Early '64 Questions

March 18, 2015

I came accross this very early '64 for sale:

http://classiccars.com/listings/view/642477/1964-buick-riviera-for-sale-in-atlanta-georgia-30306#

I noticed that it has the '63 glove box emblem and the center counsel is black vinyl but should be wood trim. I also thought that the first vinyl roof option was introduced in 1965. What stuck out for me are the trim and accessories codes on the cowl tag. I haven't seen "J2" following a trim code before, and the accessories code is totally foreign to me. Maybe someone can help with deciphering it.

Seafoam65 · March 18, 2015

My Dad's very early build 65 Riviera had 64 parts in the interior. It is very possible

that the incorrect interior parts on the car in question were installed at the factory. My Dad's 65 was built with a 1964 glove box emblem.

Pat Curran · March 18, 2015

I came accross this very early '64 for sale:
http://classiccars.com/listings/view/642477/1964-buick-riviera-for-sale-in-atlanta-georgia-30306#
I noticed that it has the '63 glove box emblem and the center counsel is black vinyl but should be wood trim. I also thought that the first vinyl roof option was introduced in 1965. What stuck out for me are the trim and accessories codes on the cowl tag. I haven't seen "J2" following a trim code before, and the accessories code is totally foreign to me. Maybe someone can help with deciphering it.

The vinyl roof was never offered on the 64 from the factory and wasn't offered on the 65's until mid production. The wheels weren't offered until 65 as well although they look good on the car. The chrome road wheel was an exclusive option on the 64 Wildcat only and wouldn't be available on the Riviera until 65.

The black vinyl on the console and around the radio should be wood veneer(same as on the doors). This was most likely a personal preference or a short cut during restoration. With regard to the glove box script, if it was an early production car it is possible that a 63 style was carried over. Other than that, the glove box door could have been swapped out for one in better condition during the restoration.

Pat

March 18, 2015

The vendor also states it has the "correct 401 cu. in." engine. My understanding was the 425 was standard on all but a handful of '64s. Any comments ?

Seafoam65 · March 18, 2015

Sounds like a "Frankenstein" car, made from an assemblage of left over Riviera parts cars.

Let's hope that Igor didn't select the "Abbie Normal" engine!

March 18, 2015

And just what's wrong with Abbie Normal ? I have a similar brain, and own a Riviera ! Seriously, I should add, faults notwithstanding, it looks like a nice car. Never wild about vinyl tops, but love those incorrect wheels. ('cause my '64 also has them ! )

Edited March 18, 2015 by Dale Vancouver
incorrect spelling (see edit history)

Bleach · March 18, 2015

There are too many inconsistencies about this car plus a bubbling issue under an incorrect vinyl top makes me very leery about this one, especially at the asking price.

There was no 401 in a factory produced 64 Riviera to my knowledge and is confirmed by the ROA site: http://rivowners.org/features/evolution/evpt64.html

Don't just walk, run from this one!

1965rivgs · March 18, 2015

There are too many inconsistencies about this car plus a bubbling issue under an incorrect vinyl top makes me very leery about this one, especially at the asking price.
There was no 401 in a factory produced 64 Riviera to my knowledge and is confirmed by the ROA site: http://rivowners.org/features/evolution/evpt64.html
Don't just walk, run from this one!

Incorrect...some export cars, depending on destination, were assembled with 401 engines.

Tom Mooney

1965rivgs · March 18, 2015

I came accross this very early '64 for sale:
http://classiccars.com/listings/view/642477/1964-buick-riviera-for-sale-in-atlanta-georgia-30306#
I noticed that it has the '63 glove box emblem and the center counsel is black vinyl but should be wood trim. I also thought that the first vinyl roof option was introduced in 1965. What stuck out for me are the trim and accessories codes on the cowl tag. I haven't seen "J2" following a trim code before, and the accessories code is totally foreign to me. Maybe someone can help with deciphering it.

Darren,

The early `64`s used the `63 Fisher Body characters which are simply the sales codes on the wholesale car order form which was used by the salesman to order the car. If you look at the body build date this body was manufactured in the 4th week of July `63 and carries a Fisher Body # which places it well within the first week of production. The VIN number is also very low. Very neat car, very striking in appearance,

Tom Mooney

March 19, 2015

On some Plymouth police cars in L.A. I thing they were 70's, one side said Belvedere, the other.....Coronet.

