Lesson Learned? Better off buying fully restored and functioning vs unrestored and 'functioning'

I was reading my wife's grandfathers diary from 1934. He had to tinker with the car several times in a 6 month period. Carburetor was mentioned specifically.

Have you reached out to the model A club's and forums? they likely know where to get good spark plugs.

If it sputters and runs for a bit, then dies. I suspect fuel more than spark. Is fuel flowing to the carb? is the choke operating and set? it likely will take fiddling with the choke and throttle until the engine is warm.

Don't lose hope. Read up, research carburetor and systems etc. you will learn and be able to enjoy the summer.

Mat

I suggest you keep the technical questions in the discussion in the Model A Forum below. You now have people giving technical suggestions in this discussion as well as the other one in the Model A Forum. This is going to just get more and more confusing to you trying to carry on two different conversations on the same topic.

For my last technical comment in this discussion, spark plugs are not your problem They would not cause it to run at first and then stop.

You really need to get a Bratton's Antique Auto Parts catalog to be able to easily find good quality Model A parts at a fair price. You can request a catalog through their website: http://www.brattons.com/prodtype.asp?PT_ID=81&strPageHistory=cat

I think 1 turn is good,,If you have friend,,maybee,,or do the starter

trick by hand again,,,,Put some gas in a squirt oil can

and squirt into air intake of carb,,,should run a bit longer

pouring from can or bottle too dangerous,,,and too much

gas also,,

My present thinking is its lean mixture ,,as in cloged

main jet,,OR is there any chance of water in the

float bowl or gastank,,,If you drain gas out of a line

onto a rag or paper towell the gas goes through and the

water stayes on top,dont go through,!!

The fact it goes put,put,,,says it should run

and you have SEEN it run,,so some small detail is lirking,,

Dont pull and hold choke,,,,,Pull all way,,say 3 compressions

then release to 1/2 way,,,so that the ingoing air will

carry the gas into the cylenders,,,

Hope this helps some,,,try this first before going to

treating for a flooded condition

Having the garden hose connected not a bad idea,,

Can someone suggest a parts house for A,,,,Don Lang

good for all T stuff,,,,Best of luck,,Ben

Yes. I sprayed gas in just like you said and it ran for 20 seconds. Not the two minutes we got out of it yesterday, and not the two seconds I was getting out of it before I did this trick.

Okay, what does this mean and what do I do now?

I guess those of us growing up in the 50's had the advantage of driving a lot of different vehicles, started in all kinds of different ways. I have not driven a Model "A" since 1971 but if I got in one tomorrow I would 1) turn on the gas 2) turn the key 3) move the left spark lever all the way up 4) move the right throttle lever down a couple of notches 5) turn the choke knob in and then back it off 3/4 of a turn 6) hit the starter button and pull the choke rod out a couple of quick times. When it started I would then reach over and advance the spark and move the throttle back to top position - no rush, I love the "ticka-ticka-ticka" of a Model "A" at idle. After a couple of minutes I would close the choke knob down a half turn (leaving it out a 1/4 of a turn or so).

If I missed something let me know ......

That's it.

I hold the choke up for about three engine revolutions, or "slurtp, slurp, slurp".

I don't own a model 'A'. I get paid to drive someone else's model 'A' ,, how cool is that?

The one time I had trouble cranking, the choke cable had come loose. And the choke was completely closed. I fixed with a piece of string. Until i could get back to the Garage

You may have gotten to much gas or not enough that's why it didn't run longer but since it ran for 20 seconds by spraying it in the carb you have pretty much eliminated the ignition system and been pointed to fuel supply. If It was my car I would pull the carb and clean that, check the tank, sediment bowl, and shutoff valve. I would leave the line unhooked from the carb and turn the valve on to see how the fuel supply is. If you get a nice even stream, then it's in the carb. As others said, it could just be a little speck of crud got in it.

When I took my 48 Plymouth out of storage this spring (I rebuilt the carb, replaced half the fuel line from the tank,the rubber line to the frame, removed and cleaned the tank, put an inline filter in, replaced the fuel pump, all last year) It ran wonderful when I put it away. This spring I got it out and it wouldn't come down to an idle without stalling. I had to take the carb off and clean it, there was some fine silt that must have gotten through the filter before I cleaned the tank that settled and plugged the jet in the idle circuit.

So a fully restored (mechanically) car can still have problems.

