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48 Super Clutch problem


Guest Blackpack

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Guest Blackpack

I just took my Buick Super Convertible out for its first drive since purchasing it. It was advertised as having a new clutch, but it shakes badly when taking off from first or reverse gear. It also grinds gears when down shifting. But my biggest worry is the puddle or what appears to be engine oil under the rear transmission case. It looks like there is either a very small drain or weep hole at the bottom and that is where the fluid is dripping from. Any ideas?

Edited by Blackpack (see edit history)
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There a quite a few things that can produce the the issues you describe. Two methods I employ may be helpful in discovering the cause.. First is the kiss principle, whereby you start with the most simple/cheapest repairs that apply. Next use a logical sequence of diagnosis, for instance, car won't turn over with key check battery(start at source) next cables and connections and so on. In your case, knowing how the clutch and trans parts work and interface will give an indication of where to start checking, my list would be, check motor mounts closest to trans/engine mount, if one or both are broken it will allow the whole rear of the engine trans move up and down with the force from engaging the clutch. There is also a "strut" rod that has adjustable tension explained in the shop manual. You have one right? Its essential with these old cars for reference, most mechanics with a working knowledge of these cars have passed. If the clutch is out of adjustment and not disengaging enuff the gears will grind at downshift they have to slow down to help syncros. Some replace trans gear grease with synthetic oil, the viscosity is to thin to help slow the gears for shifting in some cases, grinding when shifting. When the clutch was replaced, if the flywheel was not resurfaced, the face could be rough from a slipping clutch causing heat from the friction of the slipping instead of grabbing and holding, called chattering. You could have more than one thing wrong at the same time. Strut rod out of adj. And flywheel needing resurfacing. If the pilot bearing(inside the back end of the crankshaft) is bad it can grab the front shaft of the trans and keep that front shaft turning with the engine even with the clutch pushed in. My swag(scientific wild ass guess) is the rear motor MTS, strut rod or flywheel that needs resufacing. Kiss principle: check strut rod motor MTS= easiest. You can always go for the harder stuff and you might be able to stop there! Good Luck! Sorry it was so long winded. Never know where folks are at skill/experience wise. Oh yeah, measure the centering of the rear of engine trans in the frame, off center can also cause shifting issues

Edited by Guest (see edit history)
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Guest Blackpack

Thank you 2carb40 for your advice. I will check the mounts and hope that is the problem. I do wonder though why there would be oil dripping from the weep hole at the rear of the transmission? Also, that oil is much darker than the oil showing on the engine dipstick, which makes me question if there is a leaking rear sear like another member suggested. Any ideas on that? Thanks again

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"Rear transmission case". Do you mean the flywheel cover or the torque tube ball?

Black oil coming from the hole of the clutch cover usually means a bad rear seal. I dont remember if the '48 still has babbit mains with shims. If it does sometimes you can improve things by taking clearance up on the main bearings (do them all). That is a crap shoot.

Replacing the rear seal with the engine in the car is not a job for the feint of heart. It is tough, but can be done!

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Guest Blackpack

Hello DonMicheletti,

Not sure of the proper name, but it is behind the transmission pan. further back from the engine. The weird thing is that the oil that is coming out is very dirty and the oil on the engine dip stick seems to be clean. I received documentation from the dealer that sold me the car today and it shows that they replaced both the clutch disk and pressure plate. The salesman admitted to me that it has always had a shake taking off from first gear. Even after they replaced the parts, but no leaks

Edited by Blackpack (see edit history)
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You are experiencing clutch chatter. I suspect you have gear oil or rear main leaking oil on the clutch material. Chatter in first and reverse. The same gear is used for both so that makes sense. The clutch plate and clutch will need to be replaced. There is no saving the clutch when saturated with gear oil.

Grinding gears while down shifting? Possible a syncro is broken.

The puddle at the rear of the transmission is probably the rear seal. Replace it.

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Hello DonMicheletti,

Not sure of the proper name, but it is behind the transmission pan. further back from the engine. The weird thing is that the oil that is coming out is very dirty and the oil on the engine dip stick seems to be clean. I received documentation from the dealer that sold me the car today and it shows that they replaced both the clutch disk and pressure plate. The salesman admitted to me that it has always had a shake taking off from first gear. Even after they replaced the parts, but no leaks

If the oil appears dirty it is from the transmission.

