"Old" gasoline just a myth?

.....

To go on and on about using that fuel in our street cars when it's illegal is futile.

......

Helfen, that's the same feelings some Virginians had until the antique car hobby (AACA , Street Rodders, classic car clubs, etc.) got together and, with the help of a local State Senator, got rid of the property tax on ALL Virginia antique cars. We also got a one time license fee of $50.00 for the lifetime of our vehicles, and no more state inspections.

Just last year, Virginia, Maryland, and other local states had their members drive their antique cars and park on the lawn at Washington DC to protest the fuel discussed in this very thread. We had Congressional representatives come out and support us.

So, the "futile" fight you speak of has not died in all of us. Gosh, I feel like Charlton Heston now! Wait! He's dead! :eek:

Helfen, that's the same feelings some Virginians had until the antique car hobby (AACA , Street Rodders, classic car clubs, etc.) got together and, with the help of a local State Senator, got rid of the property tax on ALL Virginia antique cars. We also got a one time license fee of $50.00 for the lifetime of our vehicles, and no more state inspections.

Just last year, Virginia, Maryland, and other local states had their members drive their antique cars and park on the lawn at Washington DC to protest the fuel discussed in this very thread. We had Congressional representatives come out and support us.

So, the "futile" fight you speak of has not died in all of us. Gosh, I feel like Charlton Heston now! Wait! He's dead! :eek:

Wayne, here is the problem. The EPA which has outlawed the use of leaded fuel is a entity all it's own, is not subject to the whims of a president, or congress. It acts independently just like another government agency called the IRS. Please remember that I'm on your side, but with with the creation of these agencies that are not accountable to anyone means we are all in the sling for what they can do to us. They are operating in complete opposition to what the founding fathers of our government envisioned and designed into our government.

That's why it's time for our representatives to rein in all the rouge government agencies. The agencies still have to get their funds from congress. Congress can deny funding or limit it to get things done if they have the back bone. Unfortunately we have seen lately just how much they have. It's been like watching jelly fish lately. I think you could measure it all with a yard stick.

Sorry for getting political. Just alot has been thrown on the citizens plates lately and to say we feel overwhelmed and underpowered/ represented is an understatement.

OK, I'll show why I responded the way I did.

First I felt I was being 'schooled' on 100LL, explaining what it is, how it performs at altitude etc. That I did not need to be told, it's AVIATION gas, airplanes fly. I stated my aviation experience so I would not need to read more schooling on aviation gas characteristics at ground level.

What I responded to originally was the statement that using Aviation gas in a street car is illegal.. Yep, so is driving 5mph over the speed limit, so is not having your timing set for best emissions, or the mixture set for best emisions, and God forbid you unplug your EGR valve's vacuum hose!!

I really don't care about the legality of using Aviation fuel. IF or WHEN i get stopped by a police officer when driving a collector car, I'm sure it will be for a brake light or tail light that isn't working, or for not hand signaling a turn, or speeding, etc. I cannot imagine any police officer stopping a collector car to dip it's tank, or take a fuel sample in order to ticket or confiscate my vehicle. Besides, lead additives are sold virtually at every autoparts store, for those high compression engines in the mid 60's that do have a significant need for lead as a combustion chamber and exhaust valve lubricant.

I did read the clean air act, thank you, but I'm still going to use Aviation gas whenever I can buy it, especially for long term storage vehicles.

Here, in red are the inaccurate, or blatantly wrong statements.

AvGas LL100 stands for "Low Lead 100 Octane". TEL (Tetra-ethyl-lead) is added to raise the octane. When used in a motor vehicle this fuel will leave a lot of lead deposits in the motor. 100LL has a high lead content (0.5 grams per litre), even higher than leaded race fuels. The deposits left when TEL(lead) is burned are corrosive and damaging to valves, valve guides, valve seats and cylinder heads. Lead deposits will also block oxygen(lambda) sensors and catalytic converters and foul spark plugs even after only a short use. Also, 100LL has a chemical package added to make it perform at high altitude, and that isn't the best thing for motor vehicle performance here on the ground.