One thing that should be made clear,

thechoke knob has two functions;

mixture

&

choke

turning the knob, adjusts the mixture

pulling the knob out , chokes

pushing the knob opens the choke

Apologies if this was covered (I read through this but did not see this suggestion), but check to see if you could possibly have run out of gas. Sputtering, and a very short running period could be indiciative of being right at the bottom of the tank.

A Model A is a pretty basic car once you have learned the typical ignition and fuel delivery troublespots. I had one for a long time, drove it a lot and had a few issues. The Page book, which is from the era but I believe printed today and Les Andrew's books were my favorites. you really need a crank to properly time this car, if you cannot find TDC using the locating pin then I am not sure how you set up your timing. You do not need a lot of specialized tools, but you do need to be able to set the timing, etc. While the immediate issue sounds like fuel, if your engine is reasonably sound, I would address fuel delivery with a rebuild to the carburetor and renew all ignition components for optimum reliability, knowing you still may need to adjust things and perform some maintenance every so often.

If you find the Zenith carb too troublesome spend $50 for a good Tillotson core, and another $15 or less on the rebuild kit and your fuel delivery issues will go away. Virtually anyone can rebuild these carburetors. In fact, some A people will say the car doesn't sound quite right with a Tilly carb - it is too smooth.

That is a nice looking Model A - don't get discouaraged. Remember, if you use these cars, especially prewar cars, stuff will happen. The more stuff happens the more you will know about your car after you have addressed it.

Good luck with it and please post your outcome.

Is a running car really something you need to enjoy the hobby? Running or not they look the same? Find the electrical problem, fix it, and they run untill some other electrical thing dies. Bob

I am certain it is the carburetor now. Cleaned it up REAL good, ordered new gaskets today, and sprayed gas in where the air filter is and it ran. No such luck afterwards. I will try cleaning her up again.

Model As are simple but can be vexing. If it runs when you dump fuel in the carb, then dies, it's a definitely fuel delivery problem. And since it's gravity feed, there aren't all that many places where things can go wrong.

First thing to check: do you have gas in the tank? I have run out of gas in a Model A because the gas gauge would stick at about 1/4 tank. Looked like it had gas, but did not. Car sputtered to a halt with no warning. Filled it up, started and drove perfectly once again.

Second: Is the carburetor getting gas? Disconnect the fuel line at the carburetor and open the valve under the tank inside the car. If fuel flows, you know there's a problem inside the carb. If it does not flow, you know there's a problem with the tank, valve, or sediment bowl. I had a different Model A that had been sitting for a long time and the gas tank was filled with junk. It would drive just fine for a minute or two, then the crud in the tank would flow over the fuel line outlet in the bottom of the tank and clog it. The car would sputter to a halt, even though nothing would show up in the bulb. Disconnect the fuel line and nothing would come out. Blow through it and I could hear bubbles in the tank, and it would run fine again for a while after reconnecting the line. Model A tanks are hard to clean, being part of the cowl, but you can pull the valve out of the bottom and flush it a few times to get the big stuff out. Some guys have made a "stand pipe" inlet with a bit of fuel line atop the valve inside the tank so that the bottom 1-inch or so of gas is below the inlet level and no more crud can get in. You'll have about a gallon less capacity, but it's a long-term temporary fix until you can pull the tank and get it cleaned right.

Third: Check the sediment bowl. It may look clean, but take it apart and clean it anyway. The passages through the top portion can become clogged and may not show up as debris in the glass bowl. There's a screen in there that traps a lot of junk.

Fourth: The float is sticking in the carb and not letting fuel in. Take the carb apart--you will see instantly how it works and how bloody simple it is. I've had yet a third Model A vex me with a sticking float valve. New ones are about $5 from Snyder's and they install in about 45 seconds. Seriously, the carb is ridiculously simple. Look inside and its operation will be apparent. Move the float and see if it binds, especially when it contacts the float valve. Make sure the float valve opens with nothing more than gravity pulling on it.

Beyond that, there's no reason the car shouldn't run. It's running out of gas, and those are the main culprits. This is a relatively easy fix, don't worry!

Please take note,,,,,AT no time have we even mentioned

Using or

Buying a $1200 computer,, All tools used will fit

under the seat Have faith,,Ben

I'd remove the float and make sure it actually "floats" in a small pan of gasoline. If it's a cork float it could be sinking, or a hollow float may have developed a hole in it.

