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1952 Roadmaster hardtop door issue--please help!


krinkov58

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The doors on my Roadmaster have been wacky since day one...they shut but then pop back out again (latched though) about 3/4" unless you REALLY put some muscle behind shutting the door...so today I decided to do a little work on the 4-gang window switch and after that; started messing with the driver side door. I removed the roof rail flipper and moved the front vent window regulator around just to make certain there wasn't an issue with the vent window being improperly adjusted and binding against the door frame. Does not appear to be a problem. Must have spent 5 hours adjusting the striker in, out, up, down and north-south-west before giving up. Anybody have ANY ideas or faced a similar problem? The doors are pretty straight with even spacing all around and I'd hate to have to start messing with their hinges. Here's a video:

https://youtu.be/4tRJvN6oaAY

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Well, it's either the latch in the door or the striker plate on the body. I have always been able to cure the problem by adjusting the location or the angle of the striker plate. Since that doesn't seem to be the fix for this car, maybe the latch/spring mechanism is weak and worn out? Or the striker plate is worn? Try moving the latch without closing the door (move it to the closed position with door open) and then try to push it back to the open position with a heavy screwdriver or similar tool. It should stay in the closed position regardless of how much pressure you put on it, otherwise replace the latch. How about the striker plate--do its surfaces show a lot of wear? Finding another used one to replace it with might be an easy cure.

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Pete, thanks for your reply. I did check the latch and it worked fine; the screwdriver would bend but it would not pop back into the open position. I checked the weatherseal as well and there is nothing out of the ordinary. I took a picture of my driver's side striker plate (on the right) and compared it with the photo of a striker which is on eBay right now...see attached. My striker has a definite area (I circled it in red) where it looks fairly worn, to the point where the metal is slightly distorted. Think this is enough to cause the door to latch and bounce back out as it's doing? Would be an easy replace. but I hate to just throw parts at a problem without thinking it through all the way.

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.....My striker has a definite area (I circled it in red) where it looks fairly worn, to the point where the metal is slightly distorted. Think this is enough to cause the door to latch and bounce back out as it's doing? Would be an easy replace. but I hate to just throw parts at a problem without thinking it through all the way.

A couple of items that I see in your video are suspect.....

#1. What is causing the driver's door to creak when you are closing it? Sounds like a possible hinge-bound problem, a bent pin, or an out-of-alignment hinge.

#2. What is causing the belt line moulding on both doors to be lower than the adjacent rear quarter's belt line moulding when the doors are in the closed position? It could be a possible sag in the frame or a sag in the doors (to the rear of the car) from worn body mounts or improper/lack of shims at the cowl (#1), #2 and/or #3 body mounts if the body was ever removed from the frame.

Did the previous owner ever take the doors off the body or the body off the frame? More info would help.

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

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Al, I have no idea why the door is creaking but it only does it when the door is almost shut, and not every time. Also I have zero clue what has been done to the car in the past...it's had paint recently is all I can tell you. The hinge screws have paint on them which tells me that the doors stayed on while the car was painted, and I don't think the body has been off of the frame for a paint job. Are you thinking the body came off with the door frames unsupported?

The lower stainless belt line is not very far out of alignment when the doors are properly closed and latched (which takes some muscle). See attached photos:

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Adam, the "pop-out" behavior is a sign of worn out door hinges? Honestly I've never had this problem before, although I have had plenty of problems with the rear door checks on both the 72R's I've owned in the past. What is the best way to check for sure, and fix?

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Guest 53 Roady

It looks like you may have a little hinge sag. Have someone lift and relax the door while you watch for movement between the hinge plates. A squirt of light oil on the pins between the hinge leaves should help the squeek. The book says no lube necessary here but after 63 years a little won't hurt. But these hinges are really stout. Let's not assume the worst.

To check the rubber effect you can remove a strike plate and see how hard it is to compress the rubber until the panels line up. I'm trying to put windows in our 53 and the door latches work great...but I have no rubber at all yet. Your doors are catching on the secondary safety level of the mechanism. It seems like there should be enough adjustment to get a secure latch even with fat rubber but the panels may not line up.

What a great color combination! Beautiful car.

