It must be hard to be a classic car dealer---

Thinking about the comments in post #3 about a dealership specializing in lower cost or entry level collector cars, here is a little quick math which may speak to why this is a daunting task (brother in law had this idea once, I talked him out of it.)

Assume an inventory of 25 cars in the under $20K range, maybe average retail value of say, $15K. Now assume you turn 50% per month (optomistic, I think) at an average GROSS profit of 10%. Monthly revenues are $19,500 against an inventory of $375K using the same average to calc the cars on your lot. Now let's even assume that is after any needed repairs are done. Now account for rent or any business loan or mortgage you are carrying on your capitol. Add in the utilities, taxes, help (if one is selling 13 cars some help somewhere is likely needed whether it is shuffling cars, bookeeping or even janitorial), insurance, marketing, etc. I think it is a very tight business at best.

Cars in that range are readilly available directly from sellers, and often can take a while to sell. Plus, the guy buying the '31 Model A Sedan for $13K will likely want a lot more hand holding/talking cars/ etc. than the guy buying a $13K Accord for his kid. I am sure "customer aquisition" costs are much higher in this business.

I know consignment average is around 10%, and assume all things considered, it is around there or maybe a bit better on dealer owned merchandise - however that is capitol that sits tied up when it takes a long time to sell, that can hurt. Also sometimes the dealer takes a loss on a car, for whatever reasons. Maybe less so than hobbyists, but it happens.

I think it is a great idea, but nowhere near as easy as it looks.

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The hobby has been very adaptable during the 50 years or so I have been involved. And there have always been collector deals like that Mustang. A problem is the other hobbyist "experts" when they take on the mission of being 400 point judges and value appraisers. If you see that 16 year old at a cruise in don't sit on your pompus ass and ignore he exists (you know the ones who do it) or point out every flaw in the car while you ask "Are you going to fix this?"

Beat the kid up bad enough and he will think the dealer shafted him; and that happens a lot.

I am not a dealer. I do sell cars fairly often and I don't like to sell nice stuff. Nice stuff not only has to satisfy the buyer, but continue to meet the scrutiny of everyone near it, either by ignoring it or picking it apart. The season is starting and you will soon see that row of unapproachable sour faces, sitting on folding chairs with their arms crossed. They are usually so sour they don't even talk to themselves. You will see them. Remember they are also ambassadors of the hobby. Wondering where the hobby went? Don't sit with them.

Bernie

Ever wonder why there are so many furniture sales going on? Over 100% mark up, sometimes as much as 200%. A 25% discount still makes 75% profit.

And they all seem to be having 'Going out of business' sales.

I was going to mention furniture. My in-laws' family was in the high end furniture business from 1906-1996. Their usual markup was 115% and they never had sales or dickered on price.

Matt, your response and good approach (Post #40) are just what

the hobby needs! Why do you think so many other dealers have

such high asking prices? They often do. Is it to get that potential

ONE buyer--maybe one from afar with a strong foreign currency--

who might be willing to pay, though they realize that they will actually

come 'way down? Unlike hobbyists selling cars, who gradually step down

their prices, those dealers hold onto their high asking prices.

To me, it seems futile do deal with them.

Your example with the Mustang, by the way, was great! And thanks

for taking time to explain things in such detail.

Wandering OT for a moment, David Coco, I've stared at your new avatar and no matter how I tilt my head it still looks like a Brontosaurus about to drop a gray bowling ball onto a federal building. What is it really?

I vote for the Sinclair exhibit at the 1964 World's Fair in NY. Oh, and I am not a fan of "Classic Car dealers either. This was my hobby and I hate how big a business it has become. Just my opinion.

Attractive, unusual, entry level fun from a dealer that isn't a 1970s Ford Maverick or 1980s Oldsmobuick: http://forums.aaca.org/showthread.php?t=390532&p=1412331#post1412331

See? Not impossible.

At the risk of alienating myself amongst friends, I'm wondering how many of you are willing to go into work tomorrow and take a pay cut, just for the common good or because your co-workers think you shouldn't make as much doing the job you do. Anyone?

I've done that once ... &, at the time, felt OK about it. Course, now that I've been out of work since February 2012 & no income since September 2013, might be a bit of a different story.