Okay, took said carburetor over to my Model A club friend, and he pulled it apart far more than I did , and replaced some parts, including the float, which was dented on the top part, where I did not notice it. Carburetor is definitely clean. Go to start it...and...okay, it runs every time, pretty much, but then quits after 20 - 30 seconds. Flow remains good, sediment bowl is CLEAN, GAV has been fiddles with from 3/4 to 1 1/4 turns open, idle mixture screw open 1 1/2 turns. So, much better, but still no cigar. Now what?

By the way, thank y'all for being so patient with me!

How to fix your car ought to be mandatory training in high school.

My guess is you have a fuel line blockage somewhere either in the tank or in the line from the tank to the shut off or shut off to sediment bowl. A friend had a Toyota truck that had a punch out in the gas tank that would float over the outlet and stop the vehicle. I had a 1950 Chevy truck that had some large pieces of rust in the tank that would do the same thing.

Is the standpipe in the tank ? If not you could have a similar problem.

Outside of that the only other thing I can think of is that perhaps you have a bad condensor - easy to check, just pull the wire from the coil to the distributor cap out of the cap and hold it 1/4 inch from the head. Crank the engine with the key on. You should get a bright blue spark .... if it is a weak yellow spark replace the condensor. It's a long shot but easy to check.

Did you try opening the fuel valve while the line was disconnected from the carb? I'm beginning to suspect crud in the tank...

Also, I can't imagine it's hard to source a crank for a Model A. Even if you have to go the Fleabay way...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Model-A-Ford-Engine-Crank-Starter-L-k-NICE-5-/131471855831?hash=item1e9c5550d7&vxp=mtr

Look at the end of the fuel line were it connects to the carb. Sometimes that section of line on the carb end it too long and hits the far end of the carb, causing a very low fuel flow. Hit it with a file and debur the inside of the line and see if the flow is better. Bob

I don't know if there is any portion of your fuel line that consists of rubber hose, but if there is, it may have collapsed internally.

Okay, some responses:

Flow was good before I had this problem, but we did shorten the line at the sediment bowl end, and no improvement. There is part of the line that is plastic and it cannot have collapsed internally, as flow is good. I drained the tank yet again, all clear, no sediment in sediment bowl or in portable gas tank, tried starting again, and, again she wants to start, but then fails after 10 or 15 seconds. Feel like if I could depress the accelerator about 3 inches beneath the floor boards, all would be okay. Drained 4 gallons of fuel, and, at the end, a slight trickle for 15 to 30 seconds, and then the end, but nothing worse than I would expect after draining an 11 gallon tank. I don't think anything is in the tank, and, if there was something, how ever would you get it out. Have no one here today to check out the coil, but I think we did this already and it was fine. I know the coil was disconnected and checked. My friend is pretty thorough, so I don't think we missed that.

Question: How ever does one get a car running, especially after sitting for 50 years and not even seen or known to run? It must be an amazing feat, as I cannot seem to make this work after a much shorter period of time.

OK......just thought of something.

Remove the carburetor drain plug and turn on the gas.

Gas should come out like crazy and keep on flowing.

It it doesn't there's trouble in the carb yet.

I got my Chrysler running great after determining that the engine was pretty much shot. It never ran but atleast would turn over by hand but had no compression. I took it all apart replaced the pistons, rings, rod bearings, honed the cylinders, cut the valves and seats, put new timing chain and gears in it, took the distributor out and put a new breaker plate and vacuum advance in it, split and blasted the intake and exhaust manifolds, rebuilt the carburetor, replaced the fuel pump and I'm sure a few other things. Put it together, (had it 180 degrees out for timing) wouldn't run. Finally got it figured out and it stumbled to life. That was the first engine I ever rebuilt. Runs great and starts awesome now. It's all trial and error. If I can take a motor apart that never ran and had no compression rebuild it and get it to run cool and reliably, you can get that A running.

You can eliminate the entire fuel system other than carb. by running a gas line from a 1 gallon jug on the cowl with a couple of fittings a few clamps and 4 foot of fuel hose.

Question: How ever does one get a car running, especially after sitting for 50 years and not even seen or known to run? It must be an amazing feat, as I cannot seem to make this work after a much shorter period of time.

I did this. As I stated earlier, I bought a complete 1937 Ford that had sat around for 50 years. It took two tries. I replaced the battery, the spark plugs, the spark plug wires, the coil, the distributor; most importantly--I removed the fuel tank, cleaned it thoroughly and restored it. I blew out all the fuel lines and replaced the fuel line from the firewall/dash to the fuel pump. I got it started and running.