Pat

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Pat, I am going to have somebody help me tomorrow with that. I did do the paper test on the passenger door today...it latches all the way a little better than the drivers door and it's striker was still installed...and there was no place on the door a sheet of paper could easily be withdrawn when closed in the door. The drivers door with the striker off and the flipper off would hang just fine and with no mis-alignment in the almost shut position, but would take some effort holding it that extra 3/4" in, fully closed.

And thank you, I do like the paint combination also!

Adam...full disclosure, I really have done nothing to the car other than pull the manifolds off the first week I had it (early Feb.) and send them off to be re-faced. Machine shop has yet to do it! But yesterday I did pull the door pad off and adjust the vent window and channel a little. Other than some electrical work I have not touched anything else. I did make a video of the door hinges, you can check that out here:

Watching the movie I did notice a wire binding slightly in the door where the hoses pass in on the drivers side, and the wind gasket on the passenger side door seems kind of crumpled and was squeaking while I moved the door open and closed. I am not sure if either would be enough to cause the problem.

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Guest 53 Roady

I'm still thinking its the rubber. For one thing the driver's hinge is normally much more worn than the passenger. The video is going to help me with my rubber install. I'd love if you showed all the rubber. Is it from Steele? I would be very careful when changing adjustments. The windows for instance have lots of adjustments and the book describes them. But the books assume you are replacing a part with the rest of the world in factory alignment. Starting with a pile of parts is a real puzzle.

Pat.

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Pat, I will take a video of the rubber tomorrow for you. Have no idea where it was sourced from, and looking closely at it, the application leaves something to be desired. The yellow adhesive was used, which I have never tried (I use the 3M black stuff always) and it looks like whoever did it just ran a bead of adhesive and slapped it on there. I usually spread it the width of the weatherstrip, pretty thin coat, and let it sit in room temp air for a few minutes until it gets sticky. Then apply it.

Yeah when I was adjusting the front vent frame, that conical washer was installed UNDER the adjusting stud like a regular washer...instead of over the conical fitting on the adjustment stud. So basically the stud was adjusting nothing, wasn't even contacting the frame. Rollers are missing as well. All of the side windows except the passenger door window are binding up and need adjustment, although I would not be surprised if the stainless bead from the fuzzies might be loose in a few spots and contributing to the binding. I just ordered a new set of 1/4 window leading edge seals from Steele and will doing doing the adjustments as soon as they arrive.

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Guest 53 Roady

Thank you very much. I look forward to consulting with you further. I will try to post some pics of where I'm at.

Pat

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Al, I have no idea why the door is creaking.....Are you thinking the body came off with the door frames unsupported?......

Not necessarily. Since you are experiencing essentially the same problem on both sides (both doors) at the same time, my thought was that if the body was removed from the frame and all new rubber mounts (easily seen by crawling under your car) were installed without additional shimming, that could create a sag in the doors toward the rear.....or another way of saying the cowl rubber mount could be higher than the rubber mounts under the door latch frame supports. If in fact the body was removed and the old existing rubber mounts were re-used, who's to say that they were replaced in their original locations? Your most recent post mentions that someone boogered-up some additional internal window parts so maybe a door swap-out with bad hinges or bad hinge alignment may have taken place.

You also mention "fairly worn" strikers.....hard for me to visualize rubber weather-stripping creating that much wear. Think of hiring out an experienced carpenter to come out to your house and repair a creaking non-latching door, he won't replace the strike plate and the lockset before he finds out what caused them to fail. It usually boils down to a door alignment within the opening issue as the result of a hinge problem possibly as a result of a sagging floor/header (in a house) or a sagging frame (on a car). Good luck.

Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

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Thank you for all of your replies...this is a really good forum. I do appreciate it.

John, that is a factory part to the best of my knowledge. It does not seem to be binding at all; there seems to be enough space for it to clear. However I will be taking it off and testing the door without weatherstripping.

Pat, here is that video as promised:

It should be viewed as a cautionary tale as to how NOT to apply weatherstripping although it might give you a clearer picture of the install. I noticed some really low areas on the bottom of the door which might be contributing, if not are the sole contributor, to the issue at hand. Weatherstrip has to come off regardless because it's mucked up for certain. Anybody got a solvent they use which won't damage the paint but will soften the yellow adhesive?

Al, I actually am watching a set of strikers on eBay right now. I just want to get this sorted out before swapping parts in case the strikers are not the problem, and are only being damaged because of a separate problem, I don't want to wreck a new set right off of the bat.