Cort www.oldcarsstronghearts.com

1979 & 1989 Caprice Classics | pigValve, paceMaker, cowValve

"Something's wrong in the world today" __ Aerosmith __ 'Living On The Edge'

BillP, Bubba is correct...1964, I was a 13 year old kid and my parents took me to the New York World's Fair.....

There's a dealer here in Winchester who sells collectable cars and trucks at his so named "Toy Store". His prices are, to me, high end plus, and I wonder how he sells things.....but his inventory is always changing and he lives well.....

Interesting avatar, Mr. Trimacar. So it really was a brontosaurus

about to drop a bowling ball on a federal building!

I suppose next will be a porcupine playing with water balloons in a swimming pool---

I was at the Fair in '64. Surprised I didn't see you there. I guess they don't have World's Fairs anymore.

I was there too, the neighbor lady drove her son and me down in her turquoise '61 Impala convertible. We lived in a little town in NE Pennsylvania so it made a full day.

I don't remember the bowling ball thing but I'm sure it happened.

We actually took an excursion train from York, PA., organized by some local business group. That was about the end of passenger rail service from this area.

I was eight years old and we lived a half hour away from the fair. I'm a lot older now and still live a half hour away. BillP , the bowling ball thing that you see is the top of the "unisphere" which is also still there even though the "Bug" in "Men in Black" crashed into it. The building is blocking the bottom part. Here is the picture view around 12 minutes in. The brontosaurus is blocking the unisphere though. Lots of nice new cars to keep with the topic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZTdkl_jrCw

It's easy to see the added value from a dealer purchase. All dealers? Fu..uh, heck no! But the ones that have been at it for a long time, live the life beyond their showroom floors, actually have a realistic passion for the game, where's the "cost" or lack of value? I'll say it again that NONE OF THIS is a TV show. Some Texas redneck makes $100K? Some mid west dealers ALWAYS find a diamond at the bottom of a barrel of feces? I've seldom to never struck "gold" in my efforts to put new ***** in the seats of cars I've consigned or bought/sold. I've always been happy with what came of it and never lost much more than casual time. In my case the effort can net work in the shop and always results in a positive and memorable experience for both. I see folks at Hershey that I sold something to decades ago. Never once did I get a "...you're the ****** that sold me a...", more like, "Hey man, good to see you again." Value added all around. You can't buy that for any price, you can't (in today's vernacular) jock that from someone else's efforts or time in the game. It's earned. It's respect and trust. Anyone who thinks trust and respect aren't real values in the "hobby" that so many enjoy, then all I can say (again in today's vernacular) "hater's gonna hate." Generally we're all better than that aren't we? This topic should be no different.

I was 18 the year of the fair and drove my brand new '64 Chevelle with my now wife of 47 years. The part I remember most was the Uniroyal Ferris wheel and the rides around the displays on the new Ford's.

Wow! You guys are OLD! What's a worlds fair? That's right....... They haven't had one since I was born. I didn't realize that cars were on the road when the Dino's were still walking the earth. I bet when you guys went to school they didn't have a history class..........just current events!

Sheesh, Ed, dinosaurs were GREAT pets....no bullies back then, if you had a carnivore as a pet....the wimps were the guys with the plant eaters.....

We should respect Dino the dinosaur, he died so we could put fossil fuel in our cars.... Sinclair had a tongue in cheek mascot....

Ed, you're so young, I bet you think oversteer is an open faced hamburger....

............... Sinclair had a tongue in cheek mascot....

Not to mess up your humorous run David, but I have a Sinclair Credit Card from Oklahoma (it's active) just because we had that fuel on the farm back in the day. I have to let my daughter in Oklahoma use it twice a year, just to keep it active. They're funny like that out there.

I'm sure glad those dinosaurs didn't get together and fight climate change back in their day. We wouldn't have any old cars would we.

B

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The hobby has been very adaptable during the 50 years or so I have been involved. And there have always been collector deals like that Mustang. A problem is the other hobbyist "experts" when they take on the mission of being 400 point judges and value appraisers. If you see that 16 year old at a cruise in don't sit on your pompus ass and ignore he exists (you know the ones who do it) or point out every flaw in the car while you ask "Are you going to fix this?"

Beat the kid up bad enough and he will think the dealer shafted him; and that happens a lot.