I know it would be very difficult to remove the Model A fuel tank. Have you tried bypassing the fuel tank by running the car off of a gas can?

I have gotten several engines running that had been out of commission for up to 30 years. I did it by the method already outlined, 1) compression 2) ignition 3) carburetor. In some cases it was necessary to free up a stuck valve but not usually.

In most cases had the engine running within a couple of hours. Like yours they did not want to run at first but once I got them warmed up they smoothed out and ran well.

I don't know what is the matter in your case but suspect I could figure it out if I was there. Are there any experienced old car mechanics who could have a look?

As a last resort you could try starting it on a tow rope. Keep it motoring long enough to clear out the combustion chambers, oil up the rings and start to warm up.

I don't if this has been mentioned yet, but how old is the gasoline?

Crikey! What is so hard starting a simple as Model A engine, if it cranks there is only fuel, spark,timing and compression to check out. I guess it sounds easy to me and it is great that many members are trying help out, but !!

My bad experience was a mid seventies pristine but a complicated non starting fuel injected V12 XJC JAG.

Now this was a real plumbers' and auto electricians nightmare, never did get it running,nor could two Jag dealers and a so called Jag expert Finally sold it as is to an overseas UK buyer. Bliss !! My draining bank account was healthy again.

Ok what is the voltage at the coil , if to low engine will fire bout not run .2 Have you replaced the condenser , bad one will let engine start but not run .

3 Ignition timing out of order. bob

Hi All,

Some years ago we had a similar problem with a 28 Chev, everyone was convinced it was fuel starvation, car would start , run a short time and die. Problem was a faulty condensor, try fitting a new one and see if it cures your problem.

We also had one Model A that also had a similar problem, would start, run a short time and die, it was a faulty ignition switch. We bypassed the switch and drove it home.

Hope this helps

Regards

Viv

The ignition switch is a good tip. Had the same problem with my Plymouth. It would run great. Sometimes for hours or days. Idled wonderful drove great and then every now and then just die for no reason. Always started right up but you had to turn the switch off and back on. replaced it and never had that problem again.

Even a new part can be bad, so if it looks new, don't assume it's good unless you replaced it yourself recently and it performs better than the original..

Condensor is a good suggestion. Mine had ignition switch troubles also; if you want a truly dependable "A" and do not know the maintenance history my suggestion is assume all ignition components are old, and the fuel system needs to be completely gone through. here is what I fixed over time: Condensor; faulty ignition switch followed by poor quality repro with connectors that would ground out against the metal area behind the instrument panel (otherwise known as the gas tank!), polarity reversed on coil (car will run, will not put out as much juice to the plugs and correcting will result in a noticeable difference), timing, and fuel delivery. I rebuilt or replaced carby (Zenith and Tillotson, but that was more out of desire than need), fuel filter, distributor, all ignition components, ignition switch and cable to distributor. Luckily my gas tank was clean of debris and rust. In retrospect, if I was in your position, I would invest the time (an afternoon with help) and around $500 or less in all relevant parts and replace all of those components. Then chances are really, really good you will have a pretty dependable "A". Next up I would check the condition of the water pump, belts and hoses, I would want all that up to snuff as well if you want to use the car for longer distances than around the block. The books will tell you how to adjust steering and brakes, but I woud strongly suggest a enlisting a Model A-er close by to help you with these first time out.

With a "T" in pieces/parts in the garage, I get what Bob is saying about enjoying the experience whether the car is running or not, but I think you are a LOT closer to a dependable ride than you think, which can be a LOT of fun. Not sure how many prewar cars you have driven but it is worth the little extra work involved, IMHO to have the experience!

BTW, one comment on your thoughts about a restored vehicle. I troubleshot a lot on the old "A" over the years of ownership, but this 1970s restoration never left me stranded. I also had a beautiful '39 Packard bought ready to go that suffered a headgasket faillure on the third trip out, and a few minor instances later on including a condensor faillure just after dark where we decided a tow was the best bet. Bad car, not in my mind - nature of the beast with any old car, especially since the youngest prewar car is now 73 years old. Bottom line - if you use the car, expect a mechanical issue now and then, and if you don't, stuff breaks then as well. But it sounds like your making progress - hopefully you are encouraged! nice color combo, BTW - looks like a lot of fun to work on and drive!

Model A popout ignition switches are notorious trouble makers.

