85 307 parts

[sosuzguy]

I'm trying to correct some driveability problems. I need to try and find the "Idle Load Compensator" possibly the part number is 17111104, Differential vacuum delay valve part number on the part is 22526610 and a Vacuum regulator valve part number on the part is 22522518. The reason I say "part number on the part" because when I've went to aftermarket part stores and gave them the part numbers they came up with pictures of other parts that are part of the carb. The Buick dealership says these parts are discontinued, but they can order the last two through vintage parts for me. However they don't have a picture to see if it's the right part or not. Supposedly if they order it from Vintage they won't know how much it will cost or what it is till they get it and then I'll be obligated to buy it whether it's correct or not.

ALSO: if any of you have the 79 to 85 Riv's that have a rattle in the rear wheel area while driving, more than likely it is the strut spring on the parking break strut. I thought that crazy rattle was going to drive me crazy looking for it.

Recently my 85 Riv decided to not pass emissions, although it's done fine all previous years with a bottle of RXP. I finally gave in, bought at least $100 of parts, then applied for a low mileage waver. Only two more years then it's just saftey inspections.

I am amazed that most "states" require cars to pass emissions testing till they are way into their 20's, for Texas it's 25 years, but most of the manufacturers discontinued the majority of the parts required to make the cars pass emissions. A lot of them are not being reproduced at this time either.

Kind of makes you wonder who car is parked next door!!!

[tim63riv]

Jayson,

What were your numbers for emissions? Never been a fan of "tune up" in a bottle, usually better to fix the root cause of the problem.

Tim

[sosuzguy]

Tim these are the numbers.

High speed Low speed

HC 137-321 140-319

CO .87-6.49 .79-7.43

The first set 137, is the standard, the second is what I tested at. I'll also email you something that will tell this story better and fast than I can type it.

[tim63riv]

Jayson,

Hope you got my email, your car is running too rich. Has to be the carb or a problem with the evaporative system sucking fuel out of the tank. There is a vacuum line that runs from the carb to the vapor canister, see if the line is wet inside from gasoline. If it is, the diaphram on the canister valve is bad.

Tim

[NTX5467]

If the canister doesn't have the valve on it, it can be "laying" inline between the canister and the carb. When it goes bad, including the wetness inside of the vacuum line, it can make the carb run "full rich" and fog mosquitoes out the tail pipe regardless of what tune-up stuff you might do (including a carb rebuild). Replacing the "Canister Control Valve" fixes it every time.

Of course, getting the carbon out of the nooks and crannies of the combustion chamber can't hurt either. Ed Wallace used to promote RXP heavily (you can get it at O'Reilly's for about $7.00 a little bottle) on his radio show . . . and a friend that ran the City of Fort Worth garage verified that it worked as described (with emissions tests of their fleet), so Ed claimed back then. The carbon can be places for the hydrocarbons to "hide", so getting rid of it can help things be cleaner.

Of course, the "on the road decarbon" of putting the car on the road for several hours at cruising speed helps too, but with the current cost of gas, "the bottle" might be more economical. Still, it's all going to take some time to work, so you might as well get "the bottle" (of whatever type of cleaner) and hit the road for a several hours.

Also, what about the catalytic converter? How "fresh" is it? Other tune-up maintenance items? AND a fresh oil and filter change, with a fully warmed-up engine (about 15 minutes of freeway run-time) are other helps in that situation, too.

Just some thougths,

NTX5467

[sosuzguy]

Yes Tim I got your email, thanks, and I replied back.

John, the car has had almost every thing replaced emission wise. Yes the cata convert is just about 3 years old and probably has less than 12k miles on it. Car has new plugs, wires, oil, filters.....

I will check the vacuum lines from the canister.

[ixlar8]

I had carb problems for years and had to replace the valve all the time! Until last year when Illinois modified the epa law, you could apply for an exemption from testing. A letter from my insurance company confirming limited miles per year and fill out a form and you get exempt. However, now Illinois has negated any emission testing for auto older than 15 years- IF they have passed their last emissions testing. Illinois figures that cars that old are not a major percentage of the emissions population, and it cost too much to process high emissions paperwork for older cars- so they exempt them.

[sosuzguy]

So when you guys are saying canister valve I guess your talking about the canister control valve? Any of you had any problems with the TVS switch going bad?

I know on the hose from the CCV to the carb bowl it has clamps on it.

Can you tell me what the name is of the pliers I will need to get the reverse clip back on the hose tight? I need to go get one but don't know what to ask for.

Thanks

[tim63riv]

Jayson,

I use a pliers that looks like a cross between a regular pliers and a side cutter, I think they are called "lineman's pliers". They are very wide at the tip, almost a half inch! They do a good job of releasing the tension on the spring steel type clamps so you can move them. I'll answer you back off line about the scan tool class!