I still suspect there is oil on the clutch material. It does not take much to create the chatter in 1st gear. Was the flywheel turned when the clutch as out?

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I found your other thread and you posted this:

I just purchased A beautiful 1948 Buick Convertible that was advertised as having a new clutch. I can see some new parts under the hood, so I believe that at least some parts have been replaced. I just took it out for the first time and learned that there is a terrible shutter in both first gear and reverse. Also, the is gears are meshing when down shifting. But what really has me worried is the pancake size puddle of oil under the clutch housing. It is dripping from what looks like a weep hole at the bottom of the clutch housing. I am assuming that this is supposed to be plugged? I don't see any mention of it in the shop manual. It looks like engine oil. Any advice would be appreciated

So the puddle is under the bell housing were the clutch is located? If so, stop driving the car. You will run out of gear oil and be in much deeper than a gear oil leak and clutch replacement. No, the weep hole is to stay open.

If this is the area the oil is dripping from I can 100% guarantee the new clutch is covered in gear oil. The previous owner did not repair the actual issue of the leak that ruined the first clutch and what appears to be this new clutch.

One other item. I suspect your first gear is outfitted without a synchro. I have a 54 that is not synchro. Car must be at a full stop to engage 1st. I do not downshift under any circumstance from 3rd to 2nd that are synchro. I just don't find it necessary to stop the Buick with downshifting. Besides, a pair of brake shoes are cheaper than a new clutch or worse...busted gearbox.

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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Guest Blackpack

Thanks Chris, I think you are right, but we'll find out soon enough. I had the car towed to the mechanic this morning. I do hope if there is a bad seal, it's in the transmission. The dealership that sold me the car emailed all of the service records while they had the car. The mechanic and I reviewed them together this morning and he mentioned that they did not turn the flywheel, but he said it's not always necessary. He also said that it appears that they did not replace the throw out bearing and some other part I can't remember. I'm baffled because I bought this from a restoration shop. Why on earth would anyone go to the trouble of removing the clutch on this car and not replace these items? I'll keep you posted on what I learn, but I'm starting to have an ache in my wallet. I'm sure this is going to be expensive.

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I'm quite certain that is the issue. My 3 speed exhibited the exact same symptoms as your 3 speed. Tell tail signs of oil dripping from the bell housing weep hole. The oil appeared dirty compared to the crank case oil. The crank case oil was not lowering in level as you would expect if leaking. The clutch chattered in 1st and reverse. All other gears the clutch appeared to perform as it should. The dripping oil was really 90 weight gear oil. It had gotten to the point the clutch started slipping. When I pulled it down I found the seal on the input/main shaft was allowing the gear oil to spill out on the clutch.

As for the flywheel, yes it is not always necessary to turn the flywheel. Mine did not exhibit overheating cracks Just darkened spots from heat. These blemishes if present can make for poor clutch performance. I used a grinder pad to clean my flywheel. The front seal for the transmission I had to make. Simple enough donut shape of cork that worked splendidly. Yes, the throw-out and pilot bearing should have been replaced with new. Why take the time to do half the job correctly I will never understand(other than to save a few bucks.)

All told the clutch items plus odds and ends cost me $400.00. Fortunate I can do the work myself in my garage.

This is the inside of my bell housing. Enough gear oil this puppy will never rust in a million years.

post-83833-143143006928_thumb.jpg

Flywheel. You can see the darkened metal from slippage. I was able to just grinder pad it clean:

post-83833-143143006932_thumb.jpg

This was the simplest and cheap repair of the entire procedure. This tiny piece of cork cost pennies(I cut it myself actually) . Sorry for the blurry picture. Pay particular attention to this area with your transmission. This was the spot in my transmission that was allowing gear oil to migrate to the clutch.

post-83833-143143006935_thumb.jpg

I got all the clutch parts from Kanter.

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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Clutch pack and throughout bearing available from O'Reily Auto parts and elsewhere. Throughout bearing was just over 20.00. Clutch pack is 1995 Jeep Grad Jerokee 6cyl, disc and pressure plate around 125.00 +tax. Modern style pressure plate made clutch actuation feather lite with no slippage or grabbing(chatter).I installed in my 1939 Special coupe and my friend in his 1948 Super convertible, so around 150.00 unless you want to replace pilot bearing and for that I recommend the roller bearing type as opposed to the bronze oilite bushing type. Incredibly smooth, easy push in on the pedal made stick driving pleasant again. PM with additional questions, recent research produce nice results.