I am not a dealer. I do sell cars fairly often and I don't like to sell nice stuff. Nice stuff not only has to satisfy the buyer, but continue to meet the scrutiny of everyone near it, either by ignoring it or picking it apart. The season is starting and you will soon see that row of unapproachable sour faces, sitting on folding chairs with their arms crossed. They are usually so sour they don't even talk to themselves. You will see them. Remember they are also ambassadors of the hobby. Wondering where the hobby went? Don't sit with them.

Bernie

A very interesting comment, sadly true! I see very few old guys engaging young'uns at car shows or cruise nights. Sour puss faces are too common. I enjoy when people ask me about what ever car I take to a cruise/show. Some of the questions seem silly to me, but at least someone is interested enough to ask so I try to answer.

I've been on both sides of the buyer/ seller, private/dealer fence over the last 45 years since I started buying cars and then selling. Worked for a dealer for a few years on and off and sold a lot of my own cars privately. My own stuff I usually lost money on, but got to drive something different so I'm ok with that for the most part.

Working for a dealer was much easier as I had none of my money or more importantly to me no personal attachment to the vehicles. I still hate selling an old car that I've spent my time and money on. It's a personal thing that I tend to take offense to a lowball offer or rude comments from a buyer hoping to get a better price. That's when I start seeing red and end the conversation, or worse tell them to get stuffed, and slam doors in face.

So I trade to a few dealers that I know and justify the lower price I receive in my mind by not having the stress of dealing with the public. Yes the dealers I sell to always seem to make money but they have thicker skins than I do. The other thing I don't understand is why a person who is looking at a 30+ yr old car and expects a warranty! This even after they have beaten you down to a minimum price.

I hope to go back to work part time selling when I can semi retire, but only as long as its someone else's inventory.

Low ball offers are just part of the game, and one needs to learn to smile and move on.

Example, not car, but memorabilia.

I was on a great car tour in upstate New York, many moons ago. Walked in a junk shop, and there on the wall for sale, a very early race pennant. Bought it for twelve bucks.

Hershey, couple years later, White field to put it in perspective. Had pennant hanging there for sale, guy walked up, how much? Tagged, $100. Take $50? He asked. No, but I'll take $150. Uh uh wait, tag says $100... Yes, but that's just a suggestion, as you've pointed out with your offer.....we settled on $125, and I still wish I had it back.

Point is, price and value and cost, all different things, and dealers throughout time have worked this to make a living, nothing new, and nothing to worry oneself about....

A very interesting comment, sadly true! I see very few old guys engaging young'uns at car shows or cruise nights. Sour puss faces are too common. I enjoy when people ask me about what ever car I take to a cruise/show. Some of the questions seem silly to me, but at least someone is interested enough to ask so I try to answer.

LIKE!

I am 63 years young.

For the first time ever I went to an area Rat-Rod show because some friends had bragged it up and there were a number of relatively unrodded cars there.

I have to admit I saw a lot of cool cars but one in particular was a VERY well done ground up creation powered by a straight 8 Buick engine. Maybe a Buick chassis for all I knoiw.

That thing was immaculate ad I complemented the owner (probably 10 years my senior and sitting in a lawn chair behind his car)........and he IGNORED ME........ :eek: ........didn't bother to acknowledge I was even there........ :mad:

Another fella had a ratty Dodge "thing" on which he had mounted 4 carburetors........ and I kept looking and looking and finally engaged the owner with a little chit chat and asked if he'd start the engine.

He was only too happy to start it and people flocked over to the car.

Guess who's more popular at a party? Or ANYWHERE?

That old coot with the Buick thing should have stayed home!

The TV guy with the funny looking mustache walked past my car at a show. I said Hi. He just kept walking. Oh well.

B

Same TV guy mentioned above, when I saw he bought a three wheel Davis, I emailed him that I had a Davis emblem off the one I used to have, any interest......no reply. Don't know what his problem might be.....

I guess it's a celebrity thing. I email the other guy that buys cars and has a consignment place in Ct. twice about putting one of my cars with him..... Never heard a word! I guess my money's no good.

I love to open the hood of the 15 Buick and see the look on youngsters faces when I start the motor and they see the open valve train working. I talk to everyone and go home with a sore throat sometimes. Maybe I talk too much? But I always have a lot of people around that are interested, and I like to share the knowledge and be a bit of a showman. If we were all this way. Dandy Dave!