March 19, 2015

Thanks guys for all the comments/information. I had a feeling the cowl tag may have been similar to the '63s but haven't seen enough of them to verify this.

Pat Curran · March 19, 2015

The vendor also states it has the "correct 401 cu. in." engine. My understanding was the 425 was standard on all but a handful of '64s. Any comments ?

The 425 was standard in 64. I guess you could special order a 401 if the dealer had the right connections but why? A difference of 15 less horsepower and the same gas mileage would be pointless. The air cleaner on the car is the correct unit for the 425. The more I read and look, the more confusing it gets. I wonder if it was restored using the best parts from a 63 and 64?

Bleach · March 19, 2015

Incorrect...some export cars, depending on destination, were assembled with 401 engines.
Tom Mooney

The thing is we're not talking about an export car. I didn't see a breakdown of export cars in the production figures on the Riviera site. Were any a part of the 64 production figure mentioned or was there a separate production number for exported models?

Either way, I think this car is way overpriced in light of all the issues that have been brought up.

March 19, 2015

Chances are the seller incorrectly stated the engine is a 401. Is there any noticable physical differences, besides the air cleaner, block stamping, and sometimes color, that one can see between the two engines?

Also, here's a thread that discussed a '64 that was exported to Europe:

http://forums.aaca.org/f177/1964-buick-riviera-built-antwerp-belgium-370483.html

Lots of great info here.....

Edited March 19, 2015 by dwhiteside64 (see edit history)

lrlforfun · March 19, 2015

OK Riviera people: Two things I don't like about this car. The vinyl top.....which is really a personal preference whether it's correct or not. The other item? I feel the price is obscene.Correct the price and all the minor picky stuff melts away. The car? Really happy and how many powder blue's with black interior have you seen? Lots of powder blues with blue, but black is kinda nice. Mitch.

Edited March 20, 2015 by lrlforfun (see edit history)

RivNut · March 20, 2015

Here's a question for Tom to answer about those early '64's. The 64's with standard interior had black vinyl on the console and did not have wood inserts on the doors. Is there a possibility that the early '64's were built as the 63's with custom interior? Wood inserts on the doors AND black vinyl on the console?

Ed

bodayguy · March 20, 2015

I agree that the vinyl top is unfortunate, but I certainly don't think the asking price is obscene. You can ask for whatever. It's not that crazily priced.

It looks like a nicely restored car - yeah, whoever wrote the ad misstated it as a 401, so you gotta question their knowledge - but it looks pretty good to me.

RivNut · March 20, 2015

Is there any noticable physical differences, besides the air cleaner, block stamping, and sometimes color, that one can see between the two engines? Lots of great info here.....

Here's an article written by Darwin Falk, past president of the Riviera Owners Assn. that's in the reference section on the Team Buick website. It has to do with a casting nub that's on 425 blocks.

http://www.teambuick.com/reference/ident_engine_425.php

arnulfo de l.a. · March 20, 2015

Here's an article written by Darwin Falk, past president of the Riviera Owners Assn. that's in the reference section on the Team Buick website. It has to do with a casting nub that's on 425 blocks.
http://www.teambuick.com/reference/ident_engine_425.php

the first sentence in that article states the first red nailhead 425 appeared in 1965. Does he mean 1966 models built in 1965? I don't recall ever seeing a red 425 in a 1965. Mine is light green.

Arnulfo

Bleach · March 20, 2015

"Vinyl top is excellent -- the only cosmetic flaws to note are some minor bubbles starting at base of rear window under the vinyl roof. "

To me this sounds like rust and that's were it starts even on cars without a vinyl top. There should be no issues like this on a proper low mile restoration at the asking price.

RivNut · March 20, 2015

the first sentence in that article states the first red nailhead 425 appeared in 1965. Does he mean 1966 models built in 1965? I don't recall ever seeing a red 425 in a 1965. Mine is light green.
Arnulfo

I think the intent of the statement is that the engine was built in '65 for the '66 production year. Nailhead engines were green until the '66 production year.

It's always weird the way one article can lay claim to a myth or help straighten out something without starting another myth of some sort.