Gas is fresh, no crud! Gas comes pouring out of the carburetor when the plug is removed, obviously not the carburetor. Guess I had better get a new coil and condenser?

Someone else suggested I keep this to the Model A forum, but this started out as me questioning whether I should have just saved for another decade and gotten a perfect car. It 'evolved' into what it is. Maybe check out the Model A section and post responses there?

Try running a wire direct from the battery to the coil (called hot wiring) in case it is a bad switch. If that fixes it you know there is a bad switch or bad connection.

Didn't find it so i'm lirking,,Did my e//m get there

I'll try again

I'm more familiar w/pre 1932 cars than this computtr

Anythin' that gets turned on by hittin the stop button

is very pooorly designed,,i don t care,,,

at least it uses the Remmington std keyboard,,Haaaah

Cheers,,Ben,,,,Just think how much more you know

about this car now,,,,smile

Now that the gas situation seems to be clarified for SURE I'm with the condenser gang.

I doubt it's the coil.

Because the condenser is situated just above the exhaust manifold its life is dramatically shortened from the heat to which it is subjected....... :mad:

The downside is it's a special condenser and you have to practically gut the distributor to get at at....... :eek:

The old condensers are wax paper separating aluminum foil. I have found NOS ones that already have a minor short in them. Although this may be several kilohms it still means the point system does not completely open to let the coil completely discharge. It's like having a resistor in parallel with the condenser. Your spark will not contain as much heat as it was designed to have. And the minor short can turn into a major short over time from heat under the hood, stopping the engine as some of you have found. A better choice I find is to replace the old condensers with a modern polycarbonate or mylar capacitor with a value of around .25 mfd. and at least a breakdown voltage of 600 wvdc. A cap like this will last forever. Personal experience. These caps were not made before about 1980 so don't use any cap from the 50s or 60s,or even the 70s, as they were not much better than the old wax paper condensers. If your old condenser is mounted on the outside of your distributor and you're a stickler for authenticity, then gut an old metal condenser and mount it in place,lead and all, for appearances. I did this. Then mount the new capacitor inside the cap on the floor of the point's plate. Watch the faces of the points over time. If the one point starts to get a VERY large mound of metal on it and the other one starts to pit BADLY,then try a .22 mfd. Any cap will do but the circuit is actually a tuned tank like that used in the final stages of a radio transmitter. If it's 'in tune' then no point will erode worse than the other. However don't worry the condition is not fatal. It just uses up points faster than normal and but it takes a long time at the use we put our cars to to show the condition. But you can put the condenser problem to sleep once and for all. Guaranteed.

Agree on condensor as prime suspect, that said, a new high heat unit is literally a couple bucks for a Model A from any of the parts houses if you are not too hung up on authenticity, if I remember right they are pretty close in terms of looks. You will likely see immediate improvement. My reference to coil polarity was that is a common enough issue with these cars to warrent reference, I believe in the Andrews book as something to troubleshoot for, but I doubt it is the culprit here. Another potential ignition switch related problem that is not to do with the switch itself is the insertion of the armored ignition cable into the A distributor - you do not want to overtighten that or it will ground out in the distributor housing. That results in a non start generally, vs. the situation in this case of running but not sustaining.

Not sure I fully agree with carhartley on the condensor change out though, as I recall it was not at all hard to do despite the odd location.

I am still wondering though, how you have been able to time the car, as being badly out of time may not be the overall cause, but it will certainly be a contributing factor. I suppose you can locate the pin with someone bumping the engine but it seems like hand cranking it is much easier, and is a one person job if you are of average size and armspan.

I never had any problem turning a Model "A" engine with the fan belt .... one hand on each side and turn .... make sure the key is off or remove the coil wire .

Model A condenser is very easy to change, one screw on each side of housing. No need to disassemble distributor.

Any ideas where to get this condenser? I could try Bratton's, but anywhere locally that might have it or is it that specialized?

How do you get the distributor off? You have the distributor locking screw. What else. Les Andrews' Book doesn't show what else to remove. I cannot get the left facing screw out of the condenser. Sprayed Kroil in there and it still won't budge. NOTHING seems to be easy with this car.

I have learned a lot, and continue to struggle. Why don't they teach you how to fix your car in High School? Something useful and practical?

Re-reading: Where is the centre head stud nut?

Okay, pulled rotor off and I think I found the centre head stud nut. Backed this out completely and backed out the Distributor Locking Screw and the distributor fails to budge an inch....Ugghhh!