rusted through. What do the plugs look like after you have been cranking it? Are they wet? Do they smell like gas? Remember these things (or at least mine) are cold blooded. When it's cold I have to pump my '63 about 5 times to get it to fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted November 5, 2007 Author Share Posted November 5, 2007 i have the valve covers off - I had pulled the distributor and primed the oil pump for a good 10 minutes before I attempted to fire it.The plugs do get wet - I have blown them off and cranked it to dry it out a few different times along the way. This thing cranks so tight though, we kill the battery after about 10-15 seconds of cranking. All the valvetrain appears to be moving visually at least.... Ill run the compression test - it should tell me more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rlbleeker Posted November 5, 2007 Share Posted November 5, 2007 Do you have a big enough socket to put on the crank bolt to see just how much force is require to turn it? Is it a good battery and cables? A full charge shoud crank it for several minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted November 6, 2007 Author Share Posted November 6, 2007 heh. I tried a 2 foot breaker bar and couldnt budge it. I actually started tightening the balancer bolt - after about a quarter of a turn of the bolt i stopped because I didnt want to break it off.I was attributing it to sitting for 30+ years and figured once it fires it will loosen back up. But, we have done lots of cranking and the oil pump is pumping lots of oil up top....You would have thought it would be loosened up by now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go Poly Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tjthorson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">heh. I tried a 2 foot breaker bar and couldnt budge it. I actually started tightening the balancer bolt - after about a quarter of a turn of the bolt i stopped because I didnt want to break it off.I was attributing it to sitting for 30+ years and figured once it fires it will loosen back up. But, we have done lots of cranking and the oil pump is pumping lots of oil up top....You would have thought it would be loosened up by now.... </div></div>I would seriously consider pulling the engine and tearing it down....the torque you are probably exerting with a 2 foot breaker bar is at least 100 ft-lbs. It should take anywhere from 15 to 30 ft-lbs w/o the plugs installed. At least that is my experience.Good luck.Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rlbleeker Posted November 6, 2007 Share Posted November 6, 2007 It should turn easy with a 2 foot breaker. Sounds like you may have some rust in the cylinders. You could try more oil and cranking, but I wouldn't be optimistic that it would clean up if you do get it to run. You may want to pull a head and see what you are dealing with. Don't ruin your starter trying to crank it too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 I did a compression test - I have 75lbs in each cylinder +/- 5lbs. I would have thought that would be enough start, although low. I figured we might as well pull it, i dont want to trash it if it just needs a refresh.Well, since the plan was to pull this engine in the spring, I figured I would oil it up for the winter for storage. I pulled each plug and shot about 10 seconds of fogging oil into each cylinder. I thought I would give it a crank to distribute the oil - and wouldnt you know it - it RAN! For about 10 seconds. I had pulled my gas can out from under the car and put it away for the winter, so the pump had nothing to suction from - and it ran the carb dry. Smoke was everywhere - but it did run.And now I am back to slow, nonstarting cranking.I am guessing the fogging oil brought the compression up enough to start it? i think we just need to pull it. So, it will sit until spring, unless we have a warm december, then I might be able to pull it out. Should be pretty easy.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rlbleeker Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 Not sure what the compression ratio is in that motor, but you should have at least 120lbs. Pulling it is probably the best plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RivNut Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 The compression ratio for a 1963 Riv with the 401 4bbl (Wildcat 445) is 10.25:1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim63riv Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Todd,You need to have about 90 PSI for a cylinder to fire. A compression test is not accurate if the cranking speed is not above about 250 RPM. The fact that the engine started is a good sign, I would try to get it to run to do some diagnosis before I would pull it out of the car. I guy can invest A LOT of money rebuilding something that might just need some minor repairs to be perfectly serviceable. Do what you decide is best for you, just know that there are options!Take Care,Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rlbleeker Posted November 13, 2007 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Depending on how much oil you put in you could have increased compression by aiding the rings in sealing, or by mechanically increasing compression. Or it could be a coincidence that it started then. If your option is to pull it, you don't really have anything to lose in trying to get it running a few more times and seeing if it loosens up. You could try the oil thing again, or starting fluid. I wouldn't be real optimistic that it will turn out to be a reliable motor though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim63riv Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Guys,I don't know which I would feel more secure and happy with, an original Nailhead in need of some TLC or a freshly rebuilt one that was done by someone other than a Nailhead "Guru!" There are no ticking time bombs in a Nailhead, they are a strong, reliable engine. I have heard way too many horror stories about huge dollars spent and ending up with a pile of expensive, trashed components! Dan Lapham who visits here and V8 Buick has woke up quite a few "Nails" over the years and has had very good results. I would fire it up, listen for noises that won't go away and diagnose from there, but to each there own! Just my 2 cents!Tim McCluskey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjthorson Posted November 14, 2007 Author Share Posted November 14, 2007 Well.... At this point since I know it at least ran some, I am going to pull it. I usually do my own assembly on engines, I usually sub out the heads and any block work. Since this one only has 67K on it - and was only driven about 9 years, I figure its 67 and not 167. Ill know when I tear it down. I ll check the valves as well. I am hoping to just hone it, fresh rings, seals, and gaskets and a reassemble....If you look at the pictures there is some kind of grey goop all over this thing. Its not oil sludge - it almost looks like a graphite or (lead??) Initially I panicked thinking it was bearing material - but its EVERYWHERE, coating all the valvetrain, inside the drain plug. Did they used to have some "snake-oil" liquid lead people would use back then in the 60s?But, once I get done with it, I know it will be solid and reliable, so its worth it. Nothing was knocking or clanking, so Ill just mic everything and make sure its in spec.Does anyone have a sheet of specs (tolerances, torque values, etc?) Can we get that through the ROA? I havent looked around the members section yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Stoneberg Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 You need to pick up a shop manual for all the specs and Torques. I havce seen a coupl of 64's on Ebay, I can imagine that there would not be a 63 too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rlbleeker Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 I don't know what causes the gray sludge, but I've pulled quite a few valve covers on '60 buicks and they've all have it, so I wouldn't worry about that. I've never been inclined to rebuild a decent motor just for piece of mind, like Tim, I've seen rebuilds that just don't last. What would bother me with this one is you can't turn it over with a breaker bar. Something isn't right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nooshinjohn Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 the grey sludge you refer to is lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now