I just got reminded; my son is 32 years old. When he was 9 I took him the Hershey with me. He came home and he said "Gee, Mom, Dad talks to everybody! He even gets weather reports from the man who cleans the bathroom at the rest stop."

I've always been the big showman, myself. Some shorten Big Showmanship to just plain BS. Seems to work.

Bernie

Years ago, in my misspent youth, I had a side job of selling and delivering new and used boats. I'd been raised in a sort of Ozzie and Harriet (if you know who the Nelsons were, you're as old as I am) household and was never taught to haggle over the price of anything. Then, a stint overseas in the military in the late sixties revealed to me that much of the world loves to haggle over a deal; however, I still had not learned to appreciate the process or participate in it. Getting back to the boat sales: the sales manager taught me to have the attitude of: "A low ball offer is better than no offer at all" and to treat every offer as "The best offer you'd had in the last five minutes". Well, I adopted that attitude and have ever since enjoyed the sport/art of haggling, be it over the price of a car or over the latest "gotta have it" at a yard sale.

While I longer take low ball offers as being insulting, I have been known to find them amusing and accompany such offers with a chuckle on my part. I then hit the buyer with a counter offer to "let the games begin". Of course attitude is everything! If a buyer or seller adopts a surly attitude (they have probably already been having a bad day before I showed up), I just move on.

Cheer up, life is short,

Grog

Years ago, in my misspent youth, I had a side job of selling and delivering new and used boats. I'd been raised in a sort of Ozzie and Harriet (if you know who the Nelsons were, you're as old as I am) household and was never taught to haggle over the price of anything. Then, a stint overseas in the military in the late sixties revealed to me that much of the world loves to haggle over a deal; however, I still had not learned to appreciate the process or participate in it. Getting back to the boat sales: the sales manager taught me to have the attitude of: "A low ball offer is better than no offer at all" and to treat every offer as "The best offer you'd had in the last five minutes". Well, I adopted that attitude and have ever since enjoyed the sport/art of haggling, be it over the price of a car or over the latest "gotta have it" at a yard sale.

While I longer take low ball offers as being insulting, I have been known to find them amusing and accompany such offers with a chuckle on my part. I then hit the buyer with a counter offer to "let the games begin". Of course attitude is everything! If a buyer or seller adopts a surly attitude (they have probably already been having a bad day before I showed up), I just move on.

Cheer up, life is short,

Grog

Great post, and a great perspective on low ball offers.

Ed (Post #59), you say there haven't been any World's Fairs

since you were born! Surely you're old enough to drive and

own a car--and if so, there have been many, many, since 1964.

A few examples:

1982--World's Fair, Knoxville

2004--Barcelona, Spain

2010--Expo 2010, Shanghai, China

2012--Expo 2012, South Korea

Some of these distant ones might not get tremendous publicity in the

United States; or else we car fans are too busy with our enjoyable

hobby to read about them!

I won't put the link here because of the adult material in the movie. "Suckers" is on Youtube full length. It is one of my favorites. We never made the $1,000's but we played the game and I cry laughing at the movie every time.

I especially like the guy who won't go inside to make the deal. I have two friends that think the sales manager reminds them a lot of me.

Buying an old car is a completely discretionary purchase. In an earlier post I mentioned sports cars don't always come with little raspy engines. A discretionary purchase can be sport for both the seller and the buyer. Once it is established that seller has a business for buyers whom buy things they don't need, there is no better definition of sport. (I don't play pool in bars anymore). I have given away a dozen good cars. And I have pulled the pants off some really dominating hagglers. Over the years I have noticed that in many instances the reduction in price has nothing to do with market value. There are just some people with a need to devalue anything a person has for sale. If they paid your asking price you would be at an equal level; and they just can't have that. They are easy to spot and fun to play with if you happen to be in good humor that day.

I know the value of what I want. If the price is fair I just pay. If I don't have enough I offer all I have. If that works, OK. I try to be a fair buyer and a sporting seller.

A few years ago I was looking at a Jaguar V12 just to the right of being collectible, still in the driver market. I made a honest reasonable offer to the salesman. He came back and said the company had more in the car than I offered. Academy Award time!