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Completely suspect. For several inches it doesn't even come close to touching the metal...from the angle of the video it does not look too bad but looking straight on it's very apparent that it is off. It's like that in the same area on the passenger door too. Going to buy a can of the 3M spray adhesive remover and some Goo Gone and remove the stripping on the bottom, clean the mating surfaces and re-install if possible. But I'm definitely going to test the door while it's off.

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OK, so I removed the bottom weatherstrip and that didn't really make anything better. But unfortunately my driver's side window is now cracked. It had a tiny crack at the base of the window you could barely see when I got it, which I attributed to poor alignment (it bogs in it's channel when raised, like it's twisted) but all this door slamming must have made it worse. So for the last 2 afternoons I have been working on the window alignment...which is an absolute pain. I'm no further along than 2 days ago honestly. Does anybody have a photo of the circled area in this photo from a 76R or 56R? My window frame has neither stop screws nor rollers which are illustrated here and I'd like to see where they go and what they look like.

Any window alignment tips appreciated. Starting from scratch with a fresh pair of eyes tomorrow morning. Plan is to get the window alignment right then get a new window from the auto glass place down the road. Very disappointing.

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Guest 53 Roady

Our car has no rollers either. I am trying to send you a pic of the stop screws. They are on little rectangular plates which help to hold down the inner glass run fuzzy strip. I don't have this strip under them right now. I spent all day jacking up the driver's door hinges and finally got it about as good as yours. My major problem is getting the front and rear windows to meet properly. If it rains I'll try again tomorrow. As far as alignment these stops just keep the window from coming up high enough to push and eventually break the screw at the top of the division channel where the rubber angles at the top of the vent window. I have been hanging and fitting house doors for 35 years and these make that all look simple. Some days the bear gets you.

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Edited by 53 Roady (see edit history)
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Thanks for those photos! I have none of that. My door doesn't even have the fuzzy strip (does that mount in some kind of channel?) nor the roller...no great mystery why the glass cracked I suppose. I have given up on the door for now and am still working on the windows although after about another 6 hours I got them dialed in fair. Took the frame out and I'm going to the glass place in the morning. I believe Car's Inc. sells some kind of roller (part # WR-315-1) so I'm going to look into that.

I ran into the front and rear window alignment problem also...yours look pretty good although mine look like that at the bottom. Not the top! I tried to angle the door window on the sash using the 2 bolts and that worked better but I still need the rear quarter to meet up maybe 1/2" at the very top. The pitch of the rear window is easy to set using the 2 adjustment studs but moving it forward AND having the rear of the quarter window seated well in the upper channel is hard. The pivot bolt is finicky as well...too tight, window movement suffers. Too loose, it moves rearward when closed. Still have not found that sweet spot but it's close.

The door window is what is giving me headaches. You have an adjustment stud and lock bolt for the vent frame, an adjustment stud for the division channel, an adjustment stud and a lock screw for the window track, and a adjustment screw under the latch for the rear channel. Wide margin for error.

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.....I ran into the front and rear window alignment problem also...yours look pretty good although mine look like that at the bottom. Not the top! I tried to angle the door window on the sash using the 2 bolts and that worked better but I still need the rear quarter to meet up maybe 1/2" at the very top.....

Here's an idea to keep in mind AFTER you are okay with your door fit, door latching, and belt line moulding alignment. Who knows, you might not have to do it but I thought I'd pass it along.

A Service Bulletin came out addressing elongating the three rear quarter window's hydraulic lift assembly attaching holes UPWARDS as a possible solution to your window gap problem. Pics are taken from the 1953 BUICK PRODUCT SERVICE BULLETINS, abridged edition.

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Al Malachowski

BCA #8965

"500 Miles West of Flint"

Edited by 1953mack
added pic (see edit history)
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Guest 53 Roady

Thank you Al! Your insights are greatly appreciated. I am going through the drivers side adjustments again today. On the passenger side I got everything to work except for a little bit of rubber "fin" that shows when the rear window is all the way down. To do this I had to redrill the vent window frame bracket screw hole in the door 1/8 rearward. I am still hopeful of achieving functional windows by June.

By the way, I disconnect the coil to distributor wire (small) whenever I monkey with the windows to keep from burning the points.

