Anti- Freeze

Does anyone use anything other than Anti-Freeze in there radiator ? Is there really a big difference in the top brands

and Meijer brand ?

Bob, I've been told that a 50/50 mix of antifreeze both lowers the freezing temperature and raises the boiling temperature, as well as containing Anti-Rust properties.

That said, I've also been told that pure distilled water actually cools better than a mix, and that adding Anti-Rust chemical to distilled water is better for our cars, as long as the cooling system is drained prior to freezing weather.

It is my experience that "Generic brands are made by the same companies for major discount chains, and that any differences are inconsequential. That said, most odf us feel that our vintage chariots are worth a "couple of bucks more - just in case".

Edited April 20, 2015 by Marty Roth (see edit history)

Our region interviewed one dedicated collector who uses

Evans Waterless Coolant in his vehicles. His collection is large

and includes some really interesting (and valuable) cars.

The waterless coolant has a big advantage in that, since it

contains no water, it won't cause rust. And he reports that

it has been in a couple of Bugattis for 15 years and is just

as clean as the day it went in.

Opinions vary as to the effectiveness of Evans coolant, especially its use in non pressurized systems.

Peak 50/50 mix is $5.97 here at the local Home Depot.

Not worth mixing it for that price.

Edited April 20, 2015 by bhclark
corrected brand (see edit history)

Back in the 60's I used methanol (methyl alcohol) as it was felt that if you did get a leak into the oil through a blown head gasket or whatever it wouldn't damage the babbit material the way the ethylene glycol did and was perhaps less prone to leakage (more prone to evaporation however). If you have ever had any of the new antifreeze in your oil for whatever the reason it makes a mess.

Not even sure that methanol is available anymore. Short forum from the Model "T" Club on the dangers of some modern anti-freeze.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/288065.html?1336871099

So , What i'm gathering it's probably better to fill with water and some kind of rust inhibitor like GUNK , than to take a chance on the "bad" stuff in Anti Freeze .

Bob, since you're in Michigan, you may not want to use water alone,

because you'll have to be extremely conscientious to drain your system

at the right time of the year. Who knows when that first freeze will occur?

And then when you get a nice day the following week, you can't take your

car on that last tour because everything has been drained.

If cold weather catches you by surprise, freezing water would likely

crack your engine block.

I would use anti-freeze. I don't know of any "bad" stuff in anti-freeze.

I use the 50/50 Prestone premix when I store my car for the winter. Once the temperature rises, I use distilled water with Water Wetter mixed in. With this combination, the car most certainly runs cooler.

Does anyone use anything other than Anti-Freeze in there radiator ? Is there really a big difference in the top brands

and Meijer brand ?

If you flush the cooling system and get all the crap out of it plain old antifreeze is as good a preservative as any.

It will go in clean and come out clean.

I use 50% distilled water and 50% full strength Prestone. Works fine. Never had a problem but I change it

if it looses it's bright color, thinking dirt is the enemy. I also find that the cars with a pressured systems get dirty faster.

So , What i'm gathering it's probably better to fill with water and some kind of rust inhibitor like GUNK , than to take a chance on the "bad" stuff in Anti Freeze .

What bad stuff are you referring to ? I have a large collection of antique cars and I use 50/50 mixture all year long and have never experienced a problem. Wayne

Bob there was a posting a few years ago about antifreeze look at item 18 here .http://forums.aaca.org/f115/coolant-283322.html

I use 50% distilled water and 50% full strength Prestone. Works fine.

I do the same, but I use the "distilled water" expelled by my home air condioner and run through a coffee filter.

Here is the post #18 referred to above.

Information was just published in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club Newsletter concerning the use of "extended life" antifreeze in cars over 10 years old.

In a nutshell--don't do it!

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should an "Extended Life" antifreeze, which utilizes Organic Additive Technology (OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT) as one of its chemicals, ever be used in our cars over 10 years old. It attacks the gaskets and gasket cements in our cars, causing major leaks and forcing ultra-expensive repairs. The "Silver Ghost Association" Rolls Royce people have documented massive cooling system failures apparently caused by this anti-freeze product.

Antifreeze that can be used safely in our cars uses older-fashioned Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) additive.

You cannot tell by the color of the antifreeze if it's safe to use. Also, the product may be labelled "Safe for Older Cars"--meaning 10 years old at most. Brands to be AVOIDED are all Prestone lines and Zerex's G-05 in the Gold-color container. Avoid any "extended-life" antifreeze. None of us wants to pull and rebuild our cars' engines.