AvGas is blended for large-bore, long-stroke, low RPM engines which run at high altitude. While AvGas' higher octane is useful, smaller-bore, shorter-stroke, high RPM engines will perform better on racing fuel or high quality octane boosters. AvGas has lower volatility so when used in proportions higher than about 40%, part-throttle drivability and cold starts may be compromised. AvGas has a lower specific gravity so it will require a change in air-fuel ratio calibration for the engine to perform at its best. LL100 is blended with a high percentage of aromatics causing reduced throttle response which is not an issue with an aircraft engine but certainly an issue in a high-performance automotive engine. These high levels of aromatics will also damage rubber components in automotive fuel systems such as fuel lines, fuel pump seals and injector washers.

The sale and use of AvGas is heavily-regulated. Most aircraft fuel dealers refuse to put AvGas into anything other than an aircraft fuel tank. There is a legal grey area that has some vendors willing to dispense AvGas into "approved" containers if they believe the end use of that AvGas is fueling an aircraft engine. This loop-hole is how some may obtain AvGas for automotive use. Because AvGas has no taxes and duties on it, use on public roads is illegal and if found could result in your vehicle being impounded.

I responded with quote because of the statements above in red are a the very least misleading, at worst, simply false.

I do not run Aviation gas in 'high performance' gasoline engines.. I don't own any of those. My collector cars are very 'low performance' if you compare HP/Cubic Inch displacement or compression ratios. And any lead will be helpful, not detrimental with the exception of excess lead deposits on spark plugs, which are easy enough to clean.

I honestly cannot think of a reason to NOT use aviation gas as a storage fuel, with the exception of the cost. But what is the cost of an engine rebuild when a fuel pump diaphragm splits [from ethanol fuel] and dumps a gallon or two of gasoline into the crankcase, while the driver uses his electric pusher/priming pump to keep the engine running, ? Thousands of dollars for new poured bearings, and line boring, and a season with the car undergoing repairs..

I'll 'risk' the illegality of using Aviation gas.

GLong

OK, I'll show why I responded the way I did.

First I felt I was being 'schooled' on 100LL, explaining what it is, how it performs at altitude etc. That I did not need to be told, it's AVIATION gas, airplanes fly. I stated my aviation experience so I would not need to read more schooling on aviation gas characteristics at ground level.

What I responded to originally was the statement that using Aviation gas in a street car is illegal.. Yep, so is driving 5mph over the speed limit, so is not having your timing set for best emissions, or the mixture set for best emisions, and God forbid you unplug your EGR valve's vacuum hose!!

I really don't care about the legality of using Aviation fuel. IF or WHEN i get stopped by a police officer when driving a collector car, I'm sure it will be for a brake light or tail light that isn't working, or for not hand signaling a turn, or speeding, etc. I cannot imagine any police officer stopping a collector car to dip it's tank, or take a fuel sample in order to ticket or confiscate my vehicle. Besides, lead additives are sold virtually at every autoparts store, for those high compression engines in the mid 60's that do have a significant need for lead as a combustion chamber and exhaust valve lubricant.

I did read the clean air act, thank you, but I'm still going to use Aviation gas whenever I can buy it, especially for long term storage vehicles.

I'll 'risk' the illegality of using Aviation gas.

GLong

All this tells me is there are irresponsible people in this world who do not conform to rules and regulations. Even for a someone who is supposedly versed in rules and regulation.

I would love to be a air traffic controller when this happens; Neutron calls the tower and demands that he land saying how much is it going to cost me for you to give permission???? Controller says " no charge "

I'll conform to all rules and regulations 100 percent instead of the 99 percent I conform to now, when the people who make the laws and enforce them are on the 100 percent level as well. Seems to me, most are at the 50 percent level or less right now, so they have a long way to go.

I think I drove my cars a collective 500 miles last year at the most. Of those I put Aviation fuel in my 60 Fuel injected Corvette. It finally ran like it was suppose to. That was the 8 miles I drove it.

I wonder what is better, a tankful of gas less than a year old that goes bad and is now 15 plus gallons of toxic waste with really no use or the lead I would use if I had run it in all my cars over the 500 miles for the season along with all the associated nonrecycleable parts you will replace that failed from ethanol to now fill the landfills.

I think I just like being a rebel.