Pat

Edited by 53 Roady (see edit history)
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Good info, Al! I dropped off the window with the glass company today so as soon as it gets back I'll continue the windows. Will probably install the 1/4 window seals I got from Steele sooner than that though, and it appears I should seek out someone with a '50-'53 56R or 76R parts car for some of these window parts. Plus I also need a hardtop-style antenna insulator...different from the 4-door style...and other minor pieces.

Here's a video of my Sonomatic working with a Mosfet vibrator ($40 with s/h) from eBay seller "mopar_suzan". Guy makes them himself and they work pretty good:

Edited by krinkov58 (see edit history)
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Guest 53 Roady

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Great radio Robert and beautiful interior!

I had a big day today and seem to have the driver's front working and meeting the rear quarter. But...the rear quarter won't quite go down all the way and leaves an unsightly rubber fin exposed instead of the clean hardtop look. I took Al,s advice and tuned the door fit yesterday. I spent all morning getting a better fit on the reveal molding. The little rubber part X (weatherstrip,window glass run} would not let the Y (Channel, window glass run} move inboard enough. Binding occurred. I belt sanded 1/16 " off this rubber L. It was probably an aftermarket approximation. The vent window rubbers are a 2 piece version of the original one piece and are mediocre. Does anyone know of really correct ones?

It seems like after setting the vent window the best you can that you attach the glass to the lift mechanism so that it sets pretty level and just clears the reveal molding. At this point the bottom of the vent stud {BY}, the window glass run channel {Y}, and both studs on the Guide, window {BR} are floating. Then with trial lifts and adjustments you try to get the window to work with the flipper seal and the rear quarter window seal. I wish I knew more but probably will if I can stay in this school.

Observations:

The large number of adjustables leaves you with bewildering choices. This ingenious design has considerable redundancy which multiplies these conundrums. For example, I think the non adjustable{ K }window outer glass run weatherstrip is a nuisance down in its hole and was later moved up to the reveal. By 1957 the Window guide {BR} was gone on Olds and I think Buicks. Ah,20/20 hindsight! Can you imagine designing something this beautiful and watching it dissolve because some corporate brass specified brake fluid?

I am trying to attach a few more pics of the Window inner glass run strip {Z}

Pat

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Edited by 53 Roady (see edit history)
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Thanks...the radio was some work that paid off, going to buy a RediRad and hook that up. Yeah I had the fin problem...still do on the passenger side 1/4 window (haven't gotten to that side of the car yet). The driver's side still has to go forward a bit but I'm doing the door first. See here:

I got some really good results with the 1/4 window adjustments studs; they are much like the ones for the door glass...once they get dialed in approximate, even a half turn makes a huge difference. Sometimes it's just a shot in the dark until you happen upon that setting. I mean I was 2 afternoons plus a 6 hour day into one door window and it still isn't perfect. The channel the 2 window frame rollers ride in binds everything up when the top screw is tightened. I shimmed it and it's better, but still a little bit tight for the last few inches going up. Going down is much better.

Many thanks for the photos...pictures say 1000 words...man it's gonna be a tough hunt for those but I definitely need 'em. Waiting for the door glass before I continue messing with the doors. So today I took a look under the dash because when I was troubleshooting an electrical problem last month I noticed one of the wire cables from the wipers was off of the center piece that attaches through the firewall to the motor. I rotated the tensioner on the side with the loose cable up and held it in place with a very small screwdriver through it's hole, connected the cable, ran them over the pulleys holding the cables and released the tensioner by pulling out the screwdriver. And now when I move the center wiper transmission under the dash, one wiper moves, then the other! So that will be tomorrows project.

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Guest 53 Roady

Your quarter window is working great. I had mine working pretty good but after the door glass fitting which is OK now I pretty much am starting over on the quarter. I have it all apart and am going to elongate the lift holes per Al's service bulletin.

Good Luck, Pat

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I expect to do the same when I get my door glass and frame back, unfortunately. Going to do the seal tomorrow. Aftermarket one looks a hair wider so that may give me an edge.

EDIT: Window is back, got the old 1/4 window seal off...not easy! The rubber came off with a strip of metal (copper, brass?) very securely attached to the back. With these new replacement 1/4 window edge seals, am I gluing to the metal strip and sliding that in, or using adhesive on the seal and threading it into the retainer as-is? Or installing the metal first, then the seal?

Edited by krinkov58 (see edit history)
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  • 3 weeks later...