I emailed the seller and told him some of the things we were discussing. He thanked me and said that he would correct the 401 issue. He made no comment on the rust issue. Nor did he comment on the use of incorrect wheels when I told him that the first year for Rivieras with Rally wheels was 1965. He also stated that the recent restoration was "done to the owners personal preferences." Therefore he's covered all of the items that aren't "as from the factory."

He has another '64 that he wanted some comments on. It's a nicer car than this one but he's asking an additional $5K for it. Diplomat Blue with light blue cloth/vinyl. Power windows but not much more. It needs some serious chassis detailing though for that price.

Edited March 20, 2015 by RivNut (see edit history)

March 20, 2015

Here's an article written by Darwin Falk, past president of the Riviera Owners Assn. that's in the reference section on the Team Buick website. It has to do with a casting nub that's on 425 blocks.
http://www.teambuick.com/reference/ident_engine_425.php

Thanks for the reference Ed. Most of the article makes perfect sense, other than the comments that people have seen this nub on 401 engines as well. What gives????

RivNut · March 20, 2015

As I said in an earlier post. "It's always weird the way one article can lay claim to a myth or help straighten out something without starting another myth of some sort." Just when you think you have a lock on something, someone lays a disclaimer to it. As you said. "What gives?" Perhaps I should just take up needle point.

Ed

1965rivgs · March 21, 2015

The 425 was standard in 64. I guess you could special order a 401 if the dealer had the right connections but why? A difference of 15 less horsepower and the same gas mileage would be pointless. The air cleaner on the car is the correct unit for the 425. The more I read and look, the more confusing it gets. I wonder if it was restored using the best parts from a 63 and 64?

About 1/2 of export cars (275) were built with a lo compression 401, most surely due to lack of high quality fuel availability at their destination.

Tom

1965rivgs · March 21, 2015

The thing is we're not talking about an export car. I didn't see a breakdown of export cars in the production figures on the Riviera site. Were any a part of the 64 production figure mentioned or was there a separate production number for exported models?
Either way, I think this car is way overpriced in light of all the issues that have been brought up.

DJ,

You stated "There was no 401 in a factory produced 64 Riviera to my knowledge and is confirmed by the ROA site". My response was geared to this frequently stated inaccuracy. I havnt reviewed (no pun intended) the statistic on the ROA website but generally total Flint production figures are stated. This figure would include export cars which totaled 579 Rivieras. Of those 579 Rivieras built for export 275 Rivs were built with the lo compression 401 engine. I dont have factory documentation as to why but I assume it is due to the lack of high quality fuel available in some export markets. There may be some other explanation like excise taxes or other taxes (which I know nothing about) but that is my best guess. Bottom line is the factory DID produce 275 `64 Rivs with 401 engines. We had one of those cars surface on this forum last year which was relatively close to me and which I personally inspected. Said car was exported to Belgium/Germany as I vaguely recall.

Interesting to note that Buick was simultaneously producing lo comp 401 engines for rebranding by Gray Marine for the marine market. These engines and a short description are featured in the `66 Buick Owners Manual. Hope this helps clear up the "facts"

Tom Mooney

1965rivgs · March 21, 2015

OK Riviera people: Two things I don't like about this car. The vinyl top.....which is really a personal preference whether it's correct or not. The other item? I feel the price is obscene.Correct the price and all the minor picky stuff melts away. The car? Really happy and how many powder blue's with black interior have you seen? Lots of powder blues with blue, but black is kinda nice. Mitch.

Mitch, I agree with your comment about pricing, it is definitely on the high end of the scale. I also agree that black against the powder blue is not a combination seen frequently and I like the contrast. One intriguing feature of this car is it is very early production.

Tom

1965rivgs · March 21, 2015

Here's a question for Tom to answer about those early '64's. The 64's with standard interior had black vinyl on the console and did not have wood inserts on the doors. Is there a possibility that the early '64's were built as the 63's with custom interior? Wood inserts on the doors AND black vinyl on the console?
Ed

Hi Ed, Not sure exactly why your question refers to the `63 custom interiors but I am not aware of any consistent evidence of the mixing of wood and vinyl in the `64 models. Having said that, we recently discovered 2 `65 models, very close in production sequence, with non-standard glovebox doors...so, always learning,

Tom

Early '64 Questions

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