Last summer I pulled my '75 Olds out of a long storage of about ten or fifteen years. When I parked it, I filled the tank with regular non-ethanol gas and the recommended amount of Stable. I remember that I paid less than a dollar per gallon for the gas at that time. Upon retrieving the car, the first thing I did was remove all the old gas into several large gas cans. In order to dispose of the old gas, I figured that I would mix small amounts with new gas, and burn it in my lawn mower. The lawn mower ran fine, and as time went on I started mixing a lower ratio of old gas to new gas until I was running on old gas completely. The lawn mower never new the difference and ran perfectly all the while. Although the gas had somewhat of an amber tint to it, it didn't smell too bad so I'm guessing it remained fairly we'll preserved due to the fact that it was kept in a vehicle with a "closed" fuel system.

Larry W : you just stated one of the most important items regarding the Ethanol fuel issue: A 'closed' fuel system. The main reason that ethanol fuel works as well as it does on modern cars is that almost all have some form of pressurized fuel injection system, and have a closed or sealed fuel tank venting system.

Ethanol fuel's big problem is the absorbed moisture from the air. Our old cars for the most part have simple vented fuel caps, or a simple hose coming from the top of the fuel tank, venting to atmosphere.

It only takes a few months in the right temperatures, and high humidity levels to have Ethanol in our fuel absorb too much moisture and start to separate from the gasoline, stratify and settle to the bottom of the fuel tank, When attempting to start the car with separated/stratified fuel, the fuel pickup is in the bottom of the tank, and what it draws out is not burnable, and the car will start on residual fuel in the system then stall on what has been drawn from the fuel tank,, and it wont start.. I've had this 'wonderful' experience twice.

The alternative is to store the car with a dry fuel tank, which in our humid climate will result in a rusted interior of the tank, and the ensuing problems, or storing the car with either Aviation fuel or Ethanol free fuel in the tank.

I have started trying to cover all fuel tank fill openings with plastic and tape, but some fuel tanks have well hidden and difficult or impossible to access vent lines.

I usually have to siphon out what fuel I can, then refill with a large amount of fresh fuel to hopefully absorb and mix with the old fuel.

I'm not sure your lawnmower is a good gauge to how good the old gasoline actually is.. I'd think taking your car for a run on the dragstrip, or on the freeway using a lot of power would show quickly if the vehicle was performing as well on the old fuel as it normally does on fresh gasoline..

I don't know what your lawn mower is, but most new professional mowers have fuel injection and pressurized fuel systems much like our modern cars.

I know my gasoline generator, with a simple Briggs&Stratton engine, gravity fed updraft float-type carburetor, has failed to start more than once from the fuel going bad.. And even the 'new' Stabil products have trouble keeping the ethanol fuel good in vented-to-atmosphere fuel tanks like my generator for more than 5-6 months..

I gave up and bought a diesel powered generator.

GLong

I'll conform to all rules and regulations 100 percent instead of the 99 percent I conform to now, when the people who make the laws and enforce them are on the 100 percent level as well. Seems to me, most are at the 50 percent level or less right now, so they have a long way to go.

Rule #1 when parents confront this issue with their children is; I don't care what your best friend or enemy is doing. It is you we are talking about. Just because one of your friends jumps off a cliff does not mean you have to.

Rule #2 never point to others bad behavior to justify yours. I think some former State department chief is trying to do this as we speak.

Be a rebel if you like, just do it legally.

Tell yourself and your children to work within the law to change things that you feel need be changed. Don't teach children with little lessons like it doesn't apply to me so I do as I like. These things end up later in life as bigger issues.

Sometimes illegal rebellion is needed to change unjust laws!

Sometimes illegal rebellion is needed to change unjust laws!

When it is justified by the general consensus yes. You'll hardly get that with todays mindset about leaded fuel being reintroduced.

I no longer trust gas stablizers. I used it in a chain saw and a lawn mower and it stopped up everything with a red putty-like gel. Never again.

LL-Avgas only has about 5% of the amount TEL that leaded Avgas used to have and it is scheduled to have another reduction in lead content in a couple years. The amount of lead in LL is just enough to protect valves & guides in certain aircraft engines that require it. High content lead used to boost the octane but other additives are now used to boost octane in Avgas. TEL has nothing to do with long term storage of Avgas, it is the fact that Avgas does not contain Ethanol. "Marine" gas is also E free and cheaper and easier to obtain, and lead free AND some supplies already have stabilizers added.

I no longer trust gas stablizers. I used it in a chain saw and a lawn mower and it stopped up everything with a red putty-like gel. Never again.