Take Care,

Tim

[NTX5467]

I believe those clamps are called "corbin clamps". I don't think they are reuseable as they are too soft of a metal--if it's the ones I'm thinking about where you squeeze them together near where they contact the hose and leave the open circle above where they are squeezed together.

If you have the ones that are spring-loaded, where the clamp divides into three sections, two outer and one middle, with the two outer tangs being one "side" of the clamp and the middle being the other "side" of the clamp, with prominent tangs AND color coded . . . I've found that the special pliers for the heavy gauge wire hose clamps can work well. But some normal pliers which can separate farther apart than normal can work too--have to use them at a 90 degree angle to the pipe being clamped rather than trying to use them parallel to the pipe being clamped . . . AND holding your mouth right sometimes.

GM does have some "invisible" hose clamps . . . I found some in stock today. The normal screw hose clamp sized for a normal fuel line, but "black" rather than natural silver.

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[NTX5467]

Jayson, if you can find a auto supply with an illustrated emissions parts catalog (I know that ACDelco had one several years ago, which listed not only what each vehicle required but ALSO had pictures of each valve in the illustratons section), then you can probably find the TVS items you need. Generally, the number cast on the side of the part or in the top section of it was the GM part number at that time. That ACDelco catalog is a wealth of information, but few people know about it. An ACDelco-connected auto supply can get one from their jobber distributor OR you might go into ACDelco TechConnect and possibly order one yourself.

In some cases, the terminology in the GMParts database did not really match what the owner thought he had, so pictures and the list DID help . . . at least for me dealing with them.

Although those parts might have been discontinued at the GM dealership level, I suspect you can still get them via ACDelco or similar aftermarket sources. That's been the observation for a long time. Yet getting the correct GM numbers to track things with is important (whether as the GM part number or the part number stamped/cast into the item, plus its color code).

In reality, if everything's working as designed, it should pass the tests even at elevated vehicle mileages.

You might seek out an "entrenched" Buick parts department who still has some paper books stashed back under the counter. The earlier-printing books might have better illustrations in them. The issue with "Vintage Parts" would be the same as if you ordered the parts yourself from a distant dealership, who you found to have the part via PartsVoice . . . you order it, it's yours . . . no returns. Plus, you never know if they have a part with a part number change on it (which CAN be flaky and incorrect for the part) or if it was "demoed" on a customer's vehicle and returned to the parts department for credit on the particular repair order . . . which can generate it's own "issues" in that scenario, as to if the part returned was used or just gently and temporarily used to see if it would fix the problem. Just the nature of the situation, unfortunately.

I don't recall what the ILC might be, unless it's idle speed related to adjust the idle speed to compensate for the use of the a/c compressor or not . . . like a vacuum-controlled throttle kicker? I don't know why that would cause it to not pass emissions, though, unless it was vacuum operated and the diaphram had a leak in it . . . if it works that way. We all know there are waaayyyyy too many vacuum lines on that engine!

Just some thoughts,

NTX5467

[sosuzguy]

I will take pictures of the clamps maybe later today to show. I'm going to look around for some of the pliers today.

ILC is the Idle load compensator. No it doesn't have anything to do with passing emissions, that's already been taken care of for the next year, but I'm trying to get the car to keep from dying when it's idling with the AC on and you put a load on the engine. Little things like I found the THERMAC was stuck closed off to fresh/cooler air at all times, what a difference it make when I got that taken care of. My ILC is not retracting and extending like it should, unless Buicks idea of retracting and extending is lay down and stand up, I must have a bad diaphram inside the ILC. I just had the carb rebuilt and it's been taken back twice. The shop keeps saying, everything's been set to specs. But I know they have not taking the driveability section of the SM and checked it all out, so I'm taking care of that myself. Provided the carb was rebuilt properly and all the individual parts inside and on the carb were adjusting correctly after the rebuild, since I have no trouble codes stored in the computer the only thing I can do is follow the driveability section. There was no way I could of rebuilt the carb by myself at the time.

John: do you have a good suggestion for someone here locally who would know how to check and make sure the carb is adjusting correctly etc if I need a second opinion? Someone maybe through the BCA who's had great experience with a carb repair/rebuild? Of course everyone will tell you they can rebuild them but after the fact they always say they don't know why it's not running right.

[NTX5467]

I got a chance to look at the parts illustration for that particular carb this morning. It has A LOT of stuff in it!

In addition to the ILC, there's also what appears to be a stepper motor that will control the idle speed, "commanded" by the ECM. It should be by the throttle position transducer, or is near it in the illustration as it is for the ILC.