Acceptable brands are Peak, Peak's HD Product "Sierra," and Zerex Original Green in the WHITE container.

If any of the OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT products are in your car the cooling system should promptly be drained--radiator and block-- the system flushed thoroughly, and IAT antifreeze installed. I am checking to see what's in my 37 Buick and 40 LaSalle. My Cord is drained and dry.

The article is in Newsletter LVII Number 8 2010. It will be posted on the ACDCLUB.ORG site in a few days in the newsletters section of the forum.

Just remember ethylene glycol anti-freeze is extremely toxic. It has a sweet taste so kids and animals will drink all they can. It can be fatal if ingested as it causes metabolic acidosis which leads to renal failure. Any suspected ingestion calls for immediate trip to the emergency room or emergency vet for your pet. So, keep containers out of reach of kids and safely dispose of empty containers. If any is spilled it should be cleaned up with some type of absorbent and then the contaminated area flushed with water to dilute any remaining as much as possible.

I noticed a lot of comments about pure distilled water ....Why not just use tap water?

Tap water has dissolved solids (mostly calcium carbonate that makes "hard water") that precipitates onto the radiator and engine internals in thermal cycling systems. However, distilled water is also much more corrosive. So using antifreeze with corrosion inhibitors is a must if you use distilled water.

I didn't see any mention of the corrosive nature of conventional anti-freeze. I understand it turns acidic. The softer metals like zinc are the most affected. Does anyone know if it is usage dependent or is it strictly a time dependent issue requiring regular changes of coolant. Typically manuals recommend 30,000 miles or three years changes and sometimes more often. What is the recommendation for a more occasional use vehicle? Does it matter if the water jacket is only cast iron? What about brass components? Aluminum components? I've experienced it corrode right through a zinc casting on a diesel engine.

I understand that antifreeze's anti-corrosion properties

diminish with time. For collector cars, I know some people

will put anti-corrosion additives in their older antifreeze occasionally

to eliminate that problem.

I see people are still using Preston and that is a big no no. Preston has been reformulated and will eat the solder joints copper rads and some of the gasket materials. When they say it is ok to use in older cars in Preston years that is only 10 years.

I've never used anything but the good "old fashioned" green ethylene glycol and nothing ever suffered any damage from IT or anything else.......

I've never used anything but the good "old fashioned" green ethylene glycol and nothing ever suffered any damage from IT or anything else.......

ethylene glycol is clear - don't go by what dye has been added

I was at Don Grahams shop and he showed me an early brass rad that was damaged by the wrong antifreeze.

Joe,

Do you know what kind he had in it ?

Don emailed me this article. I tried to email it to you but it will not load on this format

Bob Call and "Joe in Canada," thank you for posting

that important information on the types of anti-freeze.

With permission of the ACD Club, it should be reprinted

in some AACA publication.

I note some posters say they don't change anti-freeze just put in more anti-corrosion additive. There is a reason the manufactures recommend changing the anti-freeze at certain time intervals; primarily the additives break down and the pH of the solution changes. Low pH is conducive to corrosion of metals. Follow their instructions on the container and change at the recommended interval. Cheaper than repairing a leak or worse caused by spent anti-freeze.

The following is from a white paper on glycol based heating and cooling systems prepared by Johnson Services Inc.

Solution pH Testing

While high quality glycol solutions may last in excess of 20 years, hard use, improper maintenance or chemical contaminants will significantly shorten fluid life. Fluid pH serves as a good barometer for the condition of the glycol and is best measured with a field pH meter. This method is significantly more accurate than litmus paper tests.

Although glycol fluid pH is primarily a function of the corrosion inhibitor, and therefore, will vary from product to product, a few rules of thumb will be helpful in determining what constitutes proper pH. Most concentrated inhibited glycols have a pH in the 9.0 to 10.5 range. When diluted in a 30% to 50% solution, the pH falls to between 8.3 and 9.0. A pH reading below 8.0 indicates that a significant portion of the inhibitor has been depleted and that more inhibitor needs to be added. When the pH of the mixture falls below 7.0, most manufacturers recommend replacing the fluid. A pH value of less than seven indicates that oxidation of the glycol has occurred. The system should be drained and flushed before severe system damage occurs. For additional product specific information, contact the applicable chemical manufacturer.