Thanks Chris, I think you are right, but we'll find out soon enough. I had the car towed to the mechanic this morning. I do hope if there is a bad seal, it's in the transmission. The dealership that sold me the car emailed all of the service records while they had the car. The mechanic and I reviewed them together this morning and he mentioned that they did not turn the flywheel, but he said it's not always necessary. He also said that it appears that they did not replace the throw out bearing and some other part I can't remember. I'm baffled because I bought this from a restoration shop. Why on earth would anyone go to the trouble of removing the clutch on this car and not replace these items? I'll keep you posted on what I learn, but I'm starting to have an ache in my wallet. I'm sure this is going to be expensive.
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Some say if these older Buicks don't have oil under them where they park they are prolly out of oil, Lol! Seriously they can be challenging to make leak free.If you need part numbers for replacement parts I can provide those if the local branch auto stores near you are unable to find them. There is a groove in the front shaft of the transmission that is meant to hold a circular cork seal, they can deteriorate and crumble away completely, and if one does not see that cork seal when the repairs are being made its easy to overlook bcuz the groove is shallow and could be overlooked. Check with Bobs Automobilia for that one.

Thank you 2carb40 for your advice. I will check the mounts and hope that is the problem. I do wonder though why there would be oil dripping from the weep hole at the rear of the transmission? Also, that oil is much darker than the oil showing on the engine dipstick, which makes me question if there is a leaking rear sear like another member suggested. Any ideas on that? Thanks again
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Guest Blackpack

You guys are awesome. Thanks for all the info. What's done is done, but I'm a little frustrated that I paid an inspection company to test drive the car before I bought it and obviously the inspector did not test drive the car. I probably would have bought the car knowing it had a chattering clutch, but would have paid a lot less. Lesson learned

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This groove on the input shaft that Greg mentioned is noted in this picture. You will see the black in color ring(circled in red) around the shaft by the bearing assembly(never mind the black rubber grommet at the tip of the input shaft it does not belong.) Yours is either gone or simply not up to the task anymore. This was the culprit on mine. However, I believe the manufacturer view this seal as problematic because the the 1955 manual does not have this groove and utilizes a donut type gaskets as I pictured above.

post-83833-143143008056_thumb.jpg

As far as costs, well, when she shifts and drives as designed the cost becomes a distant memory simply because you are overjoyed the 60 year old plus Buick is running as it should.

Keep us posted.

post-83833-14314300805_thumb.jpg

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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Guest Blackpack

Thanks again for all the help and pictures. I printed this thread out and drove it over to the mechanic. I know they probably hate people like me telling them how to do their job, but tine is money when you're having your car worked on and if this helps save time, I'm all for it.

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Thanks again for all the help and pictures. I printed this thread out and drove it over to the mechanic. I know they probably hate people like me telling them how to do their job, but tine is money when you're having your car worked on and if this helps save time, I'm all for it.

I'm certain the mechanic will appreciate the help on a 60 plus year old vehicle. I know I would! Keep us posted.

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Guest Blackpack

Hi Chris,

Actually, I called today since I had not heard back since dropping the car off last week and was told that every seal in the transmission is leaking and the clutch disk was ruined. He said they have ordered all of the seals and will wait for them to cone in before dropping the transmission. That should be Friday. One thing that concerned the mechanic was that he noticed that one of the bolts holding the flywheel on was longer than the others. He is concerned that the bolt could be hitting the back of the block, but won't know 100% until the flywheel is removed. I'm not too concerned about that because I'm sure it would have been making a racket when the engine was running. I hope to get the car back in a couple of weeks.

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It is as I suspected. Shame the work was put into it but the real issue(leaking seal) was not resolved at that time.

As far as the bolt...if it is hitting the block you certainly would have heard it as you stated!