I did find something that I kind of suspected, but didn't remember for sure. Being an "electronic" QuadraJet, it has the Mixture Control Solenoid in it, plus some sort of Aneroid correction device in it. The MCS is a solenoid that controls the metering rods in the carb, taking the place of the prior engine-vacuum-controlled power piston. When they fail, when you take the top off of the car, there will be some little red "rings" of silicone in the float bowl (from the innards of the solenoid). It constantly cycles and positions the rods in the metering jets, "commanded" by the ECM. There is an adjustment using a Dwell Meter, but I suspect the solenoids are pre-set to be pretty close to the necessary value, but it's a reasonably simple check to make. To me, anytime you take the top off of one of those electronic QJets, you might as well plan on replacing the MCS as a matter of course, especially if there's a driveability or poor performance issue.

Tne Aneroid compensation is probably a variable air bleed of sorts to effect "altitude compensation" of the mixture. I haven't had any dealings with that part of the situation, just noticed it in there, too. If it's in there, it would be an integral part of the total fuel metering system in the carb.

Remember, too, that this particular Olds V-8 saw duty in Buicks and Oldsmobiles and probably some Pontiacs over the years (including FULL SIZE wagons!!!). It was a "one spec" motor using the VIN code "Y" in those uses. The DOWNSIDE to that motor is that it is pretty "lacking in reserve power", to put it nicely. But it gets some pretty good mpg running down the road (usually mid-20s have been reported).

Enjoy!

NTX5467

[tim63riv]

Willis,

Corbin clamps are round wire type, the Flat spring steel ones are the ones on the Riv's canister. The last time that I can remember GM using corbins was on some of the 78-79 Olds 350 Diesel injector return lines. Still have my Snap-On corbin clamp pliers in my tool box, along with my flexible point adjusting tool, my injector pump wrench, my carb adjusting tools . . . . dang, I must be getting old or something!

Tim

[Bill Stoneberg]

Mid 20's ??? You have to be kidding. I am lucky to 15 on my wagon.

I too have had problems with the electric carb and emissionss stuff. I am back chasing it again when it stops raining as my last tank was under 12.

[sosuzguy]

Too bad we can't all get together and some tuning and testing since we all have the same engines. I'm still waiting on the ILC from an aftermarkets parts store. I still have the Buick parts department looking for one. He said they replaced so many of them on 307's he still remembered the part number from memory! AMAZING He said a few years back they probably threw a bid load of them away! I guess unless someone comes up with an aftermarket version we can't turn the AC on unless we're going down the road.

[NTX5467]

Tim . . . obviously my terminology is a little incorrect on that deal, which I'll admit. The last clamps for the FI lines on the 6.5L TD were smaller and thinner versions of the flat steel clamps (two outer tangs and one inner tang opposite of the outer ones) and painted silver.

Yep, Bill, most everybody I knew who had the 307Y motor in cars usually got about 25 mpg on the highway (key word . . . "highway"), some lower 20s and some as high as 28 in an A-body Pontiac Bonneville--when the cars were new and newer. Still better than what a Chevy 305 would do as my '77 Camaro (with the factory 2bbl on it) when it was new was 20 with the a/c and 22 w/o on trips, with 17.5 being the normal day-to-day mileage. But . . . the Chevy had much more power than the Olds 307Y did on the highway, or most any other time, by observation.

I test drove a wagon similar to yours, Bill, for a customer after it'd had a carb rebuild (by a good rebuilder). I was appalled (sp) at the lack of power! I was going down the Interstate at 65mph and was going up a slight hill. I deployed the secondaries and just got "noise" regardless of throttle movement, kickdown or not. I thought "Dang, what about when it gets a load of people, their camping gear, and the jon boat on the back, headed to the hills for a camping weekend???" Be that as it may. I suspect that one of those motors might have a better chance without all of those vacuum lines and such under there! I know the Olds 350s ran much better, much less the 403s. Obviously, it needed a deeper gear in the rear axle!

Enjoy!

[NTX5467]

Jayson, I suspect there could be a somewhat simple throttle kicker set-up adapted to that QJet, as that's what has been used since the early 1970s . . . first as the idle speed anti-diesel solenoid and then as the solenoid which increased the idle speed when the a/c compressor was running. That's the way my '77 Camaro was set-up. You can still get those solenoids and brackets from Holley. But the parts illustration I looked at showed what appeared to be a stepper motor for that function on the carb, similar to the Idle Speed Control (which controls air flow through a bypass air circuit) on the modern throttle bodys for port FI engines, but openning the main throttle plates rather than how it works on the newer engines. I'm not sure how the ILC interfaces with the stepper motor, though, or if one is the backup for the other.

Where is the "base idle speed" adjusted on that carb? Might need to manually adjust it up a little, just like the old days? There's got to be a way to get it "under control" . . .

Just some thougths,

NTX5467