The good thing about E10 is that Ethanol is a detergent that prevents deposits from forming. It is one of the reasons that modern cars design for E can go way more that 100,000 miles without getting all fouled up.

One of the bad things about E10 is that Ethanol is a detergent... and actually defeats the purpose of mixing oil with gas in a 2 cycle engine. It washes the oil off the moving parts that the oil is supposed to coat. Being a detergent, E will break down the oil in the mixture and gel with water content. Even though "modern" 2-cycle oil is supposed to be E-resistant, it still breaks down sooner than E10 not mixed with oil.

When it is justified by the general consensus yes. You'll hardly get that with todays mindset about leaded fuel being reintroduced.

Many of the environmental laws aren't passed by the general consensus but by a small group of people who shout louder than the rest and are acting in a Knee jerk feelgood mode, not thinking through the ramifications of their actions on the general well being of the entire nation. Much of the legislation is drawn up behind closed doors and not allowed to be reviewed before being implemented.

I would bet if much was put to a general vote the yeas would be a much smaller percent than the neighs. As we've seen lately especially in the last election people weren't happy with the way things were going and replaced a bunch of representatives in an attempt to rein in the rouge government actions.

Many of the environmental laws aren't passed by the general consensus but by a small group of people who shout louder than the rest and are acting in a Knee jerk feelgood mode, not thinking through the ramifications of their actions on the general well being of the entire nation. Much of the legislation is drawn up behind closed doors and not allowed to be reviewed before being implemented.

I would bet if much was put to a general vote the yeas would be a much smaller percent than the neighs. As we've seen lately especially in the last election people weren't happy with the way things were going and replaced a bunch of representatives in an attempt to rein in the rouge government actions.

I agree with the first part of your statement wholeheartedly, however most adults under 50 have been trained by the environmental propaganda mill so that the general vote you are proposing would not come out in your favor.

When it comes to science and technology practically all politicians are idiots. They pass laws all the time that make no sense, except politically.

I agree with the first part of your statement wholeheartedly, however most adults under 50 have been trained by the environmental propaganda mill so that the general vote you are proposing would not come out in your favor.

I understand. They said the side that won the last election only won because of low voter turn out. Atleast that was the excuse. Maybe if they did have a vote on it, the guys like you and I who are wholeheartedly against things would have such a fire under our butts we would show up in large enough numbers to outnumber the younger generation that might find it inconvenient to get out and vote like they did in the last election.

We could hope anyways

As I recall, there are laws, then there are rules and regulations. For example, the EPA was created through legislation/law, but the rub comes in that the EPA was empowered to promulgate rules and regulations without legislative input. There are also "acts", such as the Clean Water Act, which are enabled by the legislature. Different agencies may be given the task of enforcing an "act", and along with that, are given the authority to promulgate even more rules and regulations. I suppose this is all done in the interest of effective government; however, the real world impact is more and more rules and regulations which have the force of law, yet have not had the benefit of legislative review. I'm sure that I unwittingly violate various rules and regulations on a daily basis.

If anyone else on this thread has a better understanding of this, please correct my post.

I didn't do it,

Grog

As I recall, there are laws, then there are rules and regulations. For example, the EPA was created through legislation/law, but the rub comes in that the EPA was empowered to promulgate rules and regulations without legislative input. There are also "acts", such as the Clean Water Act, which are enabled by the legislature. Different agencies may be given the task of enforcing an "act", and along with that, are given the authority to promulgate even more rules and regulations. I suppose this is all done in the interest of effective government; however, the real world impact is more and more rules and regulations which have the force of law, yet have not had the benefit of legislative review. I'm sure that I unwittingly violate various rules and regulations on a daily basis.

If anyone else on this thread has a better understanding of this, please correct my post.

I didn't do it,

Grog

And that is why 2,000 years ago they gave up the laws of the old testament... No one could keep up. And here we are, History repeating its self... Some of us are most likely breaking some nonsense law every day and do not even know it as there are so many on the books. Go though town Ten Miles Per Hour or Less and have a Man in Front hold a Lamp to warn pedestrians that a Horseless carriage is commin though... LOL Dandy Dave!

Createing laws is the easy part. Enforcement of those laws is more difficult because it requires funding. Too many laws and not enough funding leads to selective enforcement, which there seems to be a lot of these days.