Once the seals and clutch are in the shop the entire job does not take long. I did a complete clutch/tranny swap in my garage in about 10 hours. No air tools. On my back. ;)

Keep us posted.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Blackpack

Update on the 48 Super clutch problem. I stopped by to see the mechanic a couple of weeks ago and he said the seals were leaking and he was waiting on parts before he starting removing the transmission. He did get the seal kit and sent the transmission off to a local dealership where by chance, my friend works and was assigned this project. I stopped by last Friday to check on things and as you mentioned, it was the black seal that you pointed out above. He also mentioned something about another seal that's located around the spindal, but closer to the front of the case also being bad. Then I received a voicemail to call him this morning (never a good sign). He asked if the car had been going into gear okay and I explained to him that I had told the other mechanic that it was grinding in first and reverse. His reply was that the syncro gear had three broken teeth on it and the spring was completely missing. I'm beyond frustrated with both the restoration shop that sold me the car and the inspection service that I paid to not only inspect the car, but also to drive the car

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Guest Blackpack

Chris, this link takes me to a transmission that says it fits a 1940-1948 special but says it only fits 40-41 Super. Did they even have a Special 1940-1948?

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Chris, this link takes me to a transmission that says it fits a 1940-1948 special but says it only fits 40-41 Super. Did they even have a Special 1940-1948?

I don't know. I do know that the later 50's Buicks had two manuals. Once for Specials and a more beefy for the larger Buicks. Check the numbers on your casing and see if the seller can assist in getting a match. Make some measurements etc. Perhaps show this trans pictured to your guy who has yours now.

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Guest 53 Roady

There are 2 transmissions, the Special trans has 5 bolts in the top cover like the ones shown above. The Roadmaster trans is bigger with a 6 bolt top cover. Tailshafts may vary. I don' know about the Super but make sure you get one with the same number of cover bolts as yours.

Pat

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The Special (40 series) and the Super (50 series) share the same transmission. The roadmaster (70 series) transmission won't interchange.

There is supposed to be a tapered snap ring (bellevue washer) that fits into the bellhousing before the transmission is installed. If it is missing you may have issues with the trans slipping out of gear or clutch chatter.

Also make sure the shift linkage bushings are in good shape.

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The bellville washer (Clutch spring washer) fits behind the sleeve for the throwout bearing and in front of the input bearing - it puts force on the input bearing to hold it in place.

I'm pretty sure the shop manual points it out in the engine / clutch section. Very subtle

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The bellville washer (Clutch spring washer) fits behind the sleeve for the throwout bearing and in front of the input bearing - it puts force on the input bearing to hold it in place.

I'm pretty sure the shop manual points it out in the engine / clutch section. Very subtle

I will have to take a look. However, perhaps this changed from 48 to 54. I have a 54 Buick Special. My manual is a from a 55. They do interchange with the 54. The sleeve that the throw out bearing rides is separate from from the bell housing. When I took mine apart there was only a gasket between the sleeve and bell housing. When reassembled I noticed the sleeve was loose. Not knowing a bellevue washer might be called for I doubled my gasket. Once the bell housing and transmission were mated the sleeve was secure with no movement. What is strange, in my thread about this transmission swap, I noted that some type of springed type washer should be there. At any rate, the doubled gasket has done the trick. My manual shifts without issue. The clutch pedal is smooth. The leaking of the gear oil from the input shaft is repaired. Clutch chatter is resolved.

Here is my thread on it:

http://www.1954buick.com/showthread.php/9041-Diary-of-a-Special-Clutch.....?p=36631&viewfull=1#post36631

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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Guest Blackpack

Update...just got back from vacation expecting to pick my car up tomorrow only to learn that rushing the parts to my mechanic last Friday did absolutely no good because it's still not done. Might have needed to order more parts or something. I'm going to check on it tomorrow. I'm not too upset since the weather here in Indiana is still pretty crummy, but I've owned this car for three months now and I'd like to drive it some day.

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Update...just got back from vacation expecting to pick my car up tomorrow only to learn that rushing the parts to my mechanic last Friday did absolutely no good because it's still not done. Might have needed to order more parts or something. I'm going to check on it tomorrow. I'm not too upset since the weather here in Indiana is still pretty crummy, but I've owned this car for three months now and I'd like to drive it some day.

I understand the frustration. Getting parts that are incorrect, etc. Keep the faith!

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Guest 53 Roady

When I was a kid I drove a 57 Buick which I also drag raced. The tube that the pilot bearing rides on wobbled and let everything wobble and wear. Finally I had a machinist bore the bellhousing to accept a Ford throw out bearing tube and bearing retainer which bolted to the front of the transmission case. I know you guys aren't racing but this did and will end that problem if the washers and gaskets don't.

Pat

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