System Flushing

Should the system require cleansing after removing old or damaged anti-freeze, flush the system with a heated 1-2% solution of trisodium phosphate for 2 to 4 hours, then drain and rinse thoroughly. Flushing the system prior to the initial introduction of the glycol solution is also highly recommended in order to remove excess pipe dope, cutting oils and solder flux.

Peak 50/50 mix is $5.97 here at the local Home Depot.

Not worth mixing it for that price.

I never use pre mix because the manufacturers use regular tap water with all the minerals ( you know all those minerals that build up get clogged in the radiator tubes ). Always use concentrate and mix with distilled water.

Flushing should be done with the heater cock open, thermostat and thermostat housing removed and the water cocks on the block open ( two if it's a V-8, V-6 ). Forward flushing first and then back flushing. It can be a mess and you are going to use a lot of tap water to do it correctly. Make sure ALL the tap water runs clean and is drained before closing up everything before refilling.

Edited April 24, 2015 by helfen (see edit history)

I just looked up the Meijer 50/50 brand and it says Phosphate-free

Silicate-free formula . It is a extended life .

I have been using the universal extended life stuff in my 60s cars for over 10 yrs. no issues.

Some have discussed pH. Do keep in mind that the less the pH value, the more the acidity (for some reason, even learn-ed people tend to mix this up no pun intended. I think it is worth mentioning also, that these additive packages are thought out with a great deal of testing and experiments. When oil or antifreeze are labelled with all those mystical Acronyms, etc., that these are not a light hearted whim (ASME required, if I remember the acronym properly). Point being, especially with aluminum blocks and/or heads, that certain packages are recommended accordingly. I once worked for an antifreeze recycling plant, and I might say that the ethylene glycol purified in this way is probably as pure, or more pure, than the original formulation! We basically re- "cracked" the dirty stuff

to yield a product of like new quality. It was distillled in a tall cracking column which was very sensitive to pressure and temperature (a real witches art, to do this). The fraction somewhat less clean was returned in a continuous loop like a bubble chamber. Hope someone gets a little something out of this mostly uselesss knowledge. One last -- I believe the owner's manuals, at least of the newer vintage vehicles, tell what grades of oil and antifreeze were originally recommended.

Ok I was at Don Grahams shop with a friend who is having a 1914 Buick 6 cyl. rad repaired. Also there was a 12 Mercer early Pierce and several Ford T rads he is working on among others. Anyway he has a rad core there that I took pictures of on what the wrong anti freeze does to your solder joints. It eats them look at the pictures and you will see.

Thanks for the pics Joe.

Sounds like a bunch of Advertising scare tactics to me. Like Teddy Roosevelt use to say.. Bully. Dandy Dave!

If anything Don is helping people save a repair job and he only repairs and no re & re. The Mercer rad is for Longfields a car that will be in the next Pebble Beach. Don did the Stuz Bearcat rad at P B last year and the Lozier at Amelia Island last month. So he is not new at doing the early rads or needs the work as he is semi retired and this just fills in time after doing old ras for over 45 years learning from his father.

Sounds like a bunch of Advertising scare tactics to me. Like Teddy Roosevelt use to say.. Bully. Dandy Dave!

I don't have any negative history with anti-freeze and if you maintain the system, you will probably be OK. In my house the agreement is I can have all the old cars I want and my wife collects dogs. Since I love each and everyone of these creatures, I switched to the non-toxic Low Tox antifreeze. I buy it at O Reilly's and pay twice as much as regular anti-freeze. I mix it 50-50 with distilled water. This is worth every penny because the dogs maybe hanging around and I don't have to worry about them injesting anything harmful.

Princess Auto sells Universal 50 /50 Premix , Antifreeze / Coolant made by Recochem . I called their technical department and was told this material was safe for our cars . After sending him the letter from the ACD Club which was posted earlier in this Thread . Below is his email to me if this helps any one . Make sure it has on the side label 16 - 424 .

Mark – product supplied by our company and marketed as Universal coolant as sold at most domestic retailers will meet this need. These are all IAT (inorganic acid technology) and not based on OAT. Effectively anything marketed as Long Life or Extended Life coolant is what you want to avoid for this particular application.

Canadian tire, Motomaster or Certified universal coolant is the perfect fit and what you are after.

Angelo Macchia

Product Manager

Consumer Division, Central Region

Tel.: 905 878-5544 ext: 23202

Fax: 905 864-3460

amacchia@recochem.com

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mark Gregory
16 - 424 added (see edit history)