"Your company has a buyer who paid more than I just offered for a 12 cylinder Jaguar. Does he still work her? Is the job open? They really paid more than I offered? Do you know how lucky you are that a legitimate buyer is actually looking at it?" With the most sincere and consoling look I told the salesman " You know this car is going to rot on this lot unless you wholesale it. And I sure wouldn't want to be the one coming back from the auction to tell the boss what it sold for."

I did buy one. Theirs decorated the lot for a while and the last time I saw it the hood wasn't closed right.

When I tired of the one I did buy I advertised it and a buyer from the other side of the city called around 1PM. He asked if he could look at it. I told him it was a long drive and asked if he was bringing money to buy it. He showed up panting and said he just made it to the bank in time. I was so happy for him. He paid that night.

Cheer up, life is short. Gee, I just remembered a guy who bought a car from me and I thought I might have to avoid him the rest of my life. Until he bought the second one.

Bernie

There was a place near Lenoir City, Tennessee, called Smokey Mountain Traders that dealt in old cars / collector cars / muscle cars. It didn't take a genius to figure out they would go out of business. The cars were over priced but even more disturbing was the fact that no matter what car came in to their inventory, they would discard whatever wheel/tire combo the car came with and replace them with the same stupid low profile tire / oversized mag wheel combo. Ugh. I mean every dog gone car had the same wheel / tire combo. Stupid. They are now out of business.

I agree about the wheels and tires. There was a cheap line of die cast model cars sold by Walmart a few years ago called Dub City and every car they offered had a set of sorry looking custom wheels and tires. They ruined the looks of of the models. Don't see them anymore. Guess they found out they wouldn't sell.

There was a place near Lenoir City, Tennessee, called Smokey Mountain Traders that dealt in old cars / collector cars / muscle cars. It didn't take a genius to figure out they would go out of business. The cars were over priced but even more disturbing was the fact that no matter what car came in to their inventory, they would discard whatever wheel/tire combo the car came with and replace them with the same stupid low profile tire / oversized mag wheel combo. Ugh. I mean every dog gone car had the same wheel / tire combo. Stupid. They are now out of business.

Errr..... It must be REALLY hard to be a classic car dealer when you have been mistakenly reported as KIA. As Mark Twain said, "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." I screwed up the link, (again) but they have 20 cars for sale on ebay right now, including a 67 Plymouth GTX, 67 Camaro, etc.

When I went there to their former physical location, they were no longer there. My mistake. Every car with the same tire / wheel combo was no mistake. Ugh.

Every car I sell takes between 8 and 10 hours to get online. The photos, the editing, the write-up, the posting to the various websites, writing ad copy for print ads, corresponding with editors, etc., all adds up. That's why expensive cars are better than inexpensive cars, margin-wise. A 20% margin on a $10,000 car or a 5% margin on a $100,000 car, which would you rather have if they both took the same amount of effort to sell? And to be honest, the cheaper cars are MUCH harder to sell, mostly because the buyers are different. On a $200,000 car, that's a tiny fraction of the buyer's net worth. On a $16,000 car, that might be every penny the guy can scrape together and the sum total of his life savings. Of course he's going to be skittish about spending it. Those guys often need a lot of extra hand-holding, which takes time, which costs money. I don't mind doing it (in fact, I rather enjoy the people I meet in this job), but the fact is, inexpensive cars are harder to sell and earn less money while doing it. Does that make sense?

Pretty much the same in real estate-easier to sell a more expensive house then a starter home................................................

Thanks Mercer09, Nothing in your post is new, but somehow it seams different, looking at cars from the higher end. I would think cars above the $200.000 range are maxed out on asking prices and finding ones that can turn a quick profit are hard to find. Bob

Thanks, Mercer09, for the explanation. Still, it's clear

that some dealers start out seeking 100% (gross) mark-ups.

I'm sure the 5% and 10% mark-ups you quote are net,

after all the time, advertising, rent, utilities and other overhead

you invested.

It sounds like you found that some higher-end buyers spend money freely.

In my experience (which isn't as extensive as yours), the people

who have earned and built up their fortunes over many years are

just as thrifty as anyone else. One man I know has an 8-figure income--

when people get to that $10,000,000-plus level their incomes tend to

become public knowledge--and I told him about a car for sale.

His first question was, "What's he asking for it?"