Okay so I did manage to track down a set of those inner window bumpers with the 2 stops. Installed my new door window and the leading edge seals for the 1/4 windows are done...good thing I left everything apart because the 1/4 window needed some tweaking to get the seal to clear part of the upper frame which it just barely was rubbing against. No big deal.

However...I just cannot get this door window right! No matter what I do, it starts chattering about 2/3rds of the way up at it's best adjustment. Any pointers anybody can give me? I've adjusted everything I can think of; starting with the adjustment studs fully screwed in and moving them seperetely as well as in tandem in and out and left and right. And also starting with them fully out so they're barely in the threads of the tabs attached to the runner and division channel. Nothing seems to be working and I'm into this job a ridiculous amount of man-hours. Fell out of love with hardtops after about the 10th hour.

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Guest 53 Roady

I feel your pain. They are a pain. Seems like weeks not hours. The vent window needs to fit relative to the windshield but I ended up moving the little phillips screw under the vent latch back 1/8 "and down 1/16" and cheating the quarter window forward per Al's service bulletin. I installed and adjusted the stops to keep the hydraulics from damaging the vent window which still moves slightly when the window tops out. I left the guide bar loose and made trial runs with the glass run channel loose too. I don't think later models even have the guide bar. When I got things to work with these floaters I observed where they were 'comfortable" and gradually set the studs and tightened things with a test each time. Disconnect the coil to distributor wire or you will roast the points. I lubed the mechanism with anti-seize but then switched to Lubri-plate grease. A little silicone spray helped the fuzzies to slide better but they were still too tight on the driver's door. I ended up belt sanding the window glass run L shaped weatherstrip to allow the glass run channel to move in a 1/16.

Good Luck

Pat

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It's awful. I've been tempted to do what you said you did with that same vent window screw. That guide bar is what is causing half of my problems...finally put a body shim between it and the inside of the door and things are better but not 100%...there is definitely still some binding going on although no serious chatter. So I am going to give it one last go tomorrow and no matter what the outcome, put the door panel back and move on. Been weeks on this window frame now.

But today, since I plan on re-installing the door panel I wanted to take a look at the 4-gang window switch as the last switch on it (passenger 1/4 window) has been goofy since day one and finally gave up the ghost on raising that window (no power to the pump). Hasn't really been an issue since I haven't even made it over to the passenger side yet (it's the better of the 2 in terms of window and door alignment) but it irked me just the same that the switch wasn't working right. So I figured I'd have a look at it before I sent it off to be rebuilt. This probably won't work for everybody who has a switch issue, but here's what worked for me:

I disconnected the battery and all of the wires to the 4 gang switch and removed it from it's bracket. The bracket has 6 tabs which can be folded over to secure it to the door panel, as well as an inner bracket that has 2 tabs on the sides (9 and 3 o'clock) plus 2 tabs on the top and bottom (12 and 6 o'clock). The side tabs can be popped with a screwdriver, and the top and bottom tabs I could hold back with my fingers to separate the switch from the bracket. So now you have the switch itself with it's bezel. It's held to the bezel by kind of an interference fit using 4 removable clips, 2 per side...these clips have a round raised area which match a hole in the bezel tabs where in holds the switch, and kind of like a gravestone-shaped depressed area which matches an indent in the switch body itself (see photo). By pushing in with a small screwdriver through the holes in the bezel's side tabs, and pulling the switch out at the same time, you'll work it free of the bezel and the clips will fall out.

You can now pry up a loose rectangular section of plastic behind the switches. As I did, I could see that the contact (a springy copper loop, indicated by arrows in the photo) which closed the motor connection was way out of place in relation to the other ones. I undid it's nut along the upper "Mot." section of terminals until it's terminal post floated freely, then stuck a screwdriver in there and pulled the loop up until it was at the same level as the others. Holding it in the correct position, I replaced and tightened the nut. Tested it; worked fine. Replacing the bezel with those 4 clips is really tricky so if you'd like to avoid a trip to the insane asylum, put a dab of Elmer's glue on the raised round area of the clip and glue it in it's hole in the bezel...do this with all 4 clips. This way you're not fighting with the clips falling out as you try and re-install the switch in it's bezel.

Again, I'm not saying "this is the fix" but it did work for me today. And I'd rather do a thousand of these 4-gang switches than deal with this window frame alignment for 10 